M3 vs Competition - factoring in Torque, Weight and Gearing

T Bone wrote

No, it doesn't at high speeds. Repeating it won't make it so.

Yes I have seen the "evidence". We all know dyno runs not reliable and in fact can be manipulated and we only see the best runs.

This is why I proffered the video of a 333 hp E46 M3 vs a stock 300 hp 335i, many variables are removed and it is real world. A 300 hp car is behaving as it should.

TB, you can't include video evidence as proof and then disregard other evidence just because you happen to disagree with it. The M6 vs RS4, 997 vs RS4, M5 vs RS6, etc, etc., I have been asked to provide evidence that Quattro isn't the power hunger animal you say it is and yet you either ignore it or dismiss it. You can't have your cake and eat.

Like I said I never once disagreed with the fact that in the long run the M3 would get the upper hand but I will always dismiss M5Board's video when the evidence goes against logic and in most of them that is what we see.

T Bone wrote

Against the 300 hp A6, the 300 hp is significantly faster across the board and if it is not the motor, what else is there?.

Check out the weight differences between an A6 4.2 and the 335i, then example the power and torque curve of each, that Audi wouldn't rev any higher than the 335i so there is no gearing advantage but the 335i will have torque everything in the rev range. The combination of weight and power/torque range of the 335i is the reason for it being quicker, it has nothing to do with the transmission what so ever.

I wanted to post these last two videos because their respective power and torque figures are identical. The Audi Allroad (1840kgs) is awd and the slightly lighter 530d (1735kgs) is rwd. Which is quickest to the 200km/h mark.

P.S.
I took the weight of the heaviest 530d, the touring, if it happened to be a saloon the weight would have been 1655kgs, that's a full 185kgs lighter.

My point is Quattro doesn't affect the performance the way you think it does and your hatred for the brand is clouding your judgement.

footie wrote

My point is Quattro doesn't affect the performance the way you think it does and your hatred for the brand is clouding your judgement.

I'm not quite sure how large TB thinks the effect is, but as I posted previously and Bruce and I both agreed on, for a car in the 400 hp range and about 10:1 lb/hp, Quattro is like 25 hp or a large passenger (~225 lb) compared to 2WD. These numbers are supported by dyno, simulation, loss calculations and real world results.

Given how close many of these vehicles are you will always be able to find video, magazine results or individual anecdotes of a reversal of what the average condition is.

Uhhhh, case closed? Seems it is to me.

swamp2 wrote

I'm not quite sure how large TB thinks the effect is, but as I posted previously and Bruce and I both agreed on, for a car in the 400 hp range and about 10:1 lb/hp, Quattro is like 25 hp or a large passenger (~225 lb) compared to 2WD. These numbers are supported by dyno, simulation, loss calculations and real world results.

Given how close many of these vehicles are you will always be able to find video, magazine results or individual anecdotes of a reversal of what the average condition is.

Uhhhh, case closed? Seems it is to me.

I have never doubted the figures that you and Bruce has agreed with, it sounds reasonable. I know how much having a decent sized person along side you makes and to speeds approaching 140mph it will amount to about 1.5 lengths to 2 lengths, that is it.

I just wished TB would put an end to his bias opinions on what Quattro does to the performance. I have no problems with his dislike of how they handle or that they are prone to understeer, there is no denying that one, if you push to soon in a corner it will understeer, plain and simple. But there is no way it's affects on it's acceleration amounts to the results seen in M5Board videos and the same goes for most of their stuff.

T Bone wrote

No, it doesn't at high speeds. Repeating it won't make it so.

Looking at the numbers posted up by this group (that footie just displayed), you're clearly and obviously wrong. Again.

T Bone wrote

Yes I have seen the "evidence". We all know dyno runs not reliable and in fact can be manipulated and we only see the best runs.

Disagree entirely, but how about trap speeds? How does a 300 HP, 3700 pound vehicle get to 104 -106 mph in a quarter mile?

T Bone wrote

This is why I proffered the video of a 333 hp E46 M3 vs a stock 300 hp 335i, many variables are removed and it is real world. A 300 hp car is behaving as it should.

I've already said that the E46 M3 is marginally faster, and why. You offer that street race as some sort of proof? Did you happen to hear the rubber burning at the start? Which do you figure would suffer less under those conditions - sophisticated posi or open rear? Give me a break.

T Bone wrote

Against the 300 hp A6, the 300 hp is significantly faster across the board and if it is not the motor, what else is there?

It IS the motor, but as already completely described, it's also the weight and gearing.

Look, if you have a reading disability, just let me know, and I'll lay off you right now.

T Bone wrote

Hey did you call out the testing methodology error in one of the rags where they posted a 124 mph trap speed??

Yes.

T Bone wrote

111 mph to 115 mph is about right for a 480 hp car.

111 mph is way low for 480 hp and 4000 pounds, 115 is getting close. 116-117 is about right.

Bruce

bruce.augenstein@comcast. wrote

Looking at the numbers posted up by this group (that footie just displayed), you're clearly and obviously wrong. Again.

Wow. You just love to make definitive statements and assertions.

Explain the M5board videos please. I would love to hear your explanations.

I've already said that the E46 M3 is marginally faster, and why. You offer that street race as some sort of proof? Did you happen to hear the rubber burning at the start? Which do you figure would suffer less under those conditions - sophisticated posi or open rear? Give me a break.

I don't understand your comment. You seem to dismiss videos / arguments that I present and make assertive statements affirming your own position.

Look, if you have a reading disability, just let me know, and I'll lay off you right now.

My reading disability is clearly surpassed by your social ineptitude.

We have not convinced each other of anything - this is a dead end.

T Bone wrote

...Explain the M5board videos please. I would love to hear your explanations.

I don't have any explanations, since I haven't watched them. I assume they are of runs showing M3s beating 335s, or other M3s beating RS4s, or whatever other drum you may be beating. Doesn't matter, since in those videos you don't know about the drivers or the cars, so you're in an uncontrolled environment. I personally would never use such crap in support of a position, and consider anyone who views this stuff with utter faith to be a few watts short of full brightness.

Feel free to continue your own faith, though.

T Bone wrote

My reading disability is clearly surpassed by your social ineptitude.

I'll take the social ineptitude criticism since it comes in the same sentence where you admit to a reading disability.

OK, that explains a bunch, and I guess we're done.

Bruce

mixja wrote

Interestingly the manual transmission has shorter gearing for 1st gear, which in theory should see it launch quicker off the line if executed correctly.

Did I read this wrong? Doesn't the DCT have shorter gearing (4.78) then the 6MT (4.06) in first, thus allowing for the DCT, not the 6MT, to get the early lead.

Apologies if this has been discussed. I didn't read through the 5 pages.

nice write up

I drove both the DTC & 6 Speed. Why did the 6 Speed feel a lot faster??
Plus my friend raced his (stock) 6 speed M3 with another DTC & won? 2010 6S vs 2009 DTC?

All this straight line and dyno testing is a bunch of Horse shit. To think in 08 someone was dyno racing cars? doesnt a dyno give every single car an amazingly awesome launch with 100% traction??

DCT is faster around a track but i still love heel toeing my manual gearbox. I should be sleeping.

My car is faster than yours!! Lol. Ridiculous. Learn to drive first.

swamp2 wrote

Ugh, sorry, the proper link is here.

Lol, you're thinking about visiting the Min Gei museum in SD ? cool stuff.