Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[shakywarrior]

Originally Posted by bvrider1

So the guy you bought it from said he had the bearings done?

If not then for two years and 66k miles under your ownership you didn't consider it?

Any sane S65 owner considers this everyday if it hasn't been done. It was never done which I obviously was okay with.

& It's wasnt 2 years. I've owned the car since May 2016 daily driven. Before that I had a 180k S54; OE bearings.

You can see where I'm going with this...

I was going off my previous experience & the thought; "Common bro, if they were gonna go, they would have by now."

Hope that answers your back handed question.

[bvrider1]

It wasn't a back handed question. I am sorry if it came off that way.

Still, 66,000 miles and you are in shock.

We are on page 114 of this thread. I am shocked any S65 owner is shocked that their bearing went out.

I think that is a fair statement to make. Again, sorry if this comes out wrong.

Originally Posted by shakywarrior

Any sane S65 owner considers this everyday if it hasn't been done. It was never done which I obviously was okay with.

& It's wasnt 2 years. I've owned the car since May 2016 daily driven. Before that I had a 180k S54; OE bearings.

You can see where I'm going with this...

I was going off my previous experience & the thought; "Common bro, if they were gonna go, they would have by now."

Hope that answers your back handed question.

[shakywarrior]

Originally Posted by bvrider1

It wasn't a back handed question. I am sorry if it came off that way.

Still, 66,000 miles and you are in shock.

We are on page 114 of this thread. I am shocked any S65 owner is shocked that their bearing went out.

I think that is a fair statement to make. Again, sorry if this comes out wrong.

Maybe I worded it wrong as well.

When I say in shock. It's more of, "WOW I can't believe I can't drive the car I love anymore." More of an emotional tie when I say shocked.

We're all on the same team here, my bad.

[Assimilator1]

Maybe you meant gutted rather than shocked .

[msan]

Seems like a good deal on a used engine depending on the reserve price. Seller has good feedback and a 30 day warranty

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F233488511187

[Assimilator1]

Except he's telling you to change virtually everything attached to the engine to keep the warrantee! Something's make sense, but many don't, like the flywheel, radiator, & oil pan (assuming it's intact).
Personally I think he's drawn that list up to use any excuse to weasel out of the warrantee!

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Except he's telling you to change virtually everything attached to the engine to keep the warrantee! Something's make sense, but many don't, like the flywheel, radiator, & oil pan (assuming it's intact).
Personally I think he's drawn that list up to use any excuse to weasel out of the warrantee!

Don't forget the oil pickup tube (in this engine's case - both tubes)...

Rear and front main seals? Really? Timing chains and sliders?

By the time you complete the list, you have pretty much rebuilt the engine...

Very strange.

[pbonsalb]

In other words, there is no warranty.

[shakywarrior]

** Has anyone successfully gotten away with replacing bearings after knock?? **

Like I said, it did stop knocking after sitting for some time.

Yes I know the only way to tell *FOR SURE* is pull the pan and inspect the crank; however I'm just trying to weigh the odds..Maybe it's worth the risk if it's been done successfully before.

Pulling the pan just to find out the crank is done would suck considering the cost of that. Plus the shop I'd take it to is 40+ miles away....so I am including a tow bill in the cost...not to mention the time spent to set up & be there for transportation of the car...

[pbonsalb]

One person did and the car is still running. If it was me, I would remove the bearings to inspect and go from there. If there is damage, there is no point in putting it back together.

What other option do you have? Learn to DIY? If it needs a used engine then buy one, change the bearings and swap it in or sell the car at a loss and move on.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by shakywarrior

** Has anyone successfully gotten away with replacing bearings after knock?? **

There have been more than a few cases where it didn't fix the knock. Each one that i remember probably carmax'd the car shortly after.

There was one person as mentioned above that said it did stop knock, but his character was suspect so I'm not sure how much it can be trusted. He could have just been lying to save face or protect a future sale.

If I had to make a number up, I'd say 9 times out of 10 if it's already knocking new bearings will not resolve it. There could be a very small chance that it was caught with minimal knock/damage and shut down right away, but it seems pretty unlikely.

Best way is to tear it down and see how things look.

[msan]

Originally Posted by shakywarrior

** Has anyone successfully gotten away with replacing bearings after knock?? **

Like I said, it did stop knocking after sitting for some time.

Yes I know the only way to tell *FOR SURE* is pull the pan and inspect the crank; however I'm just trying to weigh the odds..Maybe it's worth the risk if it's been done successfully before.

Pulling the pan just to find out the crank is done would suck considering the cost of that. Plus the shop I'd take it to is 40+ miles away....so I am including a tow bill in the cost...not to mention the time spent to set up & be there for transportation of the car...

Maybe this motor? $5k shipped! 139k miles but the warranty items seems decent.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2008-2009-2...MAAOSwhbZePJl1

I would send it to a shop to replace rod bearings and have them inspect it. If no bueno activate the warranty .

[Assimilator1]

And that one appears to have decent warrantee conditions, unlike the previous one!
Although more than double the (alleged) mileage, & shorter warrantee.

[ItsGary]

not an S65 but my friends F12 M6 spun a bearing xd

[Assimilator1]

Hadn't done much on the list check until recently, not added many more as I went back through my list to add some missing useful information.
Anyway, this is the part of the list I've gone through so far:-

Number of failed engines (cause stated where known), from this thread:-
1.maicol76 - confirmed main bearings failed, 29k kms (18k miles) (RBs condition unknown)
2.RenoE92M3 - confirmed rod bearings failed, 43k miles, BMW replaced engine (main's condition unknown)
3.zOOm - confirmed engine blew up "Piston went through engine block" (likely rod bearings), 59k miles
4.MathewDavid - NOT blown up! Ticking noise later went away!
5.Gatchaman - confirmed rod & main bearings, 5.6k! miles
6.I LOVE MY M3 - NOT blown up! Premature wear to rod & bearings, more info here https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=24 , motor stripped due to noises.
7.taleof2bricks - confirmed blown engine, rod thrown, failed rod bearings, 28k miles
8.DLSJ5 - conf blown engine, but due to oil leak from supercharger! Ran out of oil! Plus had high boost! Not RB issue.
9.armorrig - not confirmed! No evidence or post of a blown engine.
10.elmariachi (aka? satinghostrider) - conf.pistons broken + unknown amount of bearing wear, possibly due to detonation
11.h4nh - confirmed engine blew up in a later post, supercharged & run 89/91 fuel!
12.Brooklyn Mark - likely blown but not confirmed, 38k miles, supercharged, forum banned him 4/2014
13.e90m3_6MT - confirmed blown engine, broken con-rod etc, 107k km, 66.5k miles
14.Boxed - confirmed (by BMW) rod bearings worn out, bearings replaced MY 2011 (no more info)
15.jacobe92 - confirmed rod bearing failure, 31k miles, (no more info)
16.Sti2e92sedan - confirmed seized engine but NOT by RBs, failed oil pump
17.M3NST3R - confirmed blown engine, 47k miles, MY 2008, replaced by BMW (no more info)
18.Canadian - confirmed spun rod bearings, 6.3k! miles, repaired by BMW (did some track days[not noted previous track mentions])
19.zgirl1999 - unknown, website gone
20.bigtracing - confirmed failed rod bearings, 96k
21.Artem@ONEighty - confirmed bearings failed, but unsure which, 28k, engine replaced by BMW
22.Elvace - not confirmed! The photos of 3 RBs he did take show modest wear, additionally he had a broken clutch plate which was almost certainly the source of the noise in the video! 105k kms(65.2k miles)
23.kinnsella - confirmed rod bearigs failed, 35k, BMW replaced engine with a reman unit
24.HapaM3 - confirmed rod bearigs failed, 47k, (some tracking)
25.JDATX - confirmed rod bearings failed, 39k miles, replaced under BMW warranty
26.amg893 - confirmed rod & main bearings failed, 90k kms(56k miles)
27.foolio2 - confirmed engine failure (video of car sounds like rod bearings knocking. Engine not stripped), 6.7k!, BMW replaced engine
28.brandfay - confirmed rod broke (likely due to rod bearings failure), 20k miles, BMW replaced under warranty
29.Agent Orange, name changed(?) to Morally Gray - confirmed main bearing failure! Supercharged, suspicions fall on the supercharger though. 70k kms(43.5k miles), 2010 MY
30.Maybe 5 other cases in Oz?? - not confirmed, no specific reports
31.Crusher - confirmed, 20k miles, 2012 MY, BMW replaced under warranty - NEED FURTHER INFO
32.e93 jonesy - confirmed bearings failed (possibly mains), no car info, BMW replaced under warranty
33.BMW Fanatik - confirmed engine failure, rods 3 & 5 broken, but big suspicion of other factors, his engine definitely died, but it may have originally been damaged by being hydraulically locked from sucking water in a "massive puddle"!, 12k kms!(7.5k miles),somehow he got it done under warranty!
34.stubble88 - (name corrected) confirmed bearings failed (unknown which), 20k, replaced by BMW, reman engine, slightly changed link https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=226
35.mkoesel - likely rod bearings failed - video produced, sounds like a big end knocking (not belt noise lol!), engine wasn't stripped down during his ownership, sold on as is, 95k miles.
36.REDBULL - confirmed blown engine (no further info), 23k miles, 2010 MY
37.TL866 (3 cases in Spain) corrected linkhttps://www.m3post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16515302&postcount=523 - not confirmed, in Spanish! (may Google translate later)
38.TrakBch - aka Master P! confirmed blown engine, rod bearings seized & broken conrod, 63.7k miles, 2008 MY, some tracking https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=963103
39.JRLittle - confirmed broken rod, 500 miles!! 2010 MY. Possible contributory factor, RPM run in limit exceeded. 2010 MY
40.magicknife - confirmed engine failure, replaced by BMW under warranty, cause unknown other than a very loud noise
41.neilm3 - not confirmed, initial failure not due to RBs, headgasket failed which lead to coolant mixing with oil subsequently destroying RBs.
42.LoonR1 - confirmed engine failure, likely bearing failure (swarf in engine), 33.5k miles, 2011 MY, BMW replaced under warranty
43.Malek@MRF - confirmed RBs failed 38k miles, 2011 MY, was running 0w/40 oil for last 15k miles. Better link showing pics of RBs & crank https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=672
44.Five potential cases in Bahrain by 0-60Motorsports - not confirmed, no links, no real info, nothing!
45.antonio010 - confirmed engine failure, due to bearing failure (mentions both mains & rod bearings), 90k miles,2008 MY
46.oreokid24 - confirmed RB failure, BMW replaced engine under warranty, 35k miles, 2011 MY
47.fer316 (4 in Europe) - not confirmed yet, in Spanish, may translate it later.
48.tar0d - confirmed RB failure, 60k kms (37k miles), 2008 MY,
49.tobilli - confirmed RB failure, 90k kms (56k miles), 2009 MY
50.ellekz - confirmed RB failue, 47k miles, 2009 MY, https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...7&postcount=90
51.BMW M3 Guy - confirmed RB failure, 55k miles, 2008 MY, repaired by BMW under goodwill!
52.JYTSky - confirmed bearing failure (which unknown), 36k miles, 2011 MY, BMW repaired under warranty
53.M33DDIE - confirmed engine failure, cause unknown, but piston was removed from original engine to inspect, 35k miles, 2008 MY
54.PERFM3(renamed PerfM5) - confirmed bearing failure, mileage unknown, 2008 MY, covered by 3rd party warranty
55.mtecnic - confirmed blown engine (crank/rods failure), 70k miles, 2008 MY, covered by CPO party warranty (car tracked)
56.xccess - confirmed blown engine (likely bearings/rods), 88k miles, 2008 MY,
57.vmudry - confirmed RBs failed, 56k miles, 2008 MY
58.theboss1853 - confirmed RBs failed, 60k miles, 2008 MY
59.ellekz - confirmed RBs failed, ~45k miles, 2nd (used) engine!
60.avusm3 - confirmed engine failure (seized), unknown cause, 44k miles, 2011 MY
61.Oxymoron - confirmed engine failure (seized main bearings), 32k miles, 2011 MY, BMW replaced under goodwill
62.Antonio1988 - confirmed RB seized, 31k miles, 2012, BMW replaced under warrantee
63.IIAp3x - confirmed RB failure, 55k miles, 2008, replaced by BMW, mostly covered with 3rd party (Premier Dealer Services) warrantee
64.maloo - reports of RBs failed on an M3 featured in the 'Boston Bimmer' magazine (not available online).
65.SHADY1 - Eurotic of Houston - confirmed blown engine, pictures of broken rod & piston
66.TTO898 - confirmed blown engine, unknown cause, 15k miles, engine replaced under warrantee
67.Gabergab - confirmed blown engine at 65k kms(40.4k miles), engine replaced by BMW, 4 mths out of warrantee, 70% goodwill payment, tracked regularly
68.Ging - confirmed blown engine but NOT rod bearings, this was a rare case of a rod breaking (Arrow rods, bearings were free), 24k kms (14.9k miles), forced induction (7.5 PSI).
69.Zzhou - confirmed blown engine (block holed), 42k miles, tracked 5-6 times per yr, another forum member states he saw his car in the dealer & they told him the RBs had failed - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...4&postcount=58
(not his friends car, although he states that blew up too with rod bearing failure, no further info given)
70.bqureshi - confirmed rod bearing failure, 57k miles, 2009, pics - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1092
71.2jzinsider - confirmed blown engine, failed bearings (unknown which), 62k miles, 2011
72.serg87 (now AdonM3) - confirmed blown engine due to RB failure, replaced under warrentee, 48k miles, 2011
73.serj.ru - confirmed failed RBs, crank & some pistons damaged, 63k kms (39k miles), 2008
74.Grk_M3 - confirmed failed RBs, scored cylinders, no more info.
75.Pepper135i - confirmed engine failed, 20k miles, 2012, BMW replaced engine under warrantee, no more info
76.WkboardAtx - confirmed RB failure & blown engine, 80k miles, 2008, (occured whilst driven by dealer!), no further info, direct link http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=542393
77.Thekhwaj - confirmed RB bearing failure, 22k miles, 2012, final confirmation of failed RBs here - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1248610 ,serviced every 5k.
78.MrFeisty - confirmed rod bearing failure, 80k kms (50k miles), 2010
79.BostonS65 - confirmed engine failure, but unknown cause (but 'metal everywhere' inside engine & 1 cyl down on compression), 3.1k miles!, 2013
80.chamoloco - confirmed engine failure, but uncertain cause, he possibly describes a big end knock but says the small end bearings were 'worn out'!
81.///MTex - rod bearing failure, 57k miles, 2009, (better link) https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1086 , photos https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1092
82.turbomaniac - confirmed failed rod bearings (includes pics), 56k miles, 2008 , corrected link https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...2#post19664522
83.Omni2702 - confirmed bearings failed but due to oil pump failure, 52k miles, 2008,
84.335m - confirmed RBs failed, ~60k miles, 2008, no further info
85.CHIEFKIEF - confirmed RBs failed, 30k miles, 2009, no further
86.ifly747 - siezed engine, 83k miles, 2009, metal in oil sample thought to be from bearings, no more info
87.MFKN3 - confirmed RBs failed ('rod knock'), he states of 3 other local (Aus) M3s with bearing failure, no further info.
88.decimation1 - confirmed failed bearings (spun), 80k miles, 2008 - extra info here https://www.m3post.com/forums/conver...5815&u2=258246
89.Bel-Tirid's friend - confirmed his car's RBs failed, no further info
90.MPACT - confirmed spun bearings 1 & 5, 67k miles, 2011, supercharged, 2nd engine spun same bearings along with no1 mains damaged! Suspicions fall on an issue with the supercharger installation causing no1 mains failure on both. Info & pics here https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...25&postcount=1
91.williemandowa - confirmed RBs failed, 101k miles, some tracking, no further info
92.Sonny-Heyman (reported by aussiem3) - confirmed blown engine (windowed block), 160k kms (100k miles), 2010, no further info
93.Sascha Ernst (reported by ///M Power-Belgium) - confirmed blown engine (windowed block), 65k kms (40.4k miles), no further info
94.chief - confirmed blown engine (windowed block, thrown conrod) but caused by a stuck open injector, see here https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...57&postcount=4, 69k miles, 2008, pictures here https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...4#post20783124
95.Page Not Found - confirmed bearings failed (unknown cause, never posted the update thread he mentioned) 53k miles, 2010
96.Squartus - confirmed bearings failed (no1 mains & adjacent RBs), engine 61k miles, this 2nd set (WPC rod bearings) 30k miles, supercharged, crank photo here https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...3#post20356443
97.bxchino_m3 - confirmed blown engine only, no other info at all! (user banned 10/2018)
98.HeaTHeR_aK - confirmed blown engine only, no other info at all!
99.Wtlitng - confirmed failed RBs, 19k miles, 2011 (engine replaced by BMW), no more info
100.ase2dais - inconclusive, reported 'tic-tic' noise could've been anything, although car was replaced after 2 failed repair attempts. 2008, no further info
101.chuckster (not Fazerboy, he just linked it) - confirmed RBs failed, 68k miles, 2008,
102.e92Mjunky - negative, nothing about a blown engine, but he put an S65 into an e46 M3!
103.M3ForMe93 - confirmed RB failure, 140k miles, 2008, pics of the engine out https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1325498
104.Rahstar - confirmed RB failure(no.5), 85k miles, 2008
105.houston - only confirmed engine seized, 17k miles, 2011, no further info.
106.JFWM3 - confirmed blown engine (block holed, thrown rods), ~105k kms (65k miles) intial post incorrect, 2008, supercharged, correct mileage & a little more info here https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1509701
107.E92NJM3 - holed piston due to a failed injector!, nothing to do with bearings.
108.romemmy - confirmed engine blown, broken con rod due to seized RBs (possibly caused by a failed main bearing), supercharged, no further info.
109.OnAFriday - confirmed bearing failure, suspected but not confirmed RBs, 53k miles, 2008,
110.Doc Oc's friend - confirmed main bearing failure, dinan pulley was on engine (so supercharged?), no further info
111.jobe - confirmed main bearing failure, 54k miles, 2009
112.Seattle Craig's List Post - dead link
113.M3E90SF - confirmed RBs failed , 42k miles, 2008, engine replaced by BMW (partiall good will). Op deleted his post in the original thread, but confirms RBs in this later FS thread https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1391761
114.jaye92 - confirmed RB failure, 2008, no further info
115.dpdoughty - confirmed blown engine (broken conrod), 82k miles, 2008,
116.Hovig24 - confirmed RB failure, 53k miles, 2008
117.grantwoodOK - confirmed RB failure, 70k miles, 2011
118.SSR Performance customer - confirmed bearings failed (not stated which) & crank damaged , 78k miles, no further info
119.tacoman - confirmed RBs failed (seized engine, whilst at dealer!), 36k miles, 2010
120.Twosevennine - confirmed RBs failed (rod knock), no further info
121.EYXB - confirmed RBs failed, 92k kms (57k miles), 2012, corrected link https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...36&postcount=1
122.Twosevennine - duplicated entry
123.GSTE34 - confirmed blown engine (rod thrown), 88k miles, 2008, but NOT due to RBs but a rod bolt falling out! additional info from https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=17
124.benbejamin18 - confirmed engine failed, likely RBs, 62k miles, 12/2007
125.LatifE90 - confirmed RBs failed (engine replaced), 60k miles, 2009, further info from here https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=21
126.Ruben7520 (name changed to M4_Ronin) - confirmed RBs failed, no further info (possibly formely owned by DreamTime? - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=61 )
127.EAS customer - confirmed RB failure (incl. photos, appear to be LCI bearings), 120k miles, no further info
128.M3ANMACHINE, wrong person & link, it's aptwave - confirmed main bearings failed & seized engine, 31k miles, 2012, correct link https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...59&postcount=1 , photos - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...1&postcount=48
129.yeah_knee - confirmed RB failure, 108k miles, 2008 https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=208
130.besiktas - only confirmed 'bearing is gone', no further info!
131.Duk996 - confirmed main bearings failed, 50k miles, 2011, RBs rough but not failed photos - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=115 https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=150 https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=187
132.Nugget - confirmed main bearings failed, estimate of 5k kms on new RBs, photos - https://postimg.cc/gallery/2d18xm4xg/
133.maxe93 (now Maxf80M3) - confirmed blown engine but not RBs! No3 piston melted (unknown cause), 150k kms (93.2k miles) - also, corrected link https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...78&postcount=1
134.jonshmoe - confirmed bearings failed (unknown which), 97k miles, 2008, no further info
135.zeemy - only confirmed major engine fault (serious knock, likely RBs), 80k miles, 2008, no further info.
136.Inflame's boss - confirmed RBs failed, 46k miles, 2011, no further info.
137.spr - alternate thread shows their was nothing wrong with the engine! (wth?) https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1472011
138.fastmvr - confirmed bearings failed (not stated which, indicates RBs), 109k miles, 2008, better link https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...2&postcount=76
139.Nilick - confirmed RBs failed, 45k miles, 2011, no further info
140.Jmags41 - confirmed broken con rod, 50k miles, 2012, supercharged for 25k, no further info
141.deansbimmer - confirmed broken conrod, bought as a parts car, no further info

185. Kobaiyashi - conf, 136k

Missing reports :-

williocom, dead engine (no further info), 20k miles, BMW replaced under warranty https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...2&postcount=16

radiantm3 - confirmed , 61k miles, RBs originally changed at 17k! More info? https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=109

surewin - confirmed failed RBs, 62k miles (photos plus oil report) https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=256

anerbe - confirmed spun rod bearings, 54k miles,(oil reports) - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=967
CrucialScott - blown engine, unconfirmed RBs - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=205

Total 191 reports (to shakeywarrior) @26/2/20

[Assimilator1]

Gone through more of the list. Finally catching up!

Deansbimmer
Any more info on that parts car? (year, mileage, what caused rod failure?).

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Gone through more of the list. Finally catching up!

Deansbimmer
Any more info on that parts car? (year, mileage, what caused rod failure?).

I haven't had any parts cars in months. Not sure which post you're referencing but I'm sure it's old and no longer relevant to any current inventory.

[Assimilator1]

This one

Just curious for data gathering purposes, info would still be useful .

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

This one

Just curious for data gathering purposes, info would still be useful .

I don't remember the specifics, it was too long ago. It was an 08 sedan with around 80k if I remember correctly.

[Assimilator1]

Ok thanks, and no worries

[Assimilator1]

On a different point, I saw you say here (amongst other places), that when bearings fail the metal debris can get into the VANOS & throughout the engine.
How does it get past the oil filter?

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

On a different point, I saw you say here (amongst other places), that when bearings fail the oil can get into the VANOS & throughout the engine.
How does it get past the oil filter?

Under high flow demands or situations where the filter cannot flow enough to maintain pressure in the galleries, oil bypasses the filter via a valve in the filter housing. It's one of the background reasons to let your car warm up and driven at reduced rpms after cold start- it allows the oil to be cycled through and filtered without bypass.

Oil schematic here, page 44,45:
https://www.m3post.com/goodiesforyou...nformation.pdf