Login
![]() |
|
![]() |
|
Post Reply |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
02-26-2020, 04:54 PM | #1 |
First Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 121
Rep 370
Posts |
S65 Oil reports collation (most with rod bearing photos) - does oil analysis work?
I started this list for myself a few months back when I heard a few comments that bearings had failed or were dangerously worn & oil reports had failed to show any problems. To be honest, I didn't really believe them, how could metal being shed not be picked up??
I expressed some doubt that they could miss problems, but largely stayed quiet about it & decided to gather some data. I was expecting to find that the oil reports were done long before the failure/bearing change, or that the bearings weren't in fact dangerously worn (referring to lead/copper bearings only, & by dangerously worn I mean showing copper). And to start with, that's what I found, although largely I was finding oil reports with high lead levels & when bearings were pulled, their were shot, like these. Oil analysis confirmed bad bearings nholmes - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=17 and https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1237264 - 2 bearings just gone through to copper, 2k miles on oil, 103k miles. tom @eas - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...58&postcount=2 , (3 bearings showing copper & 2 of them breaking up!) 106k miles. tom @eas - oil report - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...1#post15421907 - bearing photos (Bmw M3 Guy's car) - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...5#post15421055 , 53k miles. tom @eas - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=389 (surewin's car) 63k miles. L4ces - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=84 Oil report https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=89 , pb 24ppm, Fe 17. 0/40 was used for last 100k miles) 145k miles. Richbot - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=681 (actually don't look that bad, no copper showing!) 102.4k miles. Peertwelve - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=187 (although oil report not shown, pb 30ppm) 39k miles. mmbv1000 - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=394 (although oil report not shown, "higher-than-average" levels of lead) 60.5k miles. tubedreamer - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=558 (report shows pb 18ppm, shells fairly badly worn but no copper showing) 43k miles. TheBreeze - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=563 (report not shown, but pb went from 4 to 10ppm between reports), copper not showing, but bearings quite worn. 87.8k miles. willie92 - https://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/threa.../#post-2843648 (4 bearings to copper, pb 48) 65k miles. radiognome - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=838 - Oil reports 'constantly showed higher than usual metals', bearings quite worn but not through to copper. 68k miles Imapastokitshc - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=858 - 2000km oil report showed pb 19ppm, many bearings through to copper, 1 almost completely. 57k kms, 35.4k miles. PRJ - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1007 - a few just gone through to copper. 41k miles. LeveragedTiger - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1135 - 1 just worn through to copper 3k miles later. 37.1k miles tom @eas - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1338 - alu brgs, report showing slightly elevated levels (including lead bizarrely!), 17k miles. Yoko22R - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...99&postcount=5, bearings not quite through to copper, 27k miles. bvrider1 - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1337803, some bearings showing copper, 77k miles at oil report, bearings changed at 84k miles. kimiraikkonen - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=731 (preventatively changed, 1 bearing scored by debris & showing a little copper. Earlier reports showed elevated lead). 118k miles. M3MPH1S - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1520, (2 bearings showing copper, pb 18) 163k miles! Silos - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1583 - elevated lead, copper & iron, changed preventatively, 3 bearings mostly down to copper! 97k miles amrazM - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...07&postcount=1 , approx 1/2 the bearings worn to copper (run in service missed!), slightly elevated levels of Iron & Lead. Advised further investigation due to metals showing over just 500 miles! 40k miles (on that 2nd engine). ************************************************** ************************************************** **************** Oil analysis advised caution & to recheck in near future wfdecon88 - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...6&postcount=24 - oil report, Pb/cu 32/3 ppm. Photos https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1562310 major wear to lead but no copper visible. 99k miles. da jemstar - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1778 - last oil report, pb/cu 17/2 ppm, bearings heavily worn and some showing copper on the edges. ************************************************** ************************************************** **************** Photos &/or oil analysis report, no claim either way anerbe - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=967 - spun bearings, elevated pb on 2 reports! High copper on final one. Comments not shown for report prior to spun bearings. 54k miles. kevin @ eas https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=429 - high wear & some bearings juust showing copper, oil report @75.6k miles pb 6, (note significant gap between report and RB change), bearings changed @80k miles. XKxRome0ox - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=726 - oil report was done 4640 miles before the bearings were changed, the old bearings were very worn, but don't appear to be showing copper. Bearings changed at 58.7k miles. ************************************************** ************************************************** **************** Getting close now to missing failures, but not quite!...... Oil analysis stated bearings ok & although they are significantly worn, they weren't through to copper. blueliner - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=937 (preventatively changed @46k miles) ThatM3guy - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1256 (preventatively changed @120k miles). s14_kev - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=777 - high wear, but no copper showing, report lead levels very slightly raised, comments conclude ok. Preventatively changed @110k miles. ************************************************** ************************************************** **************** These 2 could be said as failed & missed by the reports, but I decided they just barely fell into the camp of not dangerously worn, especially subjective these 2 I know! Oil analysis stated bearings were ok, were heavily worn but not majorly showing copper lyzmi - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=673 (1 bearing showing a little bit of copper, report showed a slight pb spike 5k miles earlier) preventatively changed @66k miles. kimiraikkonen - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=731 - (high wear, although mostly not through to copper, 1 had a score to copper. Report levels ok, comments not shown). 118k miles. ************************************************** ************************************************** **************** These 4 are in a grey area if you considered the levels & comments, the comments said ok, but IMO the levels were elevated. If you went by the comments conclusion, you could say they missed bad bearings. Oil analysis said ok, but pb & Cu levels elevated + shells heavily worn or failed stevecm3 - https://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/threa...esults.200149/ - although given all clear, report (Millers 5/18) shows pb was 20 ppm & Cu 9ppm, 4 shells to copper! 84k miles. greg_p - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=980 - although given all clear, advised to retest in 1k miles due to raised pb levels. Pb was 22 ppm & Cu 8ppm, a few just gone through to copper, 35k miles. (Millers 2/19, maybe they tweaked their policy??). Barnzzz - https://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/threa...2#post-2883365 - no pics or photos there, says report had elevated copper but 'nothing to worry about', shells gave out 2k miles later (had an injector stick open, then another shortly after!, some months prior to shell failure). In a PM he states pb 41ppm & Cu 31 ppm! Post to link to video of shells - https://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/threa...2#post-2885098 80k miles. Burns - https://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/threa.../#post-3011914 - elevated pb, cu and Fe on just 2.2k miles, yet Millers state 'ok'! Photos show copper in many bearings and one bearing breaking up! ************************************************** ************************************************** **************** These were the final clincher for me (I found them late on in my hunting btw). Oil analysis can miss failed bearings! ***Confirmed analysis missed bad bearings*** delirium330 - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1300528 - Cu/Pb at 1 & 2, yet 1 bearing to copper!! Oil life 3092 miles. Bearings changed just ~1500 miles after report. 62k miles IIAp3x - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...3&postcount=11 (no photos of engine, but states that it blew up 1k after report! Photo of report), Pb/Cu 12/2 ppm. His extensive thread - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1119912 55k miles. MMachines - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=2109 - shells 4-8U have partially worn through to copper, last oil report (at 84,079 miles shows Pb/Cu at 3/2 ppm), later oil report - View post on imgur.com note on his reports, 'mileage' switches from Kms to miles at 2017, 84.3k miles.sv848evo - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=736 - unknown mileage on oil, but more than 2800 miles. 1 bearing mostly worn through to copper! And a few others just gone through to copper. Oil report, pb 7ppm, Cu 3ppm, bearings changed 1k miles later. 75k miles. His photos :- ************************************************** ************************************************** **************** So their you have it, whilst my data collection is relatively small (it still took months to find & collate!, & I will add to it, last list update 22/3/20), it does show that oil analysis won't necessarily pick up problems. How/why? Mostly, & probably predominantly because the high wear rate occurred at some point before the oil report(s). The only way it can be reliable is if the reports are done from the very 1st oil change, from new onwards! (I found 1 owner who nearly did this, & he posted the results here, can't remember his name [update], I believe it was someone in the 'Oil Analysis Reports' thread (starts in 2009! Which btw is a good read if you want to get an overview of many oil reports), I'll have to go through it to see who it was. Might have been MTROIS, op of the thread, multiple reports combined here. For reference m6pwr posted What's in our Castrol 10w-60 TWS' & run in service oil analysed. If you change your rod bearings (with lead/copper ones) & then oil test with every oil change, then yea you can keep a good eye on them, but it won't necessarily pick up other problems (e.g high main bearing wear, unless you changed them too of course). Oh incidentally, Iam FODI (whose now posted below), said that it's possible for metal particles to be broken down into such small or big particles that it would be missed by regular oil analysis anyway. I haven't been able to look into this particularly, so I don't know how likely that is. I may look into that further, but as I've decided not to rely on oil reports anyway it has a low priority for me. And I'm going to change the rod bearings anyhow on mine. Btw, my background to this is that I bought a 2008 M3 e92 in November as my weekend/fair weather/occasional track car ![]() ![]() I joined the forum just before getting it, so a few of you know me now, thanks for all the input & PMs guys! ![]() ![]() ![]() I've owned BMWs since 2004, and of course I work on them (bar recalls & MoTs). Further info. My clean up and update of the blown engine list. My categorisation of bearings in the rod bearing condition thread and other sources. Last edited by Assimilator1; 12-03-2020 at 03:14 PM.. Reason: updated |
03-02-2020, 08:17 AM | #2 |
Major General
![]() ![]() ![]() 2802
Rep 5,771
Posts |
Cheers mate, interesting compilation and "conclusion" (i'm aware data is limited but still).
"It does show that oil analysis won't necessarily pick up problems. How/why? Because the high wear rate occurred at some point before the oil report(s)." To me another indication that most of the wear on fair/high milage shells we see that ran fine, probably are worn in its early life. Once shaved off they continue to do its job. That said sure, still a good idea to replace them "early" to reduce risk. |
Appreciate
1
Assimilator1120.50 |
03-02-2020, 08:58 AM | #3 | |
Private First Class
![]() 143
Rep 192
Posts |
Quote:
|
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-02-2020, 03:08 PM | #4 |
First Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 121
Rep 370
Posts |
You're the guy I was thinking of
![]() ![]() I'll tweak my conclusion. But the main point of my thread was to show the data that oil analysis can miss bearing failure. Your post whilst interesting & useful (so I'll add it here), didn't show that. Btw, would be useful to know what's your background to knowing this about oil analysis? Which wear modes produce particles too big for ICP? Helmsman Thanks ![]() I'm thinking I should add the mileages to all the reports I've posted....... ************************************************** ******** Incidentally, I'm surprised that I've only had 2 replies with over 130 views! lol. I'm going to see if I can post the pics to my op with the case that demonstrated oil analysis can miss bearing problems.
__________________
.
Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. Last edited by Assimilator1; 03-02-2020 at 04:00 PM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
03-02-2020, 03:12 PM | #5 | |
First Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 121
Rep 370
Posts |
Post by IamFODI (same as linked by him above).
Quote:
__________________
.
Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
03-02-2020, 04:25 PM | #6 | ||
Private First Class
![]() 143
Rep 192
Posts |
Quote:
I agree that nothing makes the point better than evidence, and therefore what you've collected and presented here is vastly more important than the theory behind it. Quote:
Don't think I could do much to improve on the answer I gave here: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...7#post25701187 Last edited by IamFODI; 03-02-2020 at 04:37 PM.. |
||
Appreciate
1
Assimilator1120.50 |
03-02-2020, 05:44 PM | #7 |
First Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 121
Rep 370
Posts |
My memory sucks, so I appreciate the reminder
![]()
__________________
.
Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. |
Appreciate
0
|
03-21-2020, 01:52 PM | #8 |
First Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 121
Rep 370
Posts |
Added another case of ***Confirmed analysis missed bad bearings***.
Link to an oil report carried out just before the RBs change to follow [edit] now added.
__________________
.
Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. Last edited by Assimilator1; 03-22-2020 at 10:48 AM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
03-22-2020, 05:08 PM | #9 |
First Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 121
Rep 370
Posts |
2 in a row! Added another case of analysis missed bad bearings.
__________________
.
Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. |
Appreciate
0
|
04-28-2020, 09:34 AM | #10 |
First Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 121
Rep 370
Posts |
Added a couple of ambiguous cases from my data file to the 'no claim either way' section.
Added mileages to remainder of cases not previously noted. Also I spotted an error by myself (& the owner) of the 'missed bearings' report for amrazM, aside from their 1st line, they had actually advised him to take further investigation due to the slightly elevated pb/cu levels that had occurred over just 500 miles!, and the visible metal he had reported seeing. I've now moved that case to the 'oil analysis reported bad bearings'. Also added a new section 'Oil analysis advised caution & to recheck in near future', moved wfdecon88's case there (possibly others need to go there too). 38 reports in total 22 reports un-ambigouosly flagged bad bearings (~58%) 4 reports clearly missed bad bearings (10.5%) The remainder weren't clear enough to come to a solid conclusion (e.g lacking info, bearings borderline, levels vs comments contradictory, too bigger a mileage gap between oil report & bearings removed etc)
__________________
.
Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. Last edited by Assimilator1; 04-30-2020 at 08:16 AM.. |
Appreciate
0
|
08-17-2020, 06:34 AM | #11 |
First Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 121
Rep 370
Posts |
2 cases added, de jemster and Burns.
Burns was very lucky as one of the shells copper layer had started to break up!! Not added to 'missed' section as the levels clearly show a problem, even if their summary says 'ok'! ![]()
__________________
.
Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. |
Appreciate
0
|
11-25-2020, 09:55 AM | #12 |
Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 192
Rep 535
Posts
Drives: 335xi sedan
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Newton, MA
|
Guys, the failure does not occur if the bearings get worn a bit, and copper shows... it's normal. The problem occurs when they "spin" , which happens when they wear so much at the top where the little notches are, that keep them into place... then they move and spin around the crank and cause a lot of debris to enter the engine and damage the crank also... wear at that middle point is normal.
Of course if other components pollute the oil and debris gets around between crank and bearing, it will cause failure also.
__________________
2008 BMW 335xi sedan 6sp manual -Rob Beck turbos, MHD stage 1+, Helix stepped core intercooler, Bilstein B8 shocks, Eibach sport springs, M3 steering wheel, M3 shifter
2009 BMW M3 6 Speed manual - stock for now 2016 Ford Mustang Shelby GT350R - stock 2008 VW Rabbit Coupe manual - for kids |
Appreciate
0
|
11-25-2020, 10:29 AM | #13 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
![]() ![]() 1592
Rep 1,611
Posts
Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Victoria
|
Quote:
Also, the notches? What are you blathering on about here? If you are referring to the bearing tang, then you may be interested to know that the tang does nothing other than help locate the bearings during installation... Please, pretty please, do just a little bit of research before presenting your opinion. ![]()
__________________
![]() 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, Dinan Stuff A wise friend told me "I stopped trying to make a slow car go fast. Instead, I bought a fast car." Sound advice. |
|
Appreciate
2
|
11-25-2020, 01:06 PM | #14 |
Major General
![]() ![]() 3100
Rep 7,627
Posts |
Yes, someone needs to learn about both bearing wear and bearing installation.
I am close to 50k miles on my 2nd set of bearings. I think next year I will drop the engine and do both main and rod bearings and then install a supercharger. The car will have 110-115k miles then. The supercharger will keep me entertained for a 2-3 more years until I can buy a 991.2 Turbo. |
Appreciate
2
|
11-25-2020, 02:40 PM | #15 | |
Lieutenant Colonel
![]() ![]() 1592
Rep 1,611
Posts
Drives: 2011 E92 M3
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Victoria
|
Quote:
Question is - when you buy a 991.2 Turbo, will you sell your M? ![]() Cheers,
__________________
![]() 2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, Dinan Stuff A wise friend told me "I stopped trying to make a slow car go fast. Instead, I bought a fast car." Sound advice. |
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-25-2020, 03:54 PM | #16 |
Major General
![]() ![]() 3100
Rep 7,627
Posts |
I don’t know yet. I might keep it since it really is a good car. It would depend on how much I end up driving it. I don’t really want to have cars I don’t drive. I have an E36M3 that is turbocharged.
|
Appreciate
0
|
11-25-2020, 09:16 PM | #17 | |
First Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 121
Rep 370
Posts |
Sounds good!
![]() And I look forward to seeing the rod bearing photos ![]() Quote:
![]() If you look at my megapost at the rod bearing condition thread and scroll down to the bottom part titled 'Good condition non S65 bearings', 1 of the links shows a bearing after 154k miles with almost no visible wear, this is how they're supposed to be, oh btw it makes no difference that it's a lower revving lower hp engine, the principle's the same! It's a non contact bearing when the engine's running, or at least it's supposed to be! S65's with OEM shells don't seem to realise that ![]() As the others have said the notch only keeps the bearing in place for assembly, the clamping of the rod end by the bolts is what keeps it in place. I've copied this from the rod bearing condition mega post I did their recently discussing all the photos there. At least check out the tech docs by the bearing manufacturers, or at least the ones by King. The ones that are clear cut are the lead/copper bearings which are showing copper, this clearly shows that the soft babbitt layer has worn through. This layer allows particles to embed into the shell & thus prevent crank damage, as well protecting the crank when starting and stopping the engine, if it's worn ultra thin (e.g copper showing at the edges) or it's just plain gone then this protective layer is gone & the crank is imminently vulnerable to debris damage or pick up, & thus scoring &/or seizure under those conditions. If you don't believe that then read this literature by the bearing manufacturers:- King bearings - engine bearing materials http://www.kingbearings.com/wp-conte...-materials.pdf Engine bearings & how they work pdf http://www.kingbearings.com/wp-conte...-they-work.pdf More info here at their tech page http://www.kingbearings.com/technical-info/ Mahl (Clevite) - https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/me...l-brochure.pdf Engine bearing failure analysis guide https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/me...s-brochure.pdf ACL - https://aclperformance.eu/products [limited info] Glycol - http://www.wilmink.nl/Glyco/Glyco_la...informatie.pdf (Glyco aka Federal Mogul were bought out by Tenneco 10/18, pdf not available from their site currently).
__________________
.
Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. |
|
11-30-2020, 01:39 PM | #18 |
Lieutenant Colonel
![]() 108
Rep 1,548
Posts |
anerbe - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=967 - spun bearings, elevated pb on 2 reports! High copper on final one. Comments not shown for report prior to spun bearings. 54k miles.
To clarify, the report I got a few hundred miles before the spun bearings stated I have much more elevated levels of lead. Once the engine started making some ratcheting noise, I got another test that showed very high levels of copper. The replacement engine had 25K miles (vehicle had 54K), I replaced with VAC extra clearance bearings before installation. Here's the latest report attached from end of August - with an additional 47K miles. Funny that they think Aluminum bearings are installed in the engine. This is driving daily including the difficult Michigan weather, parked outside. |
Appreciate
1
Assimilator1120.50 |
12-03-2020, 02:37 PM | #19 |
First Lieutenant
![]() ![]() ![]() 121
Rep 370
Posts |
Thanks for the update anerbe
![]()
__________________
.
Does oil analysis work for finding wearing rod bearings? Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. |
Appreciate
0
|
Post Reply |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|