Increasing S65 reliability

MasterP · 03-25-2014, 11:16 AM

So my 2008 e92 engine blew. Hole in the block. No immediate known cause yet. Looks like the top end may have been damaged too from debris. Rod bearing failure is suspected given my cars production date and mileage.

Sad thing was it wasn't even being pushed. Happened very suddenly. Just a sputter, then warning lights then nothing. Car can crank but won't run.

The car is still under warranty thankfully.

So given the age of my car I doubt the warranty company will give me a brand new engine. But regardless of what the replacement engine is I was hoping to gather some information on what can be done to increase the reliability of this engine?

I read a Giant long thread about the rod bearings and connecting rods having extremely tight tolerances which can create oil lubrication issues or in some case actual contact with metal on metal.

Going to 0w-60 seems doable since the low mileage change intervals I would be ok with. But what else can be done? If the bottom end needs to be built up this would be the time to consider it since the warranty company is,offsetting some of the labor. I've read countless rod bearing threads to the point where I'm dizzy.

Will not consider a stroker of any kind, no exotic engine swaps either.

I just want this car to tolerate high RPM use. If it also includes more frequent maintenance I am ok with that since I drive this car less than 500 miles a month.

SuckaGDog · 03-25-2014, 11:18 AM

Which dealer is your car at? How many miles on the engine?

MasterP · 03-25-2014, 11:21 AM

Not at a dealer. Car is being transported to spec motorsports in McKinney. They do warranty work. And with building the bottom end a consideration, the dealer is out.

If it does end up needing Togo to a dealer I will take it to BMW of Dallas since I used to work there. The car was bought there, as was the warranty. Although the thought of a 535d loaner sounds great right now.

s85e90 · 03-25-2014, 11:41 AM

Just bring it to BMW; have new motor installed and return to beating on it. It will be warrantied as well for peace of mind.

Warranty doesn't work like 1st party insurance either; meaning they owe you an engine irregardless of the age of the car. (they don't factor value or salvage value as it's still your car)

M3-S65 · 03-25-2014, 12:09 PM

How many miles did you have on it?

whats77inaname · 03-25-2014, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s85e90

Just bring it to BMW; have new motor installed and return to beating on it. It will be warrantied as well for peace of mind.

+1

www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=945034

gatorfast · 03-25-2014, 12:45 PM

As other have asked, how many miles were on the motor?

W/// · 03-25-2014, 02:20 PM

Any Blackstone reports at all?

MasterP · 03-25-2014, 03:23 PM

The car had 65k. I have some oil saved from the recent oil change and I'll pull some more from the failed block.

biglare · 03-25-2014, 04:45 PM

Whoever is going to replace the engine due to warranty work, then have them replace the engine for you. This way it will be warrantied again and reduce the chance for you to be out of pocket lots of money. Also, as others have said ensure that the clearances on the bearings are correct when all is put back together again.

Best of luck and keep us updated.

MasterP · 03-25-2014, 05:05 PM

The existing block failed so it's either a brand new engine or a LKQ engine.

I'm hoping there's some way to make this replacement engine more reliable. Building up this bottom end is not out of the question.

MasterP · 05-28-2014, 12:47 AM

Update:

Now that the warranty company and shop are nearly done I'll share the outcome.

First Here's my epic catastrophe exposed after a teardown:

IMG_5876 by rioyellows2k, on Flickr

1505542_624466694294808_5498782317600750192_n by rioyellows2k, on Flickr

#8 Cylinder. Original Cause of failure was rod bearing failure. Massive additional damage from attempting to restart the engine after failure. When the motor actually let go it wasn't very dramatic as it ended with a sputter and a puff. So again, this was likely caused by the attempt to restart the engine. Which could only be described as whiiir whir, clunk clunk clunk, sputter...and F. U.

This is how extensive the collateral damage was. The pic is looking up at the head from the crank. Crank is damaged. Bits of metal damaged the throttles, heads, oil pan was missing a chunk.

IMG_0234 by rioyellows2k, on Flickr
The engine was garbage. Nothing was salvageable. The throttles, intake plenum, oil lines, oil cooler - basically anything that contacted engine oil was junked as little fragments got everywhere. The crank was slightly twisted, rods were bent and the piston actually broke.

Engine was replaced under warranty with a LKQ engine from a 2011 DCT E90 with 40K miles. The rod bearings were replaced on this engine as a precaution without knowing the condition of the bearings in the LKQ engine. WPC bearings were purchased before the warranty company even supplied the replacement engine. Surprised to see this much wear on a 2011 engine with 40K miles.

10262058_635652503176227_4490683356942830873_n by rioyellows2k, on Flickr

So I got 2 for 1 on S65's in my car.

I had to get a brand new oil cooler, oil lines and manifold/plenum, as unknown amounts of tiny bits of metal got in them. I found it funny the warranty company would not pay for these items, but would not warranty the engine if I did not replace these parts. But it wasn't expensive so I just did it and moved on.

So my plan of attack to keep my car running since I've decided that I'm going to keep it forever and never sell it will be:

Changing the Oil to the redline synthetic swill
Change oil after every track day. Which basically every 300 street/track miles and 1 month.
Quarterly Blackstone tests
Likely will be replacing rod bearings every two years as track duty will become the car's purpose. It's surprisingly not that expensive, so in that context it will cost less than a season's worth of tires.
Warranty! Car will always be under warranty at $2200 a pop (or less) for two years it makes sense.
Probably retire the car to queen status at 120K miles.

That's all I can think of unless someone can propose something else.

Yellow Snow · 05-28-2014, 04:23 AM

What proportion of your mileage is done on track?

coloradoe92m3 · 05-28-2014, 08:28 PM

Great info!

MasterP · 05-28-2014, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Snow

What proportion of your mileage is done on track?

16 auto cross runs, approx 60-65 second layouts

3 x at my home track approx 32-34 laps per DE, 3.1 mile config
1 x at MSR 1.7, probably 40 ish laps
1 x at COTA three DE sessions.

I bought my car at 44k miles. Has 63.7k miles at failure.

Can't be sure of previous ownership(s)

But car was well maintained.

aus · 05-28-2014, 10:43 PM

That's a LOT of oil changes you plan on doing!!
And a lot of oil analysis!!

Let us know how it goes.
Congrats on finally getting the car back together.

.

MasterP · 05-28-2014, 11:58 PM

It seems like the increased RPM usage is a factor for the accelerated wear. The current configuration and intended use of the car will basically be high RPM use for the rest of it's life. So I'm probably being overly cautious initially. If the oil testing reveals I can go longer between oil service intervals then that is what will likely happen.

Killerfish2012 · 05-30-2014, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrakBch

Likely will be replacing rod bearings every two years as track duty will become the car's purpose. It's surprisingly not that expensive, so in that context it will cost less than a season's worth of tires.

Sir, about how many hours labour will replacing the rod bearings run? What is the estimated total cost in parts/labour, and can anyone give me the rod bearing part numbers?

h4nh · 05-31-2014, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrakBch

Update:

Now that the warranty company and shop are nearly done I'll share the outcome.

First Here's my epic catastrophe exposed after a teardown:

IMG_5876 by rioyellows2k, on Flickr

1505542_624466694294808_5498782317600750192_n by rioyellows2k, on Flickr

#8 Cylinder. Original Cause of failure was rod bearing failure. Massive additional damage from attempting to restart the engine after failure. When the motor actually let go it wasn't very dramatic as it ended with a sputter and a puff. So again, this was likely caused by the attempt to restart the engine. Which could only be described as whiiir whir, clunk clunk clunk, sputter...and F. U.

This is how extensive the collateral damage was. The pic is looking up at the head from the crank. Crank is damaged. Bits of metal damaged the throttles, heads, oil pan was missing a chunk.

IMG_0234 by rioyellows2k, on Flickr
The engine was garbage. Nothing was salvageable. The throttles, intake plenum, oil lines, oil cooler - basically anything that contacted engine oil was junked as little fragments got everywhere. The crank was slightly twisted, rods were bent and the piston actually broke.

Engine was replaced under warranty with a LKQ engine from a 2011 DCT E90 with 40K miles. The rod bearings were replaced on this engine as a precaution without knowing the condition of the bearings in the LKQ engine. WPC bearings were purchased before the warranty company even supplied the replacement engine. Surprised to see this much wear on a 2011 engine with 40K miles.

10262058_635652503176227_4490683356942830873_n by rioyellows2k, on Flickr

So I got 2 for 1 on S65's in my car.

I had to get a brand new oil cooler, oil lines and manifold/plenum, as unknown amounts of tiny bits of metal got in them. I found it funny the warranty company would not pay for these items, but would not warranty the engine if I did not replace these parts. But it wasn't expensive so I just did it and moved on.

So my plan of attack to keep my car running since I've decided that I'm going to keep it forever and never sell it will be:

Changing the Oil to the redline synthetic swill
Change oil after every track day. Which basically every 300 street/track miles and 1 month.
Quarterly Blackstone tests
Likely will be replacing rod bearings every two years as track duty will become the car's purpose. It's surprisingly not that expensive, so in that context it will cost less than a season's worth of tires.
Warranty! Car will always be under warranty at $2200 a pop (or less) for two years it makes sense.
Probably retire the car to queen status at 120K miles.

That's all I can think of unless someone can propose something else.

dang that's a lot of damage. Is your car fixed bro?

MasterP · 06-01-2014, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by h4nh

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrakBch

Update:

Now that the warranty company and shop are nearly done I'll share the outcome.

First Here's my epic catastrophe exposed after a teardown:

IMG_5876 by rioyellows2k, on Flickr

1505542_624466694294808_5498782317600750192_n by rioyellows2k, on Flickr

#8 Cylinder. Original Cause of failure was rod bearing failure. Massive additional damage from attempting to restart the engine after failure. When the motor actually let go it wasn't very dramatic as it ended with a sputter and a puff. So again, this was likely caused by the attempt to restart the engine. Which could only be described as whiiir whir, clunk clunk clunk, sputter...and F. U.

This is how extensive the collateral damage was. The pic is looking up at the head from the crank. Crank is damaged. Bits of metal damaged the throttles, heads, oil pan was missing a chunk.

IMG_0234 by rioyellows2k, on Flickr
The engine was garbage. Nothing was salvageable. The throttles, intake plenum, oil lines, oil cooler - basically anything that contacted engine oil was junked as little fragments got everywhere. The crank was slightly twisted, rods were bent and the piston actually broke.

Engine was replaced under warranty with a LKQ engine from a 2011 DCT E90 with 40K miles. The rod bearings were replaced on this engine as a precaution without knowing the condition of the bearings in the LKQ engine. WPC bearings were purchased before the warranty company even supplied the replacement engine. Surprised to see this much wear on a 2011 engine with 40K miles.

10262058_635652503176227_4490683356942830873_n by rioyellows2k, on Flickr

So I got 2 for 1 on S65's in my car.

I had to get a brand new oil cooler, oil lines and manifold/plenum, as unknown amounts of tiny bits of metal got in them. I found it funny the warranty company would not pay for these items, but would not warranty the engine if I did not replace these parts. But it wasn't expensive so I just did it and moved on.

So my plan of attack to keep my car running since I've decided that I'm going to keep it forever and never sell it will be:

Changing the Oil to the redline synthetic swill
Change oil after every track day. Which basically every 300 street/track miles and 1 month.
Quarterly Blackstone tests
Likely will be replacing rod bearings every two years as track duty will become the car's purpose. It's surprisingly not that expensive, so in that context it will cost less than a season's worth of tires.
Warranty! Car will always be under warranty at $2200 a pop (or less) for two years it makes sense.
Probably retire the car to queen status at 120K miles.

That's all I can think of unless someone can propose something else.

dang that's a lot of damage. Is your car fixed bro?

Yes. It's back and running again. I'm getting aero and prepped for TT2.

MasterP · 06-09-2014, 09:22 AM

Dumped the break in oil, clean as a whistle. No metallic looking anything. So clean in fact I could probably put it in another car. Lol, but I won't.

Oil samples on the way to black stone, a long with pre failure sample.

This E92 M3 is my first BMW. So I've had one S65 engine fail due to rod bearings. And the replacement engine had really worn bearings as well.

Say what you want, sit atop the BMW pedestal, drink the kool aid or what have you. My sample size for BMW is only this one experience, but I'm 2 for 2 with bad/failed/damaged rod bearings in my s65's. If it's not an issue, then I've just got crappy luck and I should quit going outside. I sold BMW for a living and still do so I'm not anti BMW. But I'm not ignorant. If enough people are having similar issues, then it's enough to cause concern. Just because someone gets 140k miles out of theirs doesn't mean someone didn't only get 22k out of theirs.

I did track the car after break in, it feels great to be back in it with the setup and build I was hoping to enjoy pre failure. On 285 slicks I was within a second and a half lap times as my GTR on R888's. With some air pressure and front compression adjustments I could have picked some of that up. But - the power steering belt jumped off and ended my day early. It was a shake down day and I was happy overall. My car is down to 3400 pounds with full interior (race seats though) and it's responsive like my s2000 - very go karty!

I ran redline 10-60 after dropping the break in oil (liqui-moly) and was recommended to change oil every 12 sessions. So I have another 10 sessions (2 track days) left on this oil.

dub yu · 06-09-2014, 10:55 PM

Did you have an aftermarket warranty that covered the repair? If so, what company?

03-25-2014, 11:16 AM	#1
MasterP Colonel 721 Rep 2,342 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (8)	Increasing S65 reliability So my 2008 e92 engine blew. Hole in the block. No immediate known cause yet. Looks like the top end may have been damaged too from debris. Rod bearing failure is suspected given my cars production date and mileage. Sad thing was it wasn't even being pushed. Happened very suddenly. Just a sputter, then warning lights then nothing. Car can crank but won't run. The car is still under warranty thankfully. So given the age of my car I doubt the warranty company will give me a brand new engine. But regardless of what the replacement engine is I was hoping to gather some information on what can be done to increase the reliability of this engine? I read a Giant long thread about the rod bearings and connecting rods having extremely tight tolerances which can create oil lubrication issues or in some case actual contact with metal on metal. Going to 0w-60 seems doable since the low mileage change intervals I would be ok with. But what else can be done? If the bottom end needs to be built up this would be the time to consider it since the warranty company is,offsetting some of the labor. I've read countless rod bearing threads to the point where I'm dizzy. Will not consider a stroker of any kind, no exotic engine swaps either. I just want this car to tolerate high RPM use. If it also includes more frequent maintenance I am ok with that since I drive this car less than 500 miles a month.
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03-25-2014, 11:18 AM	#2
SuckaGDog Captain 128 Rep 617 Posts Drives: M5, C63 AMG Black Series Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: DFW, TX iTrader: (0)	Which dealer is your car at? How many miles on the engine?
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03-25-2014, 11:21 AM	#3
MasterP Colonel 721 Rep 2,342 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (8)	Not at a dealer. Car is being transported to spec motorsports in McKinney. They do warranty work. And with building the bottom end a consideration, the dealer is out. If it does end up needing Togo to a dealer I will take it to BMW of Dallas since I used to work there. The car was bought there, as was the warranty. Although the thought of a 535d loaner sounds great right now.
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03-25-2014, 11:41 AM	#4
s85e90 Brigadier General 192 Rep 3,633 Posts Drives: black e90 Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: everywhere iTrader: (2)	Just bring it to BMW; have new motor installed and return to beating on it. It will be warrantied as well for peace of mind. Warranty doesn't work like 1st party insurance either; meaning they owe you an engine irregardless of the age of the car. (they don't factor value or salvage value as it's still your car)
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03-25-2014, 12:09 PM	#5
M3-S65 Banned 43 Rep 881 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: USA iTrader: (6)	How many miles did you have on it?
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03-25-2014, 12:45 PM	#7
gatorfast Major General 4995 Rep 6,862 Posts Drives: 718 Cayman Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: SoFla iTrader: (4)	As other have asked, how many miles were on the motor?
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03-25-2014, 02:20 PM	#8
W/// Lieutenant General 7484 Rep 12,305 Posts Drives: F82GTS, E36/E92M3, Z4M Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: SC iTrader: (13)	Any Blackstone reports at all? __________________ Current: 16 F82 M4 GTS, Black Sapphire/Black, DCT 08 E92 M3, Sparkling Graphite/Bamboo Beige, 6MT 07 E85 Z4M Roadster, Alpine White/Red, 6MT 99 E36 M3, Techno Violet/Dove Grey, 6MT
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03-25-2014, 03:23 PM	#9
MasterP Colonel 721 Rep 2,342 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (8)	The car had 65k. I have some oil saved from the recent oil change and I'll pull some more from the failed block.
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03-25-2014, 04:45 PM	#10
biglare Bulldog 482 Rep 3,355 Posts Drives: BMW & Porsche Join Date: May 2008 Location: ? iTrader: (3)	Whoever is going to replace the engine due to warranty work, then have them replace the engine for you. This way it will be warrantied again and reduce the chance for you to be out of pocket lots of money. Also, as others have said ensure that the clearances on the bearings are correct when all is put back together again. Best of luck and keep us updated. __________________ Prev: Individual F80 M3 - Fjord Blue/Silverstone(interior) \| Fashion Grey(exterior) GTS
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03-25-2014, 05:05 PM	#11
MasterP Colonel 721 Rep 2,342 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (8)	The existing block failed so it's either a brand new engine or a LKQ engine. I'm hoping there's some way to make this replacement engine more reliable. Building up this bottom end is not out of the question.
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05-28-2014, 12:47 AM	#12
MasterP Colonel 721 Rep 2,342 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (8)	Update: Now that the warranty company and shop are nearly done I'll share the outcome. First Here's my epic catastrophe exposed after a teardown: IMG_5876 by rioyellows2k, on Flickr 1505542_624466694294808_5498782317600750192_n by rioyellows2k, on Flickr #8 Cylinder. Original Cause of failure was rod bearing failure. Massive additional damage from attempting to restart the engine after failure. When the motor actually let go it wasn't very dramatic as it ended with a sputter and a puff. So again, this was likely caused by the attempt to restart the engine. Which could only be described as whiiir whir, clunk clunk clunk, sputter...and F. U. This is how extensive the collateral damage was. The pic is looking up at the head from the crank. Crank is damaged. Bits of metal damaged the throttles, heads, oil pan was missing a chunk. IMG_0234 by rioyellows2k, on Flickr The engine was garbage. Nothing was salvageable. The throttles, intake plenum, oil lines, oil cooler - basically anything that contacted engine oil was junked as little fragments got everywhere. The crank was slightly twisted, rods were bent and the piston actually broke. Engine was replaced under warranty with a LKQ engine from a 2011 DCT E90 with 40K miles. The rod bearings were replaced on this engine as a precaution without knowing the condition of the bearings in the LKQ engine. WPC bearings were purchased before the warranty company even supplied the replacement engine. Surprised to see this much wear on a 2011 engine with 40K miles. 10262058_635652503176227_4490683356942830873_n by rioyellows2k, on Flickr So I got 2 for 1 on S65's in my car. I had to get a brand new oil cooler, oil lines and manifold/plenum, as unknown amounts of tiny bits of metal got in them. I found it funny the warranty company would not pay for these items, but would not warranty the engine if I did not replace these parts. But it wasn't expensive so I just did it and moved on. So my plan of attack to keep my car running since I've decided that I'm going to keep it forever and never sell it will be: Changing the Oil to the redline synthetic swill Change oil after every track day. Which basically every 300 street/track miles and 1 month. Quarterly Blackstone tests Likely will be replacing rod bearings every two years as track duty will become the car's purpose. It's surprisingly not that expensive, so in that context it will cost less than a season's worth of tires. Warranty! Car will always be under warranty at $2200 a pop (or less) for two years it makes sense. Probably retire the car to queen status at 120K miles. That's all I can think of unless someone can propose something else. Last edited by MasterP; 05-28-2014 at 01:07 AM..
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05-28-2014, 04:23 AM	#13
Yellow Snow First Lieutenant 7 Rep 311 Posts Drives: 335d Coupe. Stock no more! Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Newcastle iTrader: (0)	What proportion of your mileage is done on track?
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05-28-2014, 08:28 PM	#14
coloradoe92m3 Banned 30 Rep 496 Posts Drives: m3 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: u.s iTrader: (0)	Great info!
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05-28-2014, 10:43 PM	#16
aus Major General 890 Rep 9,032 Posts Drives: Odysse Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Seal Beach, CA iTrader: (10)	That's a LOT of oil changes you plan on doing!! And a lot of oil analysis!! Let us know how it goes. Congrats on finally getting the car back together. . __________________ Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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05-28-2014, 11:58 PM	#17
MasterP Colonel 721 Rep 2,342 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (8)	It seems like the increased RPM usage is a factor for the accelerated wear. The current configuration and intended use of the car will basically be high RPM use for the rest of it's life. So I'm probably being overly cautious initially. If the oil testing reveals I can go longer between oil service intervals then that is what will likely happen.
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06-09-2014, 09:22 AM	#21
MasterP Colonel 721 Rep 2,342 Posts Drives: All the M's Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Where do you want me? iTrader: (8)	Dumped the break in oil, clean as a whistle. No metallic looking anything. So clean in fact I could probably put it in another car. Lol, but I won't. Oil samples on the way to black stone, a long with pre failure sample. This E92 M3 is my first BMW. So I've had one S65 engine fail due to rod bearings. And the replacement engine had really worn bearings as well. Say what you want, sit atop the BMW pedestal, drink the kool aid or what have you. My sample size for BMW is only this one experience, but I'm 2 for 2 with bad/failed/damaged rod bearings in my s65's. If it's not an issue, then I've just got crappy luck and I should quit going outside. I sold BMW for a living and still do so I'm not anti BMW. But I'm not ignorant. If enough people are having similar issues, then it's enough to cause concern. Just because someone gets 140k miles out of theirs doesn't mean someone didn't only get 22k out of theirs. I did track the car after break in, it feels great to be back in it with the setup and build I was hoping to enjoy pre failure. On 285 slicks I was within a second and a half lap times as my GTR on R888's. With some air pressure and front compression adjustments I could have picked some of that up. But - the power steering belt jumped off and ended my day early. It was a shake down day and I was happy overall. My car is down to 3400 pounds with full interior (race seats though) and it's responsive like my s2000 - very go karty! I ran redline 10-60 after dropping the break in oil (liqui-moly) and was recommended to change oil every 12 sessions. So I have another 10 sessions (2 track days) left on this oil.
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06-09-2014, 10:55 PM	#22
dub yu New Member 5 Rep 26 Posts Drives: 2011 m3 Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: So Cal iTrader: (1)	Did you have an aftermarket warranty that covered the repair? If so, what company?
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