Cayman GT4....Damn you Porsche!!

[Law]

Originally Posted by s85e90

Well it is a cayman. Also a 911 is rear engine and a cayman is mid engined FYI.

Beat me to it.

Engine behind the rear axle and engine between axles are completely different concepts.

[M3/4 life]

Sexy, however I'm leaning towards the Audi R8!! Actually have my eye on a 2012 R8 V10 with 9,000 miles for $115,000

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by s85e90

Well it is a cayman. Also a 911 is rear engine and a cayman is mid engined FYI.

I think the point is why does the Cayman badge inherently impose an upper limit on what price is reasonable? That type of thinking makes Petros' point about people making judgments purely on the badge. If the Cayman GT4 is in a completely different league than the regular Cayman, then it shouldn't be seen as absurd that its pricing would be in another league as well.

For more extreme examples, look at $135K for a Ford (GT), $375K for a Lexus (LFA), and hell, $100K+ for a Nissan (GTR). If the car is worth it, then it's worth it. End of story. Seriously, who cares what others think about the wisdom of you spending $100K on what they wrongfully think of as "just a Cayman"?

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by jphughan

I think the point is why does the Cayman badge inherently impose an upper limit on what price is reasonable? That type of thinking makes Petros' point about people making judgments purely on the badge. If the Cayman GT4 is in a completely different league than the regular Cayman, then it shouldn't be seen as absurd that its pricing would be in another league as well.

For more extreme examples, look at $135K for a Ford (GT), $375K for a Lexus (LFA), and hell, $100K+ for a Nissan (GTR). If the car is worth it, then it's worth it. End of story. Seriously, who cares what others think about the wisdom of you spending $100K on what they wrongfully think of as "just a Cayman"?

Because the 911 is still the flagship and will be priced accordingly. Your comparisons make no Sense as you're comparing a gt and lfa? Cmon

[FogCityM3]

I mentioned this on another thread, but wow, this is so awesome. So many good cars to choose from these days. And props to Porsche for giving customers another great N/A car and its obvious we know what they really prefer! Also, in this interview the Porsche guy sounds far more genuine, actually answering questions and giving honest answers, far more than the couched, cautious language from any recent BMW exec interview. BMW needs to rip a page off the Porsche Marketing 101 guide and learn a lesson or two (in addition to the Motorsport 101 guide)! This car and the GT350 are getting me really pumped! This one probably more so as it due to its lightness will feel nothing like anything out there in this price range. This will likely drive extremely naturally and harness physics, without having to run all that negative camber on the rears or trick engine mounts on the 911 to make up for the mis-placed engine.

[radiantm3]

A lot of us paid 60+k for a freaking 3 series.

[s85e90]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

A lot of us paid 60+k for a freaking 3 series.

Well that's just silly.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by s85e90

Because the 911 is still the flagship and will be priced accordingly. Your comparisons make no Sense as you're comparing a gt and lfa? Cmon

Again, what does it matter that some other model is the flagship? My point with the comparisons to the LFA and others is that saying, "X amount of money for a [Cayman/Ford/Lexus] is absurd" is itself absurd. If the particular model/trim you're buying is worth the cash to you, then who cares what other trims/models from that marque are worth and where they're slotted in the hierarchy relative to what you're interested in?

For some people it's not about owning the flagship, even if they're paying flagship money. It's just about owning the car that they'll enjoy most. I wouldn't have thought that would be so difficult to understand, particularly for enthusiasts. And anyway, in this case they're not even spending flagship money for a non-flagship car, since comparing a GT car to a base 911 isn't valid. They serve completely different purposes and attract completely different markets; few if any people attracted to a base 911 will also consider a GT4, and vice versa. The only cross-shopping might be people deciding between a new GT4 or a used GT3.

I find it particularly ironic that this argument is coming from a guy with the nickname s85e90. Talk about the amount of money spent on "just an M3" to make that swap work when you could have something much "recognized" for that amount of money and with less effort. But if you want an S85 under the hood of your E90, then go nuts.

[imserious]

I can't believe how much doubt there is in this thread. This car is going to be phenomenal and although overpriced there are no real equivalents out there. While not a drag racer, this car is going to be legitimately fast.

The Americans are killing it too, but with a totally different driving experience.

Where the hell is BMW in the enthusiast market? They are pretty much committing to the Mercedes luxury cars that can haul ass strategy.

What would wow me even more is the Japanese coming out with a cayman GT4 like car at a $25k discount.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by imserious

What would wow me even more is the Japanese coming out with a cayman GT4 like car at a $25k discount.

They might make a turbo BRZ, or resurrect the S2000. Next generation Fairlady Z may also be a candidate.

[V8FunNaturally]

flagship or not, Porsche is honest and straightforward about this car, the idea behind it, which choices they made to implement it and price. They don't bombast and use teenager superlatives for marketing like recent years bmw. It seems they know it's better to respect the potential customer to make his own jugement from sound informations they provide. I agree with FogCityM3 this contrasts a lot with bmw deceptive and half-witted marketing we've seen ( 'deceptive' is the correct word from what they demonstrated in 2013-2014) tooling with half-lies published in pre-releases under shady half-official online platforms like this forum and further manipulations on semantic, exactly what was under the hood even after release. Let's not forget bashing their own outgoing model in order to make room for the new one. Makes me wonder what kind of fresh business school graduate fools they must have hired. They successfully put a big dent in the bmw brand trustworthiness for me. To a point i would not buy any future new car from them. But Porsche, most certainly !

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by s85e90

Well it is a cayman. Also a 911 is rear engine and a cayman is mid engined FYI.

I understand that the 911 is rear-engined and the Cayman is mid. My point was that this is basically a mid-engined version of a high-end 911. This makes the "It's just a Cayman" comments misguided and irrelevant. FWIW, I actually think a mid-engine setup is preferable in many respects.

Anyway, you're missing the point: People don't point out it's a Cayman to be technically precise. They do so to disparage the Cayman. That's what I don't get. Decrying the vehicle because of its name without regard for what this model brings to the table is the height of snobbery.

[JEllis]

As a Porsche fanatic and previous 997 C2S owner, I am pretty pumped about the GT4. I have, in truth, never been much of a Cayman fan. However, the prospect of this GT4 is setting me straight. I did not think much of the previous Cayman R and if I am being honest, when I think Porsche, I think Carrera. I have not seen it mentioned yet but the GT4 appears to be thankfully free of center lock wheels! That alone has me pumped! If only one could purchase a 991 GT3 without them.

I think the only option I would tick on this car is possibly a "paint to sample" (Porsches version of "Individual") and the Porsche factory buckets.... done!

I am feeling all nostalgic now.... My old Porsche....

IMG_1608 by JMEllis, on Flickr

[ManAndMachine]

With the clubsport package and a few options it's at 100k..110K OTD

Considering what you're getting its very good...

200lbs lighter than a 991GT3
Carrera S engine
Beefed up CayamnGTS gearbox
991GT3 Brakes steel or pccb
991GT3 front suspension and steering rack
GT3 rear dampers
991Turbo hubs
Forged lightweight gt3 style wheels
Cup 2 tires

With all of this its still 50K cheaper than a GT3 and probably just as fun to drive if not more rewarding.I'm leaning towards this car over the GT3 right now!

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

If you spend more than 5-10k optioning up this car, you bought the wrong car in the first place. This car is designed for the track. All you need is the sport bucket seats and possibly the Chrono package. PCCB's are a huge waste of money if you plan to track it.

+1 and yes I would stay away from the PCCB's as well. There is a reason a lot of the GT3 guys swap out for the steel brakes.

[SenorFunkyPants]

I sort of miss the days when Porsche made far less cars than they could sell...911s held their price really well and they were a bit of a rare sight on the roads. Now they are banging them out at such a rate that (UK at least) dealers have new cars in stock even 911 turbo S.
Do like the Cayman though but for some reason I can't get away from the feeling that its not a 911.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by JEllis

I have not seen it mentioned yet but the GT4 appears to be thankfully free of center lock wheels! That alone has me pumped! If only one could purchase a 991 GT3 without them.

I think the only option I would tick on this car is possibly a "paint to sample" (Porsches version of "Individual") and the Porsche factory buckets.... done!

Lack of centerlocks has been mentioned a couple of times, once in my original post. Totally agreed. I hate the idea of buying an expensive torque multiplier or a huge expensive 3/4" drive torque wrench and then following a 3-page guide to torque my wheels, complete with distinguishing "light" vs "generous" layers of anti-seize compound.

I'm not sure PTS will be available on this car based on what Preuninger said, but yes if I were to buy this car I would definitely opt for that choice to in order to get BMW Tanzanite Blue.

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I sort of miss the days when Porsche made far less cars than they could sell...911s held their price really well and they were a bit of a rare sight on the roads. Now they are banging them out at such a rate that (UK at least) dealers have new cars in stock even 911 turbo S.
Do like the Cayman though but for some reason I can't get away from the feeling that its not a 911.

So you're not sure you want one, but you might, but either way you want as few other people as possible to have one? I never understood why for some people it was important to their enjoyment of something that ownership be a zero sum game, i.e. because I bought one, it's that much harder for someone else to buy one since production is limited or even capped. Obviously that's the case with some people like collectors, but I don't enjoy my M3 any less because a bunch of other people have them too. I guess it's because I don't count on people gawking at my car and thinking "Wow, look what he managed to get his hands on! He must be so rich/special and his life must be so great!" in order to enjoy my car. And conversely, when I've been at track events and seen Carrera GTs, 12Cs, 458s, 918s, i8s, etc, I enjoy seeing them just because they're beautiful, amazing cars, not because they're rare or because I want to bask in the reflected glory of the owner who was able to wrangle one.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by jphughan

So you're not sure you want one, but you might, but either way you want as few other people as possible to have one? I never understood why for some people it was important to their enjoyment of something that ownership be a zero sum game, i.e. because I bought one, it's that much harder for someone else to buy one since production is limited or even capped. Obviously that's the case with some people like collectors, but I don't enjoy my M3 any less because a bunch of other people have them too. I guess it's because I don't count on people gawking at my car and thinking "Wow, look what he managed to get his hands on! He must be so rich/special and his life must be so great!" in order to enjoy my car. And conversely, when I've been at track events and seen Carrera GTs, 12Cs, 458s, 918s, i8s, etc, I enjoy seeing them just because they're beautiful, amazing cars, not because they're rare or because I want to bask in the reflected glory of the owner who was able to wrangle one.

Note to self: Make forum posts clearer.
OK back in the day you bought a 911, ran it a couple of years, sold it for most of what you paid for it and bought another one (with extra $$). Repeat for 20 years basically owning a 911 for next to nothing in depreciation.
Porsche increase production, second hand values soften and the above no longer works.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Note to self: Make forum posts clearer.

Given your participation in the rod bearing/oil threads, one would think you would have learned this by now

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Note to self: Make forum posts clearer.
OK back in the day you bought a 911, ran it a couple of years, sold it for most of what you paid for it and bought another one (with extra $$). Repeat for 20 years basically owning a 911 for next to nothing in depreciation.
Porsche increase production, second hand values soften and the above no longer works.

Ah ok. Well from what I hear from owners, that's basically how Ferrari can be made to work now. They don't keep them for a couple years (more like a couple thousand miles) and they probably don't trade them back in for next to no depreciation, but apparently dealers sell the car brand new at huge markups over MSRP, then sell to the second owner still at a markup over MSRP, and maybe sell to the third owner at MSRP. Yet another indicator that when you reach that level, it really does seem to be an alternative universe.

[Bimmed Out]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Detuned to allow WHICH 911 to stay on top? The GT3? Well considering that this is $30-50K cheaper than a GT3 depending on how you option each one, that seems perfectly fair to me. That cost savings had to come from somewhere, and I expect that recycling the regular 3.8 from the 911S is responsible for a lot of it given that the rest of the chassis seems to borrow heavily from the GT3. I'm actually surprised the premium over the Cayman GTS isn't more than it is. Anyway, given that some people here are already doing the, "$100K for a Cayman???" thing, I think Porsche would have had trouble essentially offering a Cayman GT3 at a 911 GT3 price point, even if it would be an amazing car.

Anyway, the GT4 is already apparently as fast as a 997.2 GT3. Not bad company at all IMHO.



Or a PDK in a more affordable GT car. But it's not a perfect world.

You completely missed my point. If the Porsche allowed it, the Cayman could easily surpass the 911 because of its engine placement and size/weight. Evo suggested that this longstanding suppression of the Cayman/981 is now over as this GT4 is the "Cayman unleashed." But I think it's pretty obvious that a truly unleashed Cayman would not have an engine that is purposefully detuned to keep its performance limited/down.

[Bimmed Out]

Originally Posted by s85e90

Because the 911 is still the flagship and will be priced accordingly. Your comparisons make no Sense as you're comparing a gt and lfa? Cmon

+1