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      03-23-2016, 07:16 PM   #1
jphughan
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Cayman GT4 vs E92 M3 (very long but organized)

I was talking with Uber V8 in his E92 vs E90 thread (which I accidentally co-opted into a “How to rev match” tutorial), and he asked me to compare my GT4 to the E92 M3 6MT I had before, and then I remembered that others when I took delivery had asked me to follow up with impressions after I’d gotten some time with it as well. So now that I’ve got 3200 miles and 3 track days at CotA on it, I figured I’d write up some observations and put them into a new thread rather than burying it somewhere else. For context, I’ve been an HPDE instructor for about 18 months now. On the M3 I had Yoko AD08Rs, camber plates, a StopTech BBK, and better pads and fluid, and on the GT4 I’ve only got fluid and some boring parts necessary to get a better alignment to avoid prematurely destroying tires at the track. I’m also currently DDing my GT4 (my DD needs are fairly minimal), so my comparison covers a wide range of aspects here, and I’d be happy to write up more if anyone asks. I’ve broken this very long post into named sections for people who don’t want to read the whole thing.

Obviously these cars are different animals. Since it’s still early, I haven't gotten as comfortable with the GT4 yet as I was with my M3, although it does inspire a ton of confidence right off the bat rather than intimidating you like a Vette or Viper might, for example. Still, a lot of variables have changed on me all at once: 700 lb weight reduction, mid-engine, aero grip, and sticky Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires -- and that’s before fiddling with the adjustable aero, coilovers, and sway bars, none of which I'll be touching for a while since I figure I need to learn to drive what I’ve got before I start deciding how to change it. So it's hard to say to what degree each aspect is responsible for the difference in driving impressions, but here goes:

Handling: The GT4 on track is much more tossable than the M3 (mine was non-ZCP, fwiw). That was obvious even the first time I went out for fun on a road with tight corners, but even more so right away on track. Turn-in is fantastic, and I can carry much more speed into corners and through the esses at CotA while still changing direction the way I need to. I chalk this up to mid-engine layout, lower weight, and extra grip all together. I also found myself trail braking the GT4 much deeper into corners since the chassis could handle it, and this actually goes a long way to curing the understeer that some have complained about on the GT4 -- so does getting more than the stock -1.5 camber. Looking back on the M3 now, even having experienced the GT4 I certainly wouldn't describe the M3 as "lumbering" when it comes to cornering, and I was totally happy with it while I had it, but it was definitely slower to change direction. This isn't a big deal on the road, though, since the M3 can still carry more speed through corners than even a skilled driver would probably want to unless they had a death wish, but the GT4's turn-in immediacy and sensation of lightness is still cool and still noticeable even in that setting. And not directly related to handling, but the GT4's stability control is much more permissive than the M3's. I had Euro MDM coded on my M3, which when I used it pretty much stayed out of my way unless I'd messed up, but on the GT4 you need about 50 degrees of yaw before it will step in at all even while it's fully on. The M3 even with Euro MDM enabled stepped in well before that point. One thing that seems backwards to me about Porsche's GT-specific system though is that you can turn stability control completely off and leave traction control on, or you can turn them both off. But there's no way to turn traction control off to have full throttle control and keep stability control on to handle yaw -- so Porsche is happy to let you spin backwards into a wall, but at least the car was helping you manage wheelspin?? Reading up, this seems to be because the system was originally designed for 911 GT cars, where stability control with a rear engine layout causes the rear brakes to get used up very quickly, so people wanted a way to turn it off. I doubt that problem will exist on a Cayman, but we'll see. Anyhow, I thought having only on/off toggles would be a step backwards from having MDM's "intermediate" mode (which incidentally non-GT Porsches also have), but it's plenty permissive even when fully on.

Braking: The GT4 can generate serious Gs in the braking zone on track compared to my M3 even though it had upgraded tires and PFC 08 pads in a StopTech BBK on the front axle. With that setup I sometimes had to reduce pedal pressure on track to avoid tripping ABS because I had more brake than tire. The GT4's stock Pagid pads are roughly comparable to the PFC 08s, but its Cup 2 tires are grippier than the AD08Rs, the rear tires are larger, and it's much lighter, so I don't have that issue anymore. If I'd had Cup 2s on the M3 it might have closed this gap somewhat, but now we're comparing a fairly modded M3 to a bone stock GT4. Stock for stock though, the GT4 is leaps and bounds ahead of the M3, although I've read that even the GT4 boils its stock fluid at CotA, so I already upgraded that. And I don’t think I’ll have to worry about upgrading any other brake components considering that the GT4 gets the same brakes fitted as standard to the GT3 and RS, which have an extra 100+ hp to slow down and wider tires to grip harder before ABS gives the brakes a break. Maybe slotted rotors with replaceable friction rings purely to reduce running costs and increase rotor longevity, but that would be about it.

Power: This one is actually a draw, because while the GT4’s lower weight more than offsets its horsepower deficit (even with the long-ish gears), the M3 wins on power delivery, for two major reasons. The first is that although the M3 doesn’t start developing real thrust until about 4500 RPM, which is somewhat high in the modern turbo era and why several people erroneously call the engine torqueless, the GT4's engine doesn't deliver its additional kick until about 5500 RPM -- and that's despite the fact that its redline is 600 RPM lower than the M3's. Compounding this issue further is the fact that the GT4's power delivery noticeably drops off short of redline, whereas the M3 pulls hard all the way to top. That compresses the GT4's effective power band even more, down to maybe 1750-2000 revs wide, compared to about 4000 revs on the M3. This isn't to say that the GT4’s engine is disappointing, because it isn’t – it’s just that the S65 in the M3 is an absolute masterpiece. There’s a reason it won International Engine of the Year in its category for the first 5 of the 6 years for which it was eligible, and even in its final year it finished second only to the engine in the MP4-12C. I’m told that in the 991S, which uses the same engine as found in the GT4, the engine has a better midrange and pulls stronger to redline (especially with the Power Kit option) because the 991S's intake plenum and larger throttle bodies allow more air flow. There are aftermarket plenums for the GT4, and the 911 throttle bodies can be added, but then you need a tune and probably exhaust headers to let that extra air in actually get out, and that’s just not worth it to me, especially since I only notice this on track, and even there it’s just noticeable, not bothersome.

Sound (the good kind, not cabin noise, which I’ll address later): Again, I call it a draw. The GT4's sound is of course more immediate thanks to the mid-engine placement (which also makes it louder when you're driving aggressively), and it definitely sounds special in its own right, but the thrill of a high-revving NA V8 is only available from a high-revving NA V8 -- and a truly special thrill it is, channeling muscle car sounds on the low end and F1 cars on the high end. It's the only thing that sort of makes me miss my M3 at the moment, since in basically every other way that matters I like the GT4 more, but on sound the GT4 is just a step sideways relative to the M3. The GT4 at light throttle has a sound that very much resembles gearbox whine but isn't (because it scales with revs even with the clutch in), which creates a sort of futuristic quasi-electric sound down low, but it starts snarling deliciously if you get on the throttle. And just like the M3, from inside the cabin you hear almost entirely intake noise with very little exhaust noise, which doesn’t bother me in either car because both have fantastic intake sounds and I’ve never been a loud exhaust guy anyway. Both the M3 and GT4 exhausts sound fantastic from the outside though, with the GT4's definitely being louder when PSE is enabled. But the S65 for both its aforementioned power delivery and its sound will always have a special place in my heart.

Transmission: I haven’t driven an S2000, but multiple people who have are saying that the GT4’s shifter is as good or better than the S2000, which is the benchmark here. I didn’t really have any complaints about the M3’s shifter (which could be since it was my first manual transmission car), but the GT4’s is otherworldly. The shifter is short, the throws are short, the weight is perfect, and the precision is amazing. No notchy feeling like the M3’s, and gates so well defined I can’t see EVER missing a shift in this car, even shifting under high lateral loads mid-corner on track. The clutch weight is similar to the E9x non-M cars, i.e. a bit heavier than the M3’s but still absolutely DDable. And even though I expected not to use it, the auto rev match feature is handy on track especially since I’m using 2nd in the GT4 out there, unlike the M3 where I’d usually roll through in 3rd since a 3>2 downshift was tricky in that car and the M3's gearing made it barely worth it at CotA. But I keep that feature disabled on the road since I still enjoy chasing perfectly smooth rev-matched downshifts on my own.

Steering: Similar to the above, I haven’t driven a 991 GT3, but people who have are saying that the GT4’s steering is a bit better than even that car. I’d never know that the GT4 used an electric rack just by driving it. It has more feedback than the M3’s hydraulic rack for sure, which is especially noticeable when loaded up mid-corner on track. The steering weight is similar to the M3 in Normal mode, which I ended up using full-time after using Sport early on during fun/track driving. The steering wheel diameter is noticeably smaller, which seems fitting on a smaller, more agile car, and the thickness of the rim is much less than the M3’s, though in fairness the M3’s wheel is much thicker than most cars. That took a bit of getting used to and for a while it bugged me that the GT4’s wheel didn’t feel as substantial, but I adjusted to that during the break-in and haven’t thought about it again until just now writing this. There are no infotainment controls on the GT4’s wheel, but the only ones I used on the M3 were to change tracks back and forth, and those buttons are on the driver’s side of the stereo and can be operated purely by feel, so I don’t miss those. I have the leather steering wheel btw, mostly because the Alcantara wheel didn’t wow me and I didn’t want to deal with having to either accept a gross wheel after a while or put up with cleaning it constantly.

Ride/seating comfort: Ride quality was a concern for me since I knew I would be DDing at least initially, wouldn’t be able to test drive a GT4 before committing, and would definitely be optioning the carbon fiber bucket seats – but happily it turned out to be a total non-issue. The ride is firm, as a performance car should be, but not at all harsh even though it’s designed for the track. Wonders of a modern suspension, I guess. With PASM in Normal, the ride is basically between the M3’s Normal and Sport EDC modes. In PASM Sport, the ride is noticeably firmer than the M3’s Sport mode, so just as I only used the M3’s Sport EDC mode on smooth tracks (since I had non-ZCP, I had the non-adaptive Sport mode), I only use PASM Sport on smooth tracks like CotA, which incidentally is what Porsche recommends anyway. The GT4’s Nurburgring time was set with it on Normal. As for the bucket seats, they’re absolutely astounding. Not only do they look drop-dead gorgeous, but I actually find them supremely comfortable, even more so than the M3’s seats where I always found myself slouching no matter what I did with the adjustments. I drove 200 miles home in them nonstop after taking delivery and got out without a single ache or pain, and my wife actually took a nap in them! I also found in the recent colder months that the Alcantara centers and wraparound nature of these seats creates a sort of natural seat heating effect for people who can't live without that feature in their cars. Yes, getting out of them takes a bit more effort, but even there I developed a finesse for that fairly quickly, so it’s not a chore for me at all. However, those with physical ailments and/or ladies wearing skirts would definitely have more of a challenge, but I think a bit of work on egress is worth the improved driving experience, because when driving for fun, you just feel that much more connected to the car and in tune with what it's doing. For reference, I’m 5'9", 195 lbs with a 34” waist and find that for me, the backrest width, backrest angle, overall seat recline angle, and seat depth and width are all PERFECTLY judged. I thought the reduced and firmer padding would make the ride harsh, but it didn't at all. It reminds me of when I went from a very cushy office chair to my Herman Miller Embody. Just goes to show that proper design can triumph over extra padding any day. That said, seat feel is definitely subjective. Skinny people have felt these seats aren't worth it since they're too wide to hold them in place, and pretty large people (250+ lb) have felt uncomfortably pinched in them, but most people who have tried them really like them. Some have also found lack of lumbar support to be an issue, but I don’t miss it at all, and there are lumbar cushions for that purpose. One point worth noting is that these seats only offer manual fore/aft and electric height adjustment, no backrest angle or overall tilt angle adjustments. As a result, you do sit pretty upright. I felt right at home since that’s what I had in my M3 given that it’s the proper driving position anyway, but I’ve also sat in the driver’s seat of other people’s cars and noticed how they’re set up for a “gangsta lean” posture. If that’s you, you would definitely have an adjustment period in these. Or of course you can instead get the regular 2-way or 18-way adjustable Sport Seats that you find on other Porsches, but you’d be missing out on some truly special seats.

General DD livability/practicality: I knew I could forego the rear seats, but again since I couldn’t test drive a GT4 beforehand, my main DD-related concerns other than ride comfort were (in no particular order) scraping issues due to the ride height and long overhang, cabin noise, stereo quality, cargo, and the Cup 2 tires – and even here it’s all basically good news. Prior to taking delivery, I started paying closer attention to driveway angles of shopping areas and such where my wife and I went, and there were some that I was sure would be non-starters if I ever had to take the GT4 there. Surprisingly, it hasn’t been a problem. I can take basically everything at an angle to avoid scraping at all (even on heinously steep driveways), and even some road grade changes that I thought would be a problem since an angled approach might not always be feasible I turned out to be able to take straight on. But worst case, the lip is unpainted plastic and is quick to swap, though at this rate I don’t think I’ll have to do that for at least a long while. In terms of cabin noise, it's louder than the M3, but not by enough to stand out for being annoyingly loud, and there's no drone. The stereo is fine, not notably good or notably terrible, just “fine”. Definitely short of the Enhanced Audio on the M3, and the bass is either a bit overblown with Loudness enabled or non-existent with it disabled (and the Bass slider doesn’t help here), but whatever, I hardly used the M3’s stereo anyway since I preferred to listen to the car, and the same is true here. The cargo situation is surprisingly good for this kind of car, mostly due to the rather wide and deep frunk. My friend with an R8 V10 6MT (disappointing car to me, btw) has a much smaller frunk and no rear storage at all, so his car can't really even be used to pick someone up at the airport. However, the fact that the GT4’s total storage is split between two areas means that you can’t take certain kinds of items in either area. For example, I have a watertight storage chest that holds lots of my track gear. It fit perfectly well into M3's trunk, but it’s just slightly too wide for the GT4's frunk, so I have to transport just its contents without the chest itself. Other wide items like framed art don’t really fit in either area very well, but oh well, part of the territory. As for the tires, you’re not supposed to drive on them in temperatures lower than 40 F, and I’m told they can be trouble in heavy rain. Since I can work from home I can probably work around this, but if not I’ll just put PSS on the OEM rims and buy a set of probably 19” track wheels. It’s too early to comment on tire wear rate, but the Cup 2s have a 180 treadwear rating, same as the AD08Rs I was running, and I figure with 8-12 track days per year I’ll probably wear them out on track use rather than road miles anyway, in which case I might not save much cash by getting separate street tires. We’ll see, but I’m hoping to avoid dealing with a second set of wheels, especially since unlike the M3 I can’t transport a full set of wheels in this car.

"In a perfect world" gripes: The aforementioned power delivery could be improved. The gearing could be a bit shorter; 2nd doesn't top out until something like 80 MPH, which is unfortunate given how sublime the shifting experience in this car is. The suspension could have come from the factory with the parts necessary to get a reasonable track alignment. The stereo could sound a bit better, and it would have been nice to have the next-gen PCM head unit that the GT4 just barely missed out on since it has CarPlay, Google Street View, and an overall more modern interface. Porsche Entry & Drive (BMW's Comfort Access) and a rear camera would both have been nice, but neither is available on the GT4. I wish I could have gotten the active headlamps without the stupid headlamp washer nipples (which Porsche ended up getting even more money from me to have painted in body color rather than the regular black....) And lastly, resting one's arms can be tricky. With my seat in the right position, the door sill is slightly higher than ideal for resting my elbow on it while cruising and driving one-handed. But more noticeably than that, the center console armrest is too LOW to comfortably rest my right elbow on, again while driving one-handed. Granted, raising it would have made the interior design look a bit odd, but as a result I find myself resting my right hand either on the shifter or just on my right leg. I noticed early on that something was "off" about the GT4's driving position that had me moving my arms a lot more on, off, and around the steering wheel and hanging onto the shifter while cruising, and I only recently realized that this was why. None of these is a huge deal by any means, though. Like I said, this is just the "in a perfect world" list.

Phew! That ended up being a lot longer than I’d planned, but there you go. Any questions??

EDIT: Just because, pics of the old and new cars:

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      03-23-2016, 07:40 PM   #2
Uber V8
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Wow, that review was like Randy Pobst, Carlos Lago and Motorweek all combined into one. Bravo!
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      03-23-2016, 08:50 PM   #3
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Great review. Great to hear the E92 still holds up pretty well compared with such an amazing car.... How much have your laptimes changed between the two cars at Cota?
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      03-23-2016, 08:55 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skru_fase View Post
Great review. Great to hear the E92 still holds up pretty well compared with such an amazing car.... How much have your laptimes changed between the two cars at Cota?
I've never timed myself. That's partly because technically my insurance coverage would be void if I did and I believe in being honest, but it's mostly because I know the same thing they seem to know, which is that people's decisions change when they're timing themselves, and not always for the better. I remember reading an article on the Nurburgring where the police said that when they arrive at the scene of a crash, 80% of the time they driver had some sort of timing device running. At the end of the day I'm out there to have fun for myself and teach other students, and I'd rather drive my car home than chase that last tenth. But over on Rennlist it looks like there are a fair number of people coming to the GT4 from E9x M3s, so I'm sure lap time differentials will become available through them.
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      03-23-2016, 08:58 PM   #5
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Great writeup jphughan

Thanks!
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      03-23-2016, 09:02 PM   #6
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Fantastic review John and thanks for sharing.
I sold my M3 for the GT4, got sick of waiting and then got me another, newer m3 with red seats!

Part of me that made me come back to the M3 is that at a deeper level I do not feel comfortable in a 6 figure car, especially since I will never have time to track it. We all have different yard-sticks I guess.
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      03-23-2016, 09:06 PM   #7
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Excellent review John......Now I really can't wait for my car to arrive. I hope it boards a vessel this week and gets underway. I too will add a review at some point........Phil
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      03-23-2016, 09:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malrash View Post
Fantastic review John and thanks for sharing.
I sold my M3 for the GT4, got sick of waiting and then got me another, newer m3 with red seats!

Part of me that made me come back to the M3 is that at a deeper level I do not feel comfortable in a 6 figure car, especially since I will never have time to track it. We all have different yard-sticks I guess.
If you wouldn't have tracked a GT4 at all, it would be total waste IMHO. You'd be better off with a Boxster Spyder as long as you're ok with the convertible look of course. Hell I think people who don't track even an E9x M3 are dooming themselves to never experiencing a huge chunk of its fun potential and value, and I don't think I'd have been able to justify its higher cost of an M3 over a non-M E9x car to myself if I were looking at the fun differential only on the road. But as you say, different yardsticks!
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      03-23-2016, 09:19 PM   #9
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Thanks so much for all this! The GT4 is one of my dream cars right now. So glad they're planning to sell more going forward, that they've released the 911 R for the purists and that the next GT3 will have a manual option.

What are your biggest let-downs about the R8 V10 manual? That's been on my "list" for a while, too...

I think a good solution to the lap time issue is to use something like Harry Lap Timer on your phone, but promise yourself that you'll only look at times after your day or weekend is over. That way, you can see your improvement over time, but you aren't trying to go out on your next run trying to best your previous time.
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      03-23-2016, 09:31 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jphughan View Post
If you wouldn't have tracked a GT4 at all, it would be total waste IMHO. You'd be better off with a Boxster Spyder as long as you're ok with the convertible look of course. Hell I think people who don't track even an E9x M3 are dooming themselves to never experiencing a huge chunk of its fun potential and value, and I don't think I'd have been able to justify its higher cost of an M3 over a non-M E9x car to myself if I were looking at the fun differential only on the road. But as you say, different yardsticks!


I agree. An S6 would be a much better DDer. However once you experience the s65, it's kinda impossible not to perpetually think about it, unless it's a GT3 or a V10 R8 or an LFA. Now that's worth the money. I'm an unabashed engine elitist, unfortunately.
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      03-23-2016, 09:57 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davesaddiction View Post
What are your biggest let-downs about the R8 V10 manual? That's been on my "list" for a while, too...

I think a good solution to the lap time issue is to use something like Harry Lap Timer on your phone, but promise yourself that you'll only look at times after your day or weekend is over. That way, you can see your improvement over time, but you aren't trying to go out on your next run trying to best your previous time.
I've thought about that Harry's strategy, but even if you wait to look at lap times until later, you're still out there knowing that you're trying to set a lap time. But yeah the people who have the predictive lap timing showing how far off pace they are from their theoretical best or their last lap is a whole other level of risk. No way I'd touch that while driving a car I wouldn't mind walking away from.

On the R8, it was one of my bucket list cars as well, so I sort of hated my friend when he first got it (before the GT4 existed). But I've now driven it twice out on Hill Country roads out here, once before and once after I got the GT4, and the simplest way to say it is that Audi's (semi-)supercar simply has too much Audi in it. The steering is numb and criminally overboosted (which all Audi models are, but I'd have expected better on the R8), and the suspension is a bit too soft even in the firmer setting. But my two biggest letdowns were the shifter and the noise, probably because those were where I'd expected to be wowed the most. Everyone raved about the "snick-snick" sound of the R8's open-faced shifter. I thought that was the sound that it made going into and out of gears -- turns out it's the noise it makes scraping against the walls of the gate! The shifter also doesn't have a lot of heft to it, and the gates are pretty narrow considering the width of the "dividers", so shifting felt flimsy rather than meaty, and an aggressive 2>3 shift carried a reasonable risk that you'd slam into the divider between 1st and 3rd rather than engaging 3rd. And I couldn't believe (in a bad way) how quiet the car was considering that there was a big 5.2L V10 right behind me. It was also kind of slow to rev compared to the S65, presumably because it had so much more rotating mass. In a lot of ways I thought the S65 gave the M3 more "theater" to its driving experience, which is especially disappointing considering that the R8's MSRP was 2.5x higher than my M3's. I don't know if Audi just had a mandate to keep the Gallardo adequately differentiated or if they deliberately designed the R8 for their A8/S8 customers who wanted a supercar that drove like an A8/S8, but considering how gorgeous it looks on the outside, I was disappointed behind the wheel.

So that was my first experience with it. The second time, I'd had my GT4 for a while and my friend had gotten a Capristo exhaust for his R8, and this time I drove it on a road with much tighter corners. On that drive I noticed how heavy the R8 is. I didn't notice before since it's 100 lbs lighter than the E92 and the corners were more sweepers, but it's 600 lbs heavier than a GT4, and having experienced the superior agility of the GT4 over my M3, I was left wanting with the R8. The Capristo exhaust definitely cured the sound problem (for $6K....), to the point that it was now a bit too loud for my taste, but it was still much better overall. But the other problem that these really twisty roads surfaced for me is that it just has too much power to be totally fun, at least in that setting -- instead, it's fun tainted too much by fear. The acceleration pulls I had were definitely exhilarating, thanks in no small part to AWD helping put all that power down, but getting all the way to redline in 2nd was frightening because of the rate of acceleration. The M3 (and GT4 for that matter) by comparison offer more than you need on public roads, but not so much more that it becomes LESS fun. I don't know, maybe I'd get more accustomed to the speed if I drove it on a regular basis. My M3 after all felt ludicrously quick to me when I first got it, and then after a while just felt "fun fast" as I adapted, though it always impressed/scared my friends who weren't used to performance cars. But I can't help but think that there's got to be a tipping point somewhere beyond which you do not acclimate fully, and the R8 V10 may be beyond that point. My buddy the owner drives it like a grandma, sadly, so he can't offer any insight here.

I'm reminded of the Evo 2015 CotY contest, specifically the evaluations of the GT3RS and 488 wherein they said that although both of those were phenomenal cars, both of them compared to their predecessors were just giving you more of what you can't use on public roads, whereas the GT4 won because it had plenty of power to be fun on public roads but not so much that you had to either be suicidal or just leave a huge chunk of the car's reserves untapped in that setting. I never thought I'd find myself wishing for less power in a car, and if it weren't for twisty back road driving I probably wouldn't for the R8 either, but the GT4 seems much better suited to that type of driving. The back to back experience just reinforced to me that not all fast cars are fun, and not all fun cars are fast. In my view, the GT4 strikes a very nice balance in the way it's fast without being scary fast, which allows it to be capable on track while remaining very fun on the road, arguably more fun than both some slower cars AND some faster cars.
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      03-23-2016, 10:33 PM   #12
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Jphughan. Awesome write up. I have not driven my GT4 that much as I got mine in Dec but your comments are right on. The motor in my M3 is definitely more flexible than the GT4 but both are good in their way.

I luv how you commented of where to place your elbow as that is the first thing I noticed compared to my m3. Was same issue as our Macan. I do miss all of the comfort access, steering wheel controls etc....

Surprised how perfect the suspension is for DD use. I did get the alcantara wheel as I have the alcantara wheel in my m3.

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      03-23-2016, 11:01 PM   #13
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Have you checked Porsche Cayman GT4 availability?
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      03-23-2016, 11:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
Have you checked Porsche Cayman GT4 availability?
They're still out there, including a few configurable allocations, but most of the ones that are still available are available because the dealers want markups. It's especially unfortunate in the case of configurable allocations because if they don't sell before the build locks, then the dealer configures whatever and deprives some customer the chance to get exactly what they wanted.

If you want to keep an eye out, look at the GT4 section of Rennlist. Sometimes people will post threads when they learn about availability.
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      03-24-2016, 12:21 AM   #15
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All that text and not even a single picture?? Jk, really enjoyed the read. I have never driven a porsche but I could only imagine it'd drive similar to my old s2000, just in a more refined way.
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      03-24-2016, 12:25 AM   #16
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Wonderful insight on the GT4. I'm sad to hear you were so disappointed with the R8, though. I had that car on my list as well for future purchases.
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      03-24-2016, 12:27 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STooK View Post
All that text and not even a single picture?? Jk, really enjoyed the read. I have never driven a porsche but I could only imagine it'd drive similar to my old s2000, just in a more refined way.
Added a couple, plus there's a link in my sig for delivery pics

Yeah it seems a fair number of GT4 buyers have S2000s for weekend/track cars, and apparently there's a distinct commonality to the driving experience. I'd love to drive an S2000 sometime.
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      03-24-2016, 01:54 AM   #18
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Great review. The GT4 sounds like a wonderful car and yours is beautiful. At the same time, your review made me feel good about my heavily modified E92 M3. Everybody wins!

Also, your review has left me wondering how amazing it would be to drop an S65 in a GT4. Perfect car at that point?
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      03-24-2016, 04:29 AM   #19
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Fantastic review, thank you for that. For a car released 8 years ago, such as the M3, to compare so favorably to modern track oriented Porsche is testament to how good the M3 was. The current market price for the M also makes it an unbelievable value. With all the modifications available it also also can be a true monster. I would have loved to see you compare an E92 M with KW Clubsports, Ohlins, or the like, SSK, front and rear Stoptech Trophies, larger tires.

A friend has the following done to their M, I can arrange for you to drive it as a comparison when you come out west

VF650 (custom tune)
Smaller pulley
ARH header system
Borla ATaK catback
Stoptech Trophy BBK
Trunk ice tank
CSF radiator
CSF intercooler
CSF oil cooler
Delrin diff mounts
Solid subframe
KW Clubsport
Apex Arc8
Yoko AD08
Braille lithium 6lb battery
Rear seat delete (custom foam panels)
UUC SSK
M Performance Steering wheel
Mode Carbon lip (arguable if it provides additional aero)
M spoiler (arguable if it provides additional aero)
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      03-24-2016, 08:11 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GVFlyer View Post
Have you checked Porsche Cayman GT4 availability?
As mentioned earlier, jump on one of the Pcar forums and wait it out. The only issue will be the "market adjustment" you'll see. The West Coast dealers are really doing it. While others won't sell to out of state customers. MSRP can be had but it is definitely the exception and not the rule. I feel so fortunate to be getting one and getting it at MSRP just make it that much more special......Phil
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      03-24-2016, 08:59 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hujan View Post
Great review. The GT4 sounds like a wonderful car and yours is beautiful. At the same time, your review made me feel good about my heavily modified E92 M3. Everybody wins!

Also, your review has left me wondering how amazing it would be to drop an S65 in a GT4. Perfect car at that point?
Ha! Most people are wishing they could shoehorn the 991 GT3's engine in there, but yeah an S65-powered GT4 would be amazing. As a kid I was actually never a fan of the flat 6 sound, but it definitely started growing on me when I started tracking and it sounds especially good in the GT4, but like I said a high-revving NA V8 is something really special. But from a practical standpoint, even if it magically fit, it would become impossible to work on. Porsche designs their engines so that basically all the parts you would need to work on are accessible from either underneath the car or from the front (through an access hatch behind the seats).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8k4 View Post
Fantastic review, thank you for that. For a car released 8 years ago, such as the M3, to compare so favorably to modern track oriented Porsche is testament to how good the M3 was. The current market price for the M also makes it an unbelievable value. With all the modifications available it also also can be a true monster. I would have loved to see you compare an E92 M with KW Clubsports, Ohlins, or the like, SSK, front and rear Stoptech Trophies, larger tires.

A friend has the following done to their M, I can arrange for you to drive it as a comparison when you come out west

VF650 (custom tune)
Smaller pulley
ARH header system
Borla ATaK catback
Stoptech Trophy BBK
Trunk ice tank
CSF radiator
CSF intercooler
CSF oil cooler
Delrin diff mounts
Solid subframe
KW Clubsport
Apex Arc8
Yoko AD08
Braille lithium 6lb battery
Rear seat delete (custom foam panels)
UUC SSK
M Performance Steering wheel
Mode Carbon lip (arguable if it provides additional aero)
M spoiler (arguable if it provides additional aero)
It's funny that you mention this, because I've thought about the same thing based on my experience. My instructor mentor runs a reasonably heavily modified E36 M3 (springs, shocks, sway bars, upsized front tires, camber plates, track-only alignment, exhaust, tune), and as a result of all that plus of course having a much lighter car, in an M3 two generations and ~15 years older than my E92, he was able to carry MUCH more speed through certain segments of CotA than I was, most notably T6 and the carousel. I'm sure if I'd done all those mods on my E92 I'd have opened most of that gap back up on him, but then again he doesn't DD his car, and having driven it on the road myself I can definitely see why. I wanted to keep my E92 DDable. Now in the GT4 I can walk away from him no problem while it remains civilized on the road, but of course I've got 20 years of suspension technology making that possible. But yes, once you start modding a car specifically for the track without much regard for road manners, you can make them competitive with much newer stock machinery at least in the corners. Still, even with an E92 modified enough to achieve lap times comparable to a stock(-ish) GT4, my guess is that it still won't feel as tossable because of the weight differential (even if its interior was stripped out) and the mid-engine layout. Cars that achieve similar lap times can feel very different in how they do it -- but then again maybe I'd love some aspect about the heavily modified M3 that isn't true of the stock GT4!

As for your offer, a supercharged E9x M3 has also been one of my bucket list cars to try out, and one that heavily modified I'm sure would elevate even that experience to a new level, but typically I'm only out west visiting family around Christmas in San Francisco. But I do appreciate it though!
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      03-24-2016, 09:10 AM   #22
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What an extensive and interesting Review - thanks!
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