Metal VANOS Cover Failure - MUST READ!

[Chrisyphus]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Lol, well, you could always revive the rod bearing argument

You're not gonna believe this, but I might be about to do just that in the coming weeks/months. We have a lot of research to do before I can say ANYTHING that isn't pure speculation with a heavy dose of potential misinformation. Still, we are noticing an extraordinarily concerning trend in the S65 cores we are receiving, and it has sent me down the rabbit trail of my career.


There's a 7/10 chance we're going to blow my motor working against the load cells in our 424XLC in the next month or two. IF that happens, A, (and this is the most important thing) I get a stroker sooner than expected, and B, far, far, far less importantly, it will confirm our hypothesis.


Jokes aside, I hope I am wrong, because if so, it will be an upheaval in S65 ownership doctrine. Until we know more for sure, this is all I can say on the topic, because until we do the work, it's a guess based on what we are seeing. But that is how a hypothesis is formed. Thankfully, we have an engine dyno, a chassis dyno with load cells, VIR is down the street (and track time is low cost (relatively speaking), an incredibly skilled tuner who can control every single DME-controlled parameter of the engine, and most importantly, the desire to know for a fact what is actually happening.

Originally Posted by IamFODI

I realize now I probably made your post seem a lot more confrontational than it was, or than how you meant it. My apologies. To anyone reading on, my interpretation is my own.

No, I didnt take it that way at all, but I appreciate the clarification!

Originally Posted by IamFODI

Completely agree there's nothing wrong with being wrong. That's just being human.

What separates men from boys is what we do when we find out we were wrong or missing something.

We're all here because the tide of community opinion means something. Every post here contributes to that tide, not just for us (screw us anyway – we're just a bunch of egos colliding) but for others who might read this thread for useful information. And, increasingly, for the LLMs that'll scrape this thread and make who-knows-what out of it.

This is actually a great point. Peter is... prolific.. on M5board as Herrubermensch. I cannot tell you how many times, while fact-checking, Google will feed me something Herrubermensch said 15 years ago lol. Also, the number of times I am fed pure misinformation from the forums via Google's AI is nearly as prolific. Searching for real, credible information, especially on heavily debated topics, is becoming almost impossible.

Originally Posted by IamFODI

On this topic, you might be a lot more credible than most of us here, and that does make it a bit more important for you to be visible in your intellectual honesty. But the rest of us have the same obligation, if for no other reason than that most readers of this thread will be unable or too lazy to understand why (and how, and to what extent) your opinion is worth more than the rest of ours.

The idea that the M Division threw bullshit plastic on this part just to be cheap should never have passed the smell test. The sheer obviousness of using a metal cover instead should have made us conclude that WE were probably the ones who were missing something. The fact that the plastic sometimes ages out and cracks should never have licensed an oh-shit-anything-must-be-better-than-this reaction.

100% agree. There are always two questions I ask myself when going into a project on a topic I am unfamiliar with- the first and most foundational is "what am I missing?" If I cannot clearly articulate the design decisions made by the OEM to myself and my peers, I have more research to do. Period. Hand waving is wholly insufficient. "Confidence is the feeling we had before we fully understood the situation." More projects than I would like to admit die in this stage. The aforementioned topic with Assimilator could be a perfect example.

This thread is a prime example of me going through this process in real time.

The second is "Am I a monkey sitting around a ladder?" Referring to the following parable:

In a room, there were five monkeys.

A bunch of bananas hung from the ceiling, and a ladder stood nearby.

Inquisitive and hungry, one of the monkeys climbed the ladder and reached for a banana. As soon as he did so, a scientist opened a porthole and drenched all the monkeys with a high-pressure ice-cold hose.

After a few minutes, angry and dripping wet, but no less inquisitive and hungry, another monkey decided to give it a go. He climbed the ladder and reached for a banana. As soon as he did so, the scientist opened the porthole again and drenched all the monkeys with the hose.

After a few more minutes, another monkey decided to give it a go. This time, his mates were having none of it. As soon as he touched the ladder, they rallied around and beat him up.

None of the monkeys dared go near the ladder anymore.

The next day, the scientist removed one of the monkeys and replaced him with a new one. Since this monkey was not aware of the consequences, he headed straight for the ladder. The other monkeys headed him off and beat him up.

The next day, the scientist removed another monkey and replaced him with a new one. Since this monkey was not aware of the consequences, he headed straight for the ladder. Again, the other monkeys headed him off and beat him up.

This continued for a few more days. Each time, like clockwork, the new monkey would head for the ladder, and the other monkeys would beat him up.

Then on Day 6, a strange thing happened. Yes, the new monkey headed for the ladder, and the other monkeys beat him up. However, none of those monkeys was an original from Day 1. They all dutifully beat up the new guy, but they had no idea why!

I see it all too often in this industry- "we do it this way because it's the way it's always been done and it works." Okay, but I need to know why it works if I am going to make design decisions around it. I cannot, in good conscience, just do what works because I was told it is the way. I need to know the rationale behind a decision so I can determine whether it is the optimal choice or if there is a better way, thanks to more modern manufacturing methodologies.

So many of the guys who are "the guy" or touted as a guru, are just doing what they were taught because that is how they were trained to do it; or they found some special sauce that works, but cannot deviate from that formula because they do not knowwhy it works. I am not knocking them for that- it takes skill and attention to detail to earn their reputations, but to me... for me, not good enough.

Originally Posted by IamFODI

And if all it takes to kill a thread is to suggest that maybe one of the world's greatest engine builders might have had a point, the thread deserves to die.

Fair enough lol.

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by Chrisyphus

If I cannot clearly articulate the design decisions made by the OEM to myself and my peers, I have more research to do. Period. Hand waving is wholly insufficient. "Confidence is the feeling we had before we fully understood the situation."

Love this. What a refreshing contrast vs. the vast majority of the aftermarket.

Looking forward to seeing what you're cooking up!

[johnmiller]

Redd,

How are your Slon covers holding up? Any issues? Thx

[Assimilator1]

I've got Slon covers here too, will be re-checking them in March, a little before I put it back on the road. Fingers crossed!

Chrisyphus blow my motor working against the load cells in our 424XLC - what are those? lol
Re S65, I hope it's not more no1 mains failing, we've had a very low level of them failing over the years, but I am wondering if it's becoming slightly more frequent....
Btw, have you seen this thread? Curious as to your thoughts? (although if we start a conversation about this, perhaps post in another thread? Perhaps here?).

[Redd]

Originally Posted by johnmiller

Redd,

How are your Slon covers holding up? Any issues? Thx

I've changed them to large stainless washers (Carbahn style) for peace of mind. So can't comment on the Slon covers anymore.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by johnmiller

Redd,

How are your Slon covers holding up? Any issues? Thx

Still run with Slon, all good.