Official S65 Injector Failure Thread

[BimmerRob08]

Originally Posted by jvictormp

I don't know about gasoline, but in diesel engines here in Brazil, due to bio-diesel dilution getting greater overtime, we are having trouble with some engines due to sludge formation (not dirt exactly, but kind of a separation of substances in the diesel, oxidation of the fuel itself). Not in months, but in days.

People are solving that problem here by using diesel stabilizers like Almax (VW).

About gasoline, the only thing I know here is that regular gas should be consumed before 3 months, while top tier gas has that time extended to 6 months. If it has anything with injector failure like diesel does, I don't know.

Yes, I’ve heard about the same. In the US I use premium gasoline from like Shell or Chevron of course and my car sits regularly for like 23 months and I’ve never had a problem. I will be doing a fuel injector replacement because it’s just passed 100,000 miles Just for good measure, but I don’t think I really need to put stabilizer in it for when it sits in the garage for 23 months max. Other is more smart than us on gasoline can chime in with their thoughts. Greatly appreciated.

[spammysammich]

Sitting soaked in up to 5%ethanol gas for that long probably isn’t great for the fuel system. Just look at the s85 engines in garage queens that have been lost due to lost to injector failure. Our engines were designed in that same era and while I have no empirical data to support this, anecdotally from the Subaru community fuel systems around that time frame were not designed for ethanol fuels. Garage queens sat with e85 for long periods would develop soft slimy rubbery tube walls that destroyed injectors. Also if injectors had rubber components internally they were pitted and attacked by the ethanol. I don’t recall wide adoption of ethanol fuels until around 2008 ish? I highly doubt BMW had originally designed our fuel systems for ethanol compatibility.

[spammysammich]

Again this is just my opinion, not based on actual evidence and I realize correlation isn’t necessarily causation. But it sure seems like a strong coincidence

I’m also cross referencing bore scoring issues from the non-metzger Porsche engines of this vintage. PCCA talks a lot about bore scoring and injector failure.

[jvictormp]

Ethanol percentage in Brazil regular gas is 30% now, and top tier gas, 25%.

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by jvictormp

Ethanol percentage in Brazil regular gas is 30% now, and top tier gas, 25%.

What the crap! That's insane.


Ethanol in Brazil comes from sugar cane, right?

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by IamFODI

What the crap! That's insane.


Ethanol in Brazil comes from sugar cane, right?

Yes

[BimmerRob08]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

Again this is just my opinion, not based on actual evidence and I realize correlation isn’t necessarily causation. But it sure seems like a strong coincidence

I’m also cross referencing bore scoring issues from the non-metzger Porsche engines of this vintage. PCCA talks a lot about bore scoring and injector failure.

Good points to consider. My plan is to burn off this fuel that’s in the tank since last driven few months ago with some fresh fuel and plan to do the injectors, TA, possibly install a fuel filter in the engine bay like the NRW one or similar and in the future put stabilizer in the tank.

Question on the stabilizer, does it stabilize the fuel composition of the 10% ethanol? In other words help prevent it from congealing? And I do have access to Shell non ethanol fuel too but not sure if that is safe to run. I’m guessing, since I never have it much thought at the time, European fuel and also US fuel back in 2008 and on when I ordered the car, didn’t run ethanol at the time?

I remember European fuel not setting off my check light for running high flow CAT’s while I was stationed in Europe and didn’t have DINAN stage 2 software at the time. Filling up on US grade shit fuel on base in England it would throw the light on, but not in Germany with off base fuel like Agip, Q8, etc. I don’t know if that had anything to do with ethanol at the time or the quality of the fuel.

[spammysammich]

Non ethanol fuel is the safest for any car to run.

[spammysammich]

Originally Posted by BimmerRob08

Good points to consider. My plan is to burn off this fuel that’s in the tank since last driven few months ago with some fresh fuel and plan to do the injectors, TA, possibly install a fuel filter in the engine bay like the NRW one or similar and in the future put stabilizer in the tank.

Question on the stabilizer, does it stabilize the fuel composition of the 10% ethanol? In other words help prevent it from congealing? And I do have access to Shell non ethanol fuel too but not sure if that is safe to run. I’m guessing, since I never have it much thought at the time, European fuel and also US fuel back in 2008 and on when I ordered the car, didn’t run ethanol at the time?

I remember European fuel not setting off my check light for running high flow CAT’s while I was stationed in Europe and didn’t have DINAN stage 2 software at the time. Filling up on US grade shit fuel on base in England it would throw the light on, but not in Germany with off base fuel like Agip, Q8, etc. I don’t know if that had anything to do with ethanol at the time or the quality of the fuel.

I think ethanol use started in the US around 2006, widespread adoption of it peaked during 2008 with the recession driving corn/ethanol subsidies to my recollection. I’m happy to be wrong about this though. But if you consider how long automotive development can take for mass production it is safe to assume specifications for the S85/65 engines began to lock around 2004-2005. Predating use of ethanol safe materials in fuel lines.

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

Non ethanol fuel is the safest for any car to run.

Unless it doesn't have known octane rating.

I mean, if you can get directly from the pump, let's say, 95 RON ethanol-free gasoline, that's good.

But if you plan to get a 95 RON 10% ethanol gasoline, and add water, let it separate (by ethanol getting atracted to water), and then removing the water parcel, leaving an ethanol-free gasoline, be advised that that gasoline is not 95 RON octane. It's way below that, and you risk pre-detonating the engine hard.

[Assimilator1]

BMW state that e10 fuel is quite safe to be used in our M3s.
Their was a big info campaign ran here in the UK a few years ago on the news when e10 replaced e5 for regular petrol.
Over this way at least, in general, most cars after the early 2000s are ok with e10 (e.g my mothers 2003 Suzuki Wagon R is fine with e10 according to Suzuki).

But, I thought the problem with later cars and ethanol is not the ethanol itself, but that it is more hygroscopic, and it's the greater amount of water absorbed in the fuel coming out in some conditions? (Perhaps sitting around for a long time?).

Bimmerrob
Did you mean 23 months? or 2-3 months, 23 is a long time!

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

....

No I didn't, not seen an M3 one so far, got a pic of one?

No?

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

No?

Sorry, I couldn't find any. Which kinda proves what I'm saying. I mean, you would see many filter media replacement options if it were serviceable, right?

What I saw was a video shared on an brazilian E9X Whatsapp group where a guy cracked it open with a grinder just for curiosity.

Result was a dirty filter media, but nothing that would change the world.

I asked him to send it again, but he couldn't manage to find it anymore.

You know, if a fuel filter is not saturated after 50~100k miles, either the fuel is top level clean or the filter doesn't hold the dirt enough.

Fuel here is not clean.

[Thumbie]

I definitely plan on having my fuel filter replaced at the next service (just passed 100k miles) and going to replace injectors shortly after. Planning to do both again at 200k miles.

Probably not necessary but the peace of mind is worth it in my opinion. They also claimed the DCT fluid is "lifetime" as well be we all know that wasn't the best advice either.

I know more people who've lost an S65 from a dirty injector stuck open, than failed rod bearing.

[RocketyMan]

FWIW, I have a stuck injector that took out my buddy's engine. If anyone is interested, I'd be willing to send them the injector to do a deep-dive analysis.

Maybe someone with a waterjet can cut open the injector to see the failure point?

Just an idea.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by RocketyMan

FWIW, I have a stuck injector that took out my buddy's engine. If anyone is interested, I'd be willing to send them the injector to do a deep-dive analysis.

Maybe someone with a waterjet can cut open the injector to see the failure point?

Just an idea.

I'm sorry to hear that. Can you share more details pls - mileage, type of fuel used, details of failure, any errors, etc.?

[RocketyMan]

These injectors failed after less than 1000 miles of driving after I took them off to clean them. I suspect that was the reason they failed.

It was an automatic fuel injector cleaner/tester. They flowed fine. Everything was within 5% flowrate and no leaks. Wasn't until I put them back in that one failed stuck open and lost a cylinder over the road.

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by RocketyMan

These injectors failed after less than 1000 miles of driving after I took them off to clean them. I suspect that was the reason they failed.

It was an automatic fuel injector cleaner/tester. They flowed fine. Everything was within 5% flowrate and no leaks. Wasn't until I put them back in that one failed stuck open and lost a cylinder over the road.

Oof. That sucks, man.


Might be worth the broader community looking into how many injector failures might have happened after preventive maintenance on/involving the injectors.

[RocketyMan]

I should also mention that part of the cleaning I did involved doing the ultrasonic bath. There's some speculation on the m5 boards where this could break down the filter screen media.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by jvictormp

Sorry, I couldn't find any. Which kinda proves what I'm saying. I mean, you would see many filter media replacement options if it were serviceable, right?

What I saw was a video shared on an brazilian E9X Whatsapp group where a guy cracked it open with a grinder just for curiosity.

Result was a dirty filter media, but nothing that would change the world.

I asked him to send it again, but he couldn't manage to find it anymore.

You know, if a fuel filter is not saturated after 50~100k miles, either the fuel is top level clean or the filter doesn't hold the dirt enough.

Fuel here is not clean.

Oh well, thanks for trying anyway.
As for the lack of media replacement options, typically tank filters are gauzes and don't need to be replaced and are simply cleaned (if needed).
I work at a Suzuki dealer, a few months ago we had a 20+year old Wagon R where I need to take the tank pump assem out, their really wasn't much dirt in it and the gauze filter was in good condition (although I think it was a low mileage car).

That reminds me, although you may have found out since otherwise, in the m3 cutters injector thread you replied to a few years ago you intimated that the M3's were somewhat unique in only having a tank filter.
This is definitely not the case, the vast majority of manufacturers switched to tank filters around about the mid 2000s for petrol cars (at least for the UK & EU), e.g Nissan Micra K12 2002>, Suzuki Grand Vitara ~2006>, Ford Focus Mk2 2005> to name a few.
I've not come across, nor heard of these failing or clogging up under normal use, not saying it never happens mind! Just that at best it is rare.
So why would our M3's be uniquely(?) affected by these coarse tank filters?
I don't buy it, unless the filters are disintegrating and splitting open? (Hence wanting to check mine, if I can!).
If so, are other e9xs affected? (335i DI injectors aside ).

Originally Posted by RocketyMan

These injectors failed after less than 1000 miles of driving after I took them off to clean them. I suspect that was the reason they failed.

It was an automatic fuel injector cleaner/tester. They flowed fine. Everything was within 5% flowrate and no leaks. Wasn't until I put them back in that one failed stuck open and lost a cylinder over the road.

Damn, sorry to hear that

I'm actually looking to get hold of a jammed injector! (to then pay a specialist to determine what's wrong with it). But you're the other side of the pond, so I suspect it would be rather pricey to post.

[RocketyMan]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Oh well, thanks for trying anyway.
As for the lack of media replacement options, typically tank filters are gauzes and don't need to be replaced and are simply cleaned (if needed).
I work at a Suzuki dealer, a few months ago we had a 20+year old Wagon R where I need to take the tank pump assem out, their really wasn't much dirt in it and the gauze filter was in good condition (although I think it was a low mileage car).

That reminds me, although you may have found out since otherwise, in the m3 cutters injector thread you replied to a few years ago you intimated that the M3's were somewhat unique in only having a tank filter.
This is definitely not the case, the vast majority of manufacturers switched to tank filters around about the mid 2000s for petrol cars (at least for the UK & EU), e.g Nissan Micra K12 2002>, Suzuki Grand Vitara ~2006>, Ford Focus Mk2 2005> to name a few.
I've not come across, nor heard of these failing or clogging up under normal use, not saying it never happens mind! Just that at best it is rare.
So why would our M3's be uniquely(?) affected by these coarse tank filters?
I don't buy it, unless the filters are disintegrating and splitting open? (Hence wanting to check mine, if I can!).
If so, are other e9xs affected? (335i DI injectors aside ).



Damn, sorry to hear that

I'm actually looking to get hold of a jammed injector! (to then pay a specialist to determine what's wrong with it). But you're the other side of the pond, so I suspect it would be rather pricey to post.

Darn. Well I still have it. I can literally blow air straight thru it.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by RocketyMan

Darn. Well I still have it. I can literally blow air straight thru it.

Wow!

Btw, what's the year and mileage of your friend's car? And which injector failed? (would be handy to know so I can add his case to the blown engines list).