Metal VANOS Cover Failure - MUST READ!

[DrFerry]

Here's a couple of Vanos cover manufacturers I found that I didn't know about. These designs more closely mimic the OEM design with much more circumferential clamping surface area i.e. much wider tabs. Yeah, I know Carbahn and Mporium's are the best, but for those not capable of - or not wanting to re-time the engine - these look pretty good.
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Underground Street Performance in Belgium
https://www.underground-street-perfo...5-vanos-covers
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Ventrax Motorsports in the U.K. (looks very similar to the Evolve covers)
https://ventraxmotorsportshop.com/pr...t-vanos-covers
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Video by Ventrax
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[shane060]

Mporium here. Definitely had to pay that extra fee for the retiming but me personally I would constantly have a fear of the unknown if I went with the clip on variant.

[charliev68]

Ventax looks promising. If I had to use clip on covers I would use them.
Although I would never use clip on covers!
With the timing tool, it’s simple to unbolt and retime the engine. It’s even better because you’re resetting the timing chain for any stretch.

[Johnny E92]

Originally Posted by shane060

Mporium here. Definitely had to pay that extra fee for the retiming but me personally I would constantly have a fear of the unknown if I went with the clip on variant.

100% agree, hence I went with the Mporium ones also.

Don’t understand why the debate is still going on, anything that bolts on is surely better than something clipped on.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by charliev68

Ventax looks promising. If I had to use clip on covers I would use them.
Although I would never use clip on covers!
With the timing tool, it’s simple to unbolt and retime the engine. It’s even better because you’re resetting the timing chain for any stretch.

And that's a key point, if we have the timing tools, as well as the extra time (cost or personal time) to fit the bolt on covers.
How much do those timing tools cost? And how long does it take to fit the bolt on covers?
Good point about compensating for any timing chain wear though (probably more of an issue for high mileage cars?).

Agreed about the Ventax ones, I would buy those now if I hadn't already bought Slon ones.

Originally Posted by Johnny E92

100% agree, hence I went with the Mporium ones also.

Don’t understand why the debate is still going on, anything that bolts on is surely better than something clipped on.

Because the clip ones are plenty good enough (when made properly). The plastic ones have lasted over a decade haven't they? Ally is clearly stronger and longer lasting.
It seems to me their is some degree of scare mongering going on with the metal clip on ones.
That said, I don't deny that the bolt on ones are stronger, just overkill IMO.

[e92dud]

Originally Posted by Johnny E92

100% agree, hence I went with the Mporium ones also.

Don’t understand why the debate is still going on, anything that bolts on is surely better than something clipped on.

The debate in my mind comes from the fact bmw didn’t bolt them on. The metal one is more centrifugal force to that vanos bolt, who’s to say that bolt head won’t shear since it wasn’t designed to hold a massive washer. Not an engineer, just don’t understand why I wouldn’t put the same ones on every time I do the
Valve cover.

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by e92dud

The debate in my mind comes from the fact bmw didn’t bolt them on. The metal one is more centrifugal force to that vanos bolt, who’s to say that bolt head won’t shear since it wasn’t designed to hold a massive washer. Not an engineer, just don’t understand why I wouldn’t put the same ones on every time I do the
Valve cover.

Exactly.

Same conversation as with any mod. The OEM could have done it this way; they didn't. Are we going to gamble that they didn't have good reasons? And not only that, but also that a shop with vastly fewer resources could do better? Plenty of cases to support that, e.g. E46 M3 rear subframe mounts. But if you stack those up vs. the cases in which the OEM turned out to have a point, the odds get long in a hurry.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by IamFODI

Exactly.

Same conversation as with any mod. The OEM could have done it this way; they didn't. Are we going to gamble that they didn't have good reasons? And not only that, but also that a shop with vastly fewer resources could do better? Plenty of cases to support that, e.g. E46 M3 rear subframe mounts. But if you stack those up vs. the cases in which the OEM turned out to have a point, the odds get long in a hurry.

Always remember BMW made these cars to a budget. Corners had to be cut in certain areas I'm sure. I'm not specifically saying that BMW cut corners by using plastic VANOS covers but who knows? Do you?

Also there was no way BMW would know that the plastic vanos covers would start disintegrating after 15 years.

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by Redd

Always remember BMW made these cars to a budget. Corners had to be cut in certain areas I'm sure. I'm not specifically saying that BMW cut corners by using plastic VANOS covers but who knows? Do you?

"We don't know" is exactly my point.

What's in question here is who gets the benefit of the doubt – BMW M or the aftermarket.

Originally Posted by Redd

Also there was no way BMW would know that the plastic vanos covers would start disintegrating after 15 years.

Sure there was. They might not be able to pin down a specific time frame, but they could easily figure out the forces acting on those covers, and they'd have some info how materials respond to heat cycles etc., so they could at least make a decent estimate.

But either way, that's not the question that matters here. The question that matters here is, how strong is the evidence that metal clip-on or bolt-on covers are less problematic than OE covers? Given that failures of OE covers seem rare to begin with, it looks like the answer is "not very strong thus far."

Time will tell.

Until then, anyone installing an aftermarket solution is gambling. Which... honestly, we should be grateful for, because that's the only way to have a chance of finding out for sure.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by IamFODI

The question that matters here is, how strong is the evidence that metal clip-on or bolt-on covers are less problematic than OE covers? Given that failures of OE covers seem rare to begin with, it looks like the answer is "not very strong thus far."

Time will tell.

Totally agree here. Just like how some people still think the RBs issue is overblown. You place your bet and you take your chances.

[bobbert]

Has anyone shared how to remove clip-on covers if wanting to upgrade to bolt-through covers? I'm thinking pocket screwdriver(s) wedged between the hub circumference and cover inner diameter to pop off the clips.

EPM just sent out an email about the known flaws of aluminum covers but hasn't shared instructions on how to swap to their steel covers.

I'm seeing a sudden increase in aluminum content on my Blackstone reports since installing EPM's v2 alu covers (at 131k mi) and it can't be coincidence.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by bobbert

Has anyone shared how to remove clip-on covers if wanting to upgrade to bolt-through covers? I'm thinking pocket screwdriver(s) wedged between the hub circumference and cover inner diameter to pop off the clips.

EPM just sent out an email about the known flaws of aluminum covers but hasn't shared instructions on how to swap to their steel covers.

I'm seeing a sudden increase in aluminum content on my Blackstone reports since installing EPM's v2 alu covers (at 131k mi) and it can't be coincidence.

I don't know EPM but did they sell alu covers first just to say it was crab and ask the same customers to buy their steel version, or replacement for free?

[KawBoy]

[BenFenner]

I'm reading through this thread for the second time (first time in years) now that I'm doing more research on the topic.
Excuse the replies to very old posts...

Originally Posted by Zark get a spanner

A special reminder, no matter which Vanos covers you use, you have to manually rotate the crankshaft when you install them.

That's no longer the case now that we have the Evolve solution. They have so much rotational play when installed* that they can be secured on the lower side first, pressed on to secure the top side, and then rotated slightly by hand (feel that play!) to make sure they are seated properly without needing to pay special attention to the bottom or rotating the crank.

* As seen in their YouTube install video and reported elsewhere multiple times and experienced personally myself during install. I'm not not saying this is overall good or bad right now...

Originally Posted by Redd

One of the things that surprised me the most was the pic showing how the hook had worn down due to rubbing against the steel vanos gear. Whether it's 6061 or 7075, anytime alu rubs against steel, alu will lose.

I agree with the other person who mentioned that plastic is even worse in this regard, and we don't see the plastic covers failing in this way...

Originally Posted by rantarM3

Here's a different approach to correcting this problem, although it seems the whole VANOS unit has to come out.

https://mehenker.com/pl/regeneracja-...40-s65-v8.html

Very interesting, and especially useful for a thread I'm working on. Thank you, I've added it.

Originally Posted by Helmsman

[The Mehenker solution with the capped pins] is in my eyes the obvious way the spring lock should have been desiged in the first place. BMW engineers are obviously clever but I simply can't understand this one.

Ehhh, it's a pretty crappy solution when you consider windage, and oil retention. The factory cover is MUCH better in windage, and likely serves a useful purpose for oil retention. It also likely makes the hub more difficult to balance (if they even tried).

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Here's a couple of Vanos cover manufacturers I found that I didn't know about.

Underground Street Performance in Belgium
https://www.underground-street-perfo...5-vanos-covers

<snip>

These are actually made by TPE Precision and are the first/only 3-printed (sintered?) aluminum option we've seen so far.

Interesting you didn't find the MMX solution with your research, but it's all good. I've included it in my list as well:
BMW S65 VANOS hub cover options (all inclusive).

[a5m]

Originally Posted by BenFenner

I'm reading through this thread for the second time (first time in years) now that I'm doing more research on the topic.
Excuse the replies to very old posts...



These are actually made by TPE Precision and are the first/only 3-printed (sintered?) aluminum option we've seen so far.

Interesting you didn't find the MMX solution with your research, but it's all good. I've included it in my list as well:
BMW S65 VANOS hub cover options (all inclusive).

Great info. Appreciate the more in-depth type of discussion on these kinds of topics.

Do you have a recommendation for what you'd consider the 'best' solution? Thoughts on the Mporium covers? I've wondered about the rotational mass too and how that affects things. BMW chose plastic for a reason.

I'm pretty close to installing mine, but wouldn't mind changing course especially if that means I don't gotta re-time the engine.

[spammysammich]

BMW chose plastic because it was the cheapest option that did the job well enough. Bean counter engineering. I would put money on that bet. Engine builders like Carbahn chose to go with solid washers. If they are a problem they’ll be the ones to ask. Also note, out of modern BMW engines, how many use cheap plastic spring caps?

[BenFenner]

Originally Posted by a5m

Do you have a recommendation for what you'd consider the 'best' solution?

As mentioned in the intro to my post, I've put the units in the order in which I would recommend them. So for the clip-on style right now I would recommend Ventrax/Evolve/MMX as nearly identically good (from what I can tell over here at my keyboard).


For the bolt-on solutions...

Originally Posted by a5m

Thoughts on the Mporium covers?

I don't like them as much as the CarBahn solution because of the mass/inertia and cost, but they are a great second place bolt-on option IMO.

It has me thinking... I wonder why we don't have any bolt-on aluminum options...

As for over-all best between clip-on and bolt-on my take right now is that the bolt-on solution is best, provided you're prepared to re-time the engine properly and/or pay for that work.

(I went with a clip-on solution because I did not want to deal with re-timing things right now or in the foreseeable future.)

Originally Posted by a5m

I've wondered about the rotational mass too and how that affects things.

It will change how quickly the engine can gain or lose RPM by a VERY VERY small amount. Similar to changing the mass on the crank/flywheel/etc., but imperceptibly small because of the amount of mass we're talking about, how close it is to the rotational center, and how slowly the cams rotate (half engine speed) comparatively.

The windage issue is way more important IMO, and is why it is left-most in my tables.

(This is probably discussion we could be having in my linked thread, to avoid derailing this one.)

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

BMW chose plastic because it was the cheapest option that did the job well enough. Bean counter engineering. I would put money on that bet. Engine builders like Carbahn chose to go with solid washers. If they are a problem they’ll be the ones to ask. Also note, out of modern BMW engines, how may use cheap plastic spring caps?

8400 RPM redline
Idles stably down to 500 RPM
12:1 compression ratio and >100 hp/L NA on pump gas without direct injection
Runs smoothly in basically any climate on earth
Has 8 throttle bodies and yet leaks are a non-issue
Withstands track use all day even in hot climates with stock cooling and oiling
Daily drives like any V8
Only has one real big-ticket failure mode, and even that isn't huge
Aside from that, has comparable maintenance requirements to any good street car engine
Regularly takes forced induction (+50% horsepower or more) for tens of thousands of miles

All at the same time, right from the factory – which cranked these engines out by the tens of thousands – all with mid-to-late-2000s tech

Best bean counters ever IMO

[Redd]

Originally Posted by BenFenner

I agree with the other person who mentioned that plastic is even worse in this regard, and we don't see the plastic covers failing in this way...

The original plastic covers don't fail in this manner because they don't unhook from the VANOS gear and rub against the steel gear. The plastic cover failure mode is plastic brittleness causing them to crack and break apart.

[BenFenner]

Sure, except there is a good bit of talk in this thread about the covers wearing in place (without the any of the tangs coming loose). There is discussion of increased gaps between the aluminum clip and the steel hub in situ. Post #116 for example:
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=116

I think we can agree either the plastic covers would suffer from this as well, or there is no wear happening on the aluminum covers in this "failure" mode.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by BenFenner

Sure, except there is a good bit of talk in this thread about the covers wearing in place (without the any of the tangs coming loose). There is discussion of increased gaps between the aluminum clip and the steel hub in situ. Post #116 for example:
https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=116

I think we can agree either the plastic covers would suffer from this as well, or there is no wear happening on the aluminum covers in this "failure" mode.

I remember this discussion and failed to understand how the clips could wear as they are fixed in place. Simply found that hard to believe.

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

I remember this discussion and failed to understand how the clips could wear as they are fixed in place. Simply found that hard to believe.

IDK. Lots of high-frequency vibration up there. I'd be shocked if one could attach something with nothing but clips and not have something like this happen at some point, even if the clips seemed quite secure.

Also, friendly reminder that whenever this happens, it's releasing metal particles into the oil.