Camber plates advice please

[bipp]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

The Fall Line rear camber shim kit is great for an OEM rear setup.

Just keep in mind that more negative camber = more heat in your tires, so it really depends on your needs and goals. If you need to generate more heat, then running more negative camber is necessary. However, there’s a point where adding more doesn’t necessarily improve performance—going from -3 to -3.5 degrees, for example, might not yield better lap times and could reduce your contact patch, depending on tire size.

Too much camber can also affect braking performance. Excessive camber can still compromise overall grip, making the car slower despite ideal tire temps. It’s all about finding the right balance between mid-corner grip and maintaining stability under braking and acceleration. IMO, it comes down to driving style—some prefer more entry grip at the cost of exit speed, while others prioritize stability on corner exit and sacrifice some initial turn-in response.

Personally, I tend to adjust my camber settings before fine-tuning tire pressures. Camber adjustments give me much faster and more noticeable results, whereas tire pressure changes don’t impact tire temps as drastically. Once I dial in the camber, I’ll fine-tune the pressure to get the most even temps across the tire.

Marking your camber settings on your plates is a good idea if you plan to swap between street and track setups.

Absolutely, that makes sense...

Right now, I don't think my driving is at the point where I'm really optimizing an alignment for track times - if anything, I want to go faster, but ekeing another day or two out of tires is basically free money. Maybe I'll find that I prefer it one way or the other over time, but I feel like at -3/-2 I still have a bit more negative to go before I run into adverse effects. Obviously, the right answer will be to experiment and also to get a pyrometer for the data, but I'm sure eventually I'll find what works for me.

I don't think I street drive enough to really, really care about street alignment lol. Saves the hassle at least :P

Thanks for the post! Really appreciate it.

[TheMechanic]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

The Fall Line rear camber shim kit is great for an OEM rear setup.

Just keep in mind that more negative camber = more heat in your tires, so it really depends on your needs and goals. If you need to generate more heat, then running more negative camber is necessary. However, there’s a point where adding more doesn’t necessarily improve performance—going from -3 to -3.5 degrees, for example, might not yield better lap times and could reduce your contact patch, depending on tire size.

Too much camber can also affect braking performance. Excessive camber can still compromise overall grip, making the car slower despite ideal tire temps. It’s all about finding the right balance between mid-corner grip and maintaining stability under braking and acceleration. IMO, it comes down to driving style—some prefer more entry grip at the cost of exit speed, while others prioritize stability on corner exit and sacrifice some initial turn-in response.

Personally, I tend to adjust my camber settings before fine-tuning tire pressures. Camber adjustments give me much faster and more noticeable results, whereas tire pressure changes don’t impact tire temps as drastically. Once I dial in the camber, I’ll fine-tune the pressure to get the most even temps across the tire.

Marking your camber settings on your plates is a good idea if you plan to swap between street and track setups.

But camber change = toe change from what I experienced, so how do you correct your toe on the track ; or you do it once , set and forget ?

[TheMechanic]

I just want to add that on this car, these tires and my driving style; anything over 40PSI pressure on rear creates greasy rear, and starts sliding early. Same on front... so I have to keep it just below 40 to keep it consistent. I was running 38- 39 hot when I got out from memory, and car was predictable for the full hour of driving... YMMV I guess.
I should keep a little notebook and write down the pressure, outside temps and track I guess, I forget what I did, I am old

[bipp]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

I just want to add that on this car, these tires and my driving style; anything over 40PSI pressure on rear creates greasy rear, and starts sliding early. Same on front... so I have to keep it just below 40 to keep it consistent. I was running 38- 39 hot when I got out from memory, and car was predictable for the full hour of driving... YMMV I guess.
I should keep a little notebook and write down the pressure, outside temps and track I guess, I forget what I did, I am old

I think at the end of the day, looking at your tires, there's honestly a combination of things you can do:
- run street tires and take cooldown laps, and don't drive hard enough to chunk them because they won't hold up + add camber
- run 200s, DEFINITELY add camber, and depending on the tire (such as ECF) you can beat the bejeezus out of them at 34psi hot and they won't overheat or chunk
- get a square setup to save on tire cost regardless of the tire you pick

Given this track, I am not convinced there is a way you can continue driving hard for a full hour on street tires, even on Dinan plates, at either a PSI that prevents chunking or a PSI where the car isn't slippery.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

But camber change = toe change from what I experienced, so how do you correct your toe on the track ; or you do it once , set and forget ?

I set my front toe to 0 at my desired track camber (-3.5), so any changes when switching between -3 and -3.5 aren’t really noticeable. If I switch back to -3 for street driving, it doesn’t affect me much—it just depends on my upcoming events.

If I have about three track days spread out over three weeks, I’ll just leave it at -3.5. But if I have a 3-4 month gap with no events, I’ll either bring it back to -3 or get an alignment since the car is my daily.

It’s not going to wear out your tires in a way that becomes an issue, if you know what I mean.

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

I just want to add that on this car, these tires and my driving style; anything over 40PSI pressure on rear creates greasy rear, and starts sliding early. Same on front... so I have to keep it just below 40 to keep it consistent. I was running 38- 39 hot when I got out from memory, and car was predictable for the full hour of driving... YMMV I guess.
I should keep a little notebook and write down the pressure, outside temps and track I guess, I forget what I did, I am old

Yeah, it’s definitely track-dependent, especially with PS4S if you’re using those. The general consensus is to keep the pressures relatively high—end-of-session pressures should be in the 40-42 PSI range.

However, I don’t think tire pressure is the main factor making the car feel unpredictable.

[TheMechanic]

One final question about tires, I see the load rating on stock tires being a 93, and plenty of tires out there with an 89. AFAIK, there is plenty of load reserve left for an 89 tire - 1279LBS - to be used on M3 E92. Would this affect at all handling at extreme temps, on track? Lower load ratings means softer sidewalls, right ? A difference of 154lbs per tire as load index.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

One final question about tires, I see the load rating on stock tires being a 93, and plenty of tires out there with an 89. AFAIK, there is plenty of load reserve left for an 89 tire - 1279LBS - to be used on M3 E92. Would this affect at all handling at extreme temps, on track? Lower load ratings means softer sidewalls, right ? A difference of 154lbs per tire as load index.

The PS4S isn’t a particularly sticky tire, which might make the car feel unpredictable as you stated.

Load rating refers to how much weight a tire can carry. A higher rating means the tire is stronger and better at handling heat, which is crucial for track use. Hard braking and cornering put a lot of stress on the tires due to weight transfer, so having a tire that can handle that heat is important.

In general, higher load and speed ratings mean a more durable tire. But with track tires, it’s like UTQG ratings—the numbers don’t mean anything at all from my understanding.

an 89 load index (1279 lbs per tire) vs. a 93 load index (1433 lbs) means the sidewalls will be softer. The 154 lb difference per tire might not seem like much, but lower load ratings often allow more flex, making the car feel less stable at the limit.

If you're running aggressive camber and higher tire pressures, that can help compensate for the softer sidewalls.

[TheMechanic]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

The PS4S isn’t a particularly sticky tire, which might make the car feel unpredictable as you stated.

Load rating refers to how much weight a tire can carry. A higher rating means the tire is stronger and better at handling heat, which is crucial for track use. Hard braking and cornering put a lot of stress on the tires due to weight transfer, so having a tire that can handle that heat is important.

In general, higher load and speed ratings mean a more durable tire. But with track tires, it’s like UTQG ratings—the numbers don’t mean anything at all from my understanding.

an 89 load index (1279 lbs per tire) vs. a 93 load index (1433 lbs) means the sidewalls will be softer. The 154 lb difference per tire might not seem like much, but lower load ratings often allow more flex, making the car feel less stable at the limit.

If you're running aggressive camber and higher tire pressures, that can help compensate for the softer sidewalls.

Thanks I thought so, I bought 93Y just to make sure.

[dogbone]

I have opinions on this topic. Heck, I have opinions on lots of topics!

I've been tracking this platform for 13 years. Regarding this topic, here's what I concluded:

-Just get Vorshlag camber plates, run max camber at the track and run minimum camber on the streets. Get your alignment done with max camber. Minimum camber on the streets will have a negligible toe change that's not worth worrying about.

-This platform leans over and destroys the outer edge of the front tires. You should use every bit of camber you can get out of your camber plates to save those tire edges on track. It won't negatively affect your braking. Max camber is somewhere around -3.6º to -3.9º depending on the measurement. Runs great. To this day, even as a totally track dedicated car, I run max camber.

-On the street, minimum camber will save your street tires if you have more than one set of wheels.

-You don't need to be marking plates---just do max at the track, min on the street.

-When my car was dual-duty street/track, I used to bring two floor jacks to the track so I could drive up to the track on my street tires with minimum camber, and then jack both sides of the car up at the same time with the two jacks, and then slam both plates to max camber. I'd put my track wheels on and track all day. Then at the end of the day, I'd jack the car back up and go back to minimum camber, put my street wheels back on and drive home on minimum camber street tires. Worked great. My street tires lasted a long time and the edges of my track tires were saved.

-A friend of mine had been running max camber successfully for quite awhile. But then one day, he got an alignment done at a fancy alignment shop. They claimed up and down he was using too much camber. So, he went with their recommendation and did less camber. He went to the track, and immediately he chewed up the edges of his tires. He's been on max camber ever since.

Driving on a race track usually comes with a lot of compromises. This is not a bad one.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by dogbone

-This platform leans over and destroys the outer edge of the front tires. You should use every bit of camber you can get out of your camber plates to save those tire edges on track. It won't negatively affect your braking. Max camber is somewhere around -3.6º to -3.9º depending on the measurement. Runs great. To this day, even as a totally track dedicated car, I run max camber.

the leaning over and stuff I'm literally now realizing at the end of last year, but i always thought too much camber can affect braking ( i guess it's platform dependent?) then again FWD cars use a ton of front camber also... so maybe i was miss understanding the concept of too much front camber can negatively impact the car.

but I 100% trust Gabe's input on this

[TheMechanic]

I also found that my alignment was skewed by the last shop I did it, I found 5mm of toe in on the front... doh. I should have checked before the track day. 5mm is about 0.5 degrees, that is too much toe in. Factory spec I think it is 0degrees 10' +- 8'

I will install the camber plates, and then re-do it to get as close to 0mm as possible.

I am right here no?

Thanks all.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

I also found that my alignment was skewed by the last shop I did it, I found 5mm of toe in on the front... doh. I should have checked before the track day. 5mm is about 0.5 degrees, that is too much toe in. Factory spec I think it is 0degrees 10' +- 8'

I will install the camber plates, and then re-do it to get as close to 0mm as possible.

I am right here no?

Thanks all.

Too much toe in will fight you on turn in. Too much toe out may feel unstable at high speeds and will tend more to oversteer. On our platform, I think just a small amount of toe on either side of zero is a good way to go based on driver preference. These days, I have 1/32” toe out on each side (total 1/16”) in the front. Feels good to me and my driving style. Zero toe is fine too.

[bipp]

I shared this on the F87 boards because someone was curious about Nankang CRS v2 longevity but figured this might be useful to you too as a reference.

https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=503
-3 camber, 0 toe, 3k miles street driving, 6 track days. 1 day where I was running far too high pressures because I didn't know they liked lower pressures, 1 day where it was cold and I was out there on super low pressures for two laps before they got some heat into them.

I don't think load rating for the common track or performance tires should be a consideration. Especially for PS4S where different mfr specs (star spec vs N0 vs MO or whatever the hell) have different load ratings.

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

the leaning over and stuff I'm literally now realizing at the end of last year, but i always thought too much camber can affect braking ( i guess it's platform dependent?) then again FWD cars use a ton of front camber also... so maybe i was miss understanding the concept of too much front camber can negatively impact the car.

but I 100% trust Gabe's input on this

might be worth exploring how the actual contact patch changes without compression on either side of the car as camber increases (i.e. car braking in a straight line). could be possible that the change in contact patch is less significant under straight line braking than under cornering, such that the loss of straight line braking traction is marginal compared to the financial loss of chewing tire edges lol

[TheMechanic]

Originally Posted by 1FastSicilian

. I run with euro mdm at thompson..

I just realized what you said... that you have euro mdm coded. How do I get this; I can install bimmer tools and NCS EXPERT, had it on my laptop; do I need additional hardware ?

[bipp]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

I just realized what you said... that you have euro mdm coded. How do I get this; I can install bimmer tools and NCS EXPERT, had it on my laptop; do I need additional hardware ?

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956396

try this as well while you're coding. I've been on wert_02 and can definitely attest that it'll let you get sideways before coming in and saving you - or nearly letting you spin. sometimes it still definitely cuts in, but it's a step past US MDM / traction for sure.

[TheMechanic]

Originally Posted by bipp

https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=956396

try this as well while you're coding. I've been on wert_02 and can definitely attest that it'll let you get sideways before coming in and saving you - or nearly letting you spin. sometimes it still definitely cuts in, but it's a step past US MDM / traction for sure.

Your car is automatic, no? I am 6 sp manual, so I have to use wert_06?

[bipp]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

Your car is automatic, no? I am 6 sp manual, so I have to use wert_06?

wert_00: 2.5
wert_01: 4.09375
wert_02: 2.09375
wert_03: 3.296875
wert_04: 3.09375
wert_05: 4.484375
wert_06: 2.09375
wert_07: 2.09375

the actual value for 02 and 06 are the same, so i suppose either works

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by TheMechanic

I just want to add that on this car, these tires and my driving style; anything over 40PSI pressure on rear creates greasy rear, and starts sliding early. Same on front... so I have to keep it just below 40 to keep it consistent. I was running 38- 39 hot when I got out from memory, and car was predictable for the full hour of driving... YMMV I guess. I should keep a little notebook and write down the pressure, outside temps and track I guess, I forget what I did, I am old

Here's a bit more information and recommendations for you, bipp and omgzirra_exe when using Michelin Pilot Sport street tires on track.
.

.

[TheMechanic]

Thank you!

Which means that I was on target... kept them under 40 coming out of the track, hot. I did notice loss of traction and tail happy over 40 on the rear, at least on my supersports.

[BigTee]

Originally Posted by omgzirra_exe

Having eccentric lockouts for the rear camber helps a lot with tire wear since camber changes dynamically without them.

This has me confused. Unless your eccentric bolts are slipping, how is camber changing dynamically?

If you're saying the alignment can change if your eccentric slides out of place, then that makes sense. That is a failed eccentric that should be replaced immediately.

FWIW, eccentric's don't usually slide out of place unless they are worn. They should be inspected and replaced as often as needed. My alignment guy raised concerns at the last alignment so I will be replacing mine soon.

[omgzirra_exe]

Originally Posted by BigTee

This has me confused. Unless your eccentric bolts are slipping, how is camber changing dynamically?

If you're saying the alignment can change if your eccentric slides out of place, then that makes sense. That is a failed eccentric that should be replaced immediately.

FWIW, eccentric's don't usually slide out of place unless they are worn. They should be inspected and replaced as often as needed. My alignment guy raised concerns at the last alignment so I will be replacing mine soon.

They can still slip regardless of whether they're new or old. It's not something that happens every session, but it does happen, especially with repeated track use and higher cornering loads.

Personally, I consider a lockout kit needed if you're tracking the car regularly.

Replacing the eccentric bolts annually isn't a bad idea either, since they're inexpensive, and making sure you torque them higher than OEM spec so they don't slip.

Plus they help keep your rear camber and toe in check.

[Redd]

If you track even semi regularly, camber shims and a lockout kit are a great investment. Set them once and they will never move again.