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02-12-2024, 02:21 PM | #67 | |
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Re MTF, err no, do a simple little exercise, Google rod bearing failure for Honda S2000s (which their engines rev to 8.2k or 9k RPM! Depending on which version) and you'll find precious few hits, most of which will have other causes, e.g oil pump failure. Btw that engine has more hp/ltr than the S65. I understand you'll find similarly low hits for the Audi R8 too, but I haven't tried that myself. Now try that search for the S65, you'll get much more hits! There's nothing mythical about the rod bearing problem, there's clear evidence of that now in the rod bearing condition thread where several hundred sets of pulled rod bearing photos have been posted, with roughly 1/2 of them showing severe wear and nearly all of the other 1/2 showing moderate to significant wear, and only about 2% of them showing almost no wear (as they ought to be!). You can, and we certainly still do argue as to what is the cause/causes, but there's no question now that there is a problem with them, especially the earlier lead/copper ones, but the later ones aren't immune either. I do agree though about the silly statements about it lacking torque, some people just don't seem to understand it, that is. A. It's a 4 ltr engine, not a 5,6 or 7 ltr as many US V8s are. B. It's a high power NA engine which means it needs to rev high for that high power, which means it's torque spread will be further up the rev range. I think the S65 is a fantastic engine, just that it has a couple of flaws, the rod bearings and TAs. But it's got brilliant throttle response, fantastic induction sound, awesome sounding exhaust and beautiful linear screaming power delivery! I would venture to guess it’s because the majority of the wear and tear on the engine comes from cold startup / first start of the day. 10w60 I bet remains on the parts longer after shut down, hence leaving more lubrication on parts leading to lower cold start wear. I think it’s also why the higher mileage cars seem to have LESS problems. Err, I'm confused by your statement as you seem to be contradicting yourself, maybe you typo'd? Your first line states that you think that most wear comes on cold start up (your right, it does, and it does for all engines btw). And your 2nd line says pretty much the opposite. Anyway, no the thin covering left after engine shut down doesn't do much for cold starting. What counts is having the full flow of oil through the bearings etc. Engine manufacturers (bar BMW for 2 of the M3s) have moved away from 10w/xx oils over the past 20-30 years, they have moved over to thinner 5w/xx then 0w/xx oils, this is (at least) for 2 main reasons, yes one is for better economy, but the other major factor is that thinner oil will circulate much more quickly though the engine, especially on cold starts, thus protecting the engine sooner. Higher mileage S65s don't have less problems, excessive bearing wear (or the rarer engine failure) happens at all mileages. But if you meant engines more generally, yes engines which do more highway driving (hence less cold starts/miles covered) they do have less problems for some types of wear for comparable miles.
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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02-12-2024, 02:31 PM | #68 |
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IIUC the point of specifying 10W60 for the S65 was for the higher film strength at full operating temperature compared to lower weight oils.
Sure the compromise was that the engine required a more gentle warm up than a lighter weight oil such as a 5W30. While manufacturers are indeed now designing cars to use lower weight oils for economy and lower emissions...it doesn't automatically mean that using a light weight oil for the S65 is a good idea. Especially if you live in a warm climate. |
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02-12-2024, 02:40 PM | #69 | |
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I think a large part of the problem is still the clearance because of the thick oil used (which hardly any other engine does. I'm still not clear as to how the switch from 5w30 to 10w60 affected the S54), especially at the tighter end of the tolerance range. And it's high revs (which only the S54 comes close to in BMW circles). I do wonder if 5w50 oil would've been a better compromise for them, and halving the service interval to 7.5k/1yr instead of 15k/2yrs. That and perhaps a little contribution from mild detonation as per Paul Gros's suggestion, and for some engines, cold abuse (but it can't account for all of them!). And as far as the earlier bearings go, perhaps like you said, the earlier bearings have a greater tolerance range?? (bourn out by BE's measurements of some shells).
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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02-12-2024, 07:07 PM | #70 |
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Just to close the loop. Ambient temp 33F. Car sat for 12 hours from last drive in a mainly enclosed parking garage
Updated pics for when she's warmed up. I noticed the car won't check oil level until it's fully warmed up to about 88 C |
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02-13-2024, 09:23 PM | #71 |
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MY2011 manufactured after May 2010.
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02-13-2024, 11:13 PM | #72 |
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If I ever get to open up the MBs of an 08-09 s65, I will definitely picture document and see what bearings are in it.
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02-14-2024, 12:37 PM | #73 |
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Yea that would be very interesting, usually about the only time we see mains is after an engine's seized!
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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02-15-2024, 03:36 PM | #75 | |
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02-17-2024, 08:59 PM | #76 |
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Used ones?
Interestingly, since I last posted here, I happened to see a Youtube video by M539 pulling a 103k miles S65 apart showing the main bearings! And he also talks about an interesting theory as to why the No1 is so worn (the others much less so) and why that one is usually the one to go (when they do)(re twin timing chains).
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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02-18-2024, 12:25 AM | #77 | |
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02-18-2024, 01:12 AM | #78 |
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Not to forget valve springs and fuel injectors. Plenty of ways to trash an engine.
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02-19-2024, 09:03 AM | #79 | |
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I'll take a look when I get a few minutes |
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02-19-2024, 03:28 PM | #80 | |
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Ah ok, I'm after pictures of well used bearings really.
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Although some people think injector failures are becoming more common, I'm on the fence on that one.
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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02-19-2024, 03:52 PM | #81 |
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Fuel injectors are talked about a lot on the S85 side of things. I believe we run the same injectors or same materials that were not specifically designed for use with high ethanol content fuels. We’ve seen at least 3 people in the last couple years report bore wash or hydrolock. There may be more unreported instances of cylinder wall damage due to injectors or hydrolock that get masked by rod bearing spins. It’s hard to say unless everyone takes the time to run a borescope into their engines.
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02-20-2024, 01:29 AM | #82 | |
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And by high ethanol fuel are you referring to E85? Here in the UK the highest we have is E10.
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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02-20-2024, 01:35 AM | #83 |
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On this forum. At least 3 in the two years I’ve been part of it. One in Brazil and two in the us. Parse for bore scoring and loss of compression. Any ethanol. I do not believe our fuel systems were meant to be used with ethanol mixed fuel. I hope I’m wrong but the time frame in which these engines were created predates wide spread adoption of ethanol blends.
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02-20-2024, 01:07 PM | #84 |
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I don't believe E5 or E10 is a problem, and IIRC BMW says that E10 is ok with our cars (M3s).
Re the 3 cases you've seen, were they S85s or S65s?
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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02-20-2024, 01:33 PM | #85 |
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S65. One of the members is pretty active, the guy from Brazil. jvictormp
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02-21-2024, 03:32 PM | #86 |
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Ah yea, I know that one, and added it to the blown engine list (in my sig).
Can you remember the other 2? (are they already in my list?).
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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03-04-2024, 02:32 PM | #87 |
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The original link is now dead, so it's not possible to see how it was defined. Can you site a document source to confirm that it is "con rod play" and post a link so that it can be verified? And by con rod play, do you mean side clearance? The numbers above are definitely not side clearance, because side clearance numbers are approximately 10x larger than bearing/journal clearance numbers. That's why it's important to see a document source, not word-of-mouth.
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03-13-2024, 03:31 PM | #88 |
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I've seen the same specs as you posted in the op on BMW's AIR, their is no clarification of what that con rod play refers to (I could post a screenshot of that if you want, but their is no more info, so not much help).
But going by Paul G's data, whatever BMW's conrod play refers to, it is not rod bearing clearance. Other people believe it to be something else based on similar data layouts for other BMW engines, I'm not sure what though (I've PM'd one of the to ask).
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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