HPDE experiments, results and observations

[rhyary]

This is not happening: $1858.00

[rhyary]

This is happening:

265/35/19 RE-71R x 2 = $364
275/35/19 S007 x 2 = $264

Total = $628

[dparm]

Originally Posted by rhyary

2013 Ferrari F12 Berlinetta

Ah thanks, the S007A must be the Aston version. Agree I would not pay $1800 for those, you could get Hoosiers with money left over.

[///Mobbin]

rhyary recently came across your thread and value approach to track tires. So interesting. I have been taking the same approach to brake pads and trying different compounds front and rear for years to optimize value, use up old pads, and also to try and find a setup that works well for me for whatever tires I am using at the time. For whatever reason it never occurred to me to do the same for tires. Props to taking a different approach than most and making it work. The cost savings makes sense to me and you have a great data set for all these different tires/sizes now.

Thanks also for recently talking through sizing/fitments with me, good info.

[Bartledoo]

Have you considered the extremecontact Force tire yet? Could last you many track days and they have 19” sizing. Also supposed to be as fast/faster as SC2 and much better in the wet. I’ve only run them on my 986 but after a couple track days they had almost no wear, and I was smashing them pretty hard (for a 986). Never run any othe track tires on the 986 so I don’t have a direct pace comparison though.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

rhyary

Thanks also for recently talking through sizing/fitments with me, good info.

Was my pleasure.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Ab28

That's awesome man....I'm hoping to do about 15-20 this year if time allows. I'm in NJ. Feel free to PM me when and where you're going and I'll introduce myself if we are at the same event.

My focus is LRP, PMP, NYST and WGI.
I am sure we are going to run into each other.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Have you considered the extremecontact Force tire yet? Could last you many track days and they have 19" sizing. Also supposed to be as fast/faster as SC2 and much better in the wet. I've only run them on my 986 but after a couple track days they had almost no wear, and I was smashing them pretty hard (for a 986). Never run any othe track tires on the 986 so I don't have a direct pace comparison though.

I have but too expensive to give it a try.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I have but too expensive to give it a try.

Boo! Do it man. Call track-day and work a deal. They're much more cost effective than TR, Discount, etc.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by DRLane

Boo! Do it man. Call track-day and work a deal. They're much more cost effective than TR, Discount, etc.

I have texted back and forth with John, this year 10% as not deep enough to make a move. Last year I bought from him 8 x RR for the rear.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I have texted back and forth with John, this year 10% as not deep enough to make a move. Last year I bought from him 8 x RR for the rear.

It's one time experiment! Think if they last twice as long as alternative set you come out even.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I have but too expensive to give it a try.

It’s actually soooo much cheaper than what you are doing if they last longer than RS4, as advertised. Then you would also have excellent tires as well, and save time and money constantly mounting sets of tires.

Also, I purchased from Phil’s Tire Service.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

It's actually soooo much cheaper than what you are doing if they last longer than RS4, as advertised. Then you would also have excellent tires as well, and save time and money constantly mounting sets of tires.

Also, I purchased from Phil's Tire Service.

Longevity is track specific in my experience.
Perhaps my tire consumption looks excessive because I publish a lot of NYST information.

If you think that the Force will be doing 2 trackdays at NYST (14 x20min) at sub 1:40 and the fronts will survive, then I encourage you to come and show me. And we get to meet.
Win-Win

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Longevity is track specific in my experience.
Perhaps my tire consumption looks excessive because I publish a lot of NYST information.

If you think that the Force will be doing 2 trackdays at NYST (14 x20min) at sub 1:40 and the fronts will survive, then I encourage you to come and show me. And we get to meet.
Win-Win

Well regardless of this magical track where all tires last exactly the same amount of time, you still listed three other tracks. Anyways, just trying to give you an option to save money while using good tires.

I definitely understand abrasive tracks. The Ridge was extremely abrasive before the repave. For example an NT01 would last me under 3 days there. Life doubled after the repave.

I think your setup or driving style needs work if your fronts are getting blasted that much faster than the rears. On my car, rears go marginally faster.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Longevity is track specific in my experience.
Perhaps my tire consumption looks excessive because I publish a lot of NYST information.

If you think that the Force will be doing 2 trackdays at NYST (14 x20min) at sub 1:40 and the fronts will survive, then I encourage you to come and show me. And we get to meet.
Win-Win

I have no experience at NYST (maybe next summer, we'll see). I'm also not challenging you or disparaging your experiments just suggesting it might worth trying it out. Given that's what you do, experiment…

Here's my assumptions:

Looking online found street legal NB1 Miata run 1:39 on RS4 endurance tires. I'll post reference video.

I'd assume the supercharged, aero, track prep e92 wouldn't have trouble running at that pace because the power advantage out of the corners especially onto the straights (coming off T6 and T18) would mean you can ask less of corner entry? And thereby save tire wear?

Check my math but quick and dirty: 14x 20 sessions is ~4.6 hours or ~370 miles at 100 sec/lap pace.

The continental is intended to run 7-10 hours at race pace. I would assume for our cars 1:40 is very attainable endurance race pace again based on the Miata times. I would be willing to bet that a set (complete set no mixing) would run the same 4.6 hours you need to warrant a 2x investment (not including tire mounting charges). Maybe we can all throw in $10 bucks for the "Rami group experiment fund" 😀

265/295 19s Continental Force from Track day
$325x 2, $369x 2 = $1388, 10% discount $1294, free shipping. Call it $100 mounting = $1394

Vs your tires combo (RE71, S007)
$628 plus $100 mounting = $728
Two sets = $1456.

Could be a $62 savings and produce faster, more consistent results?

Maybe I'm missing something? But isn't it worth the investment for the sake of continuing your experiments?

Reference: https://occamsracers.com/2021/09/19/...s-at-nyst/amp/

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Longevity is track specific in my experience.
Perhaps my tire consumption looks excessive because I publish a lot of NYST information.

If you think that the Force will be doing 2 trackdays at NYST (14 x20min) at sub 1:40 and the fronts will survive, then I encourage you to come and show me. And we get to meet.
Win-Win

Of course tire wear is track dependent. So is brake wear and fuel consumption.. Just because tire wear is track dependent, doesn't mean all tires can only last X amount of time at Y track. A more durable tire will still last longer than a fast wearing one, even at the track that's hard on tires.

As many have said, there's a good chance tires like the RS4 and new Conti are the same price/lap as some of the alternatives you've been running. They might cost twice as much per set, but there's a good chance they'd last twice as long. For the small investment to test the theory (for someone that loves testing theories..), why not try? You'll be on a superior tire grip wise to what you run 75% of the time, and chances are they'll last better as well and end up working out to the same price in the long run - maybe even cheaper??

[rhyary]

To clarify:

On RT660 265/35/19 I did 1:36 at NYST.
The difference between 1:39-1:40 to 1:36 is huge.

I am not eating tires at 1:40, I am eating tires at 1:36-1:37.

At the other three tracks PMP, LRP and WGI tires last a long time. I don't have good stats on only one track because of NYST proximity I typically have at least one NYST day before or after the other tracks.

I can say that I did 5 days at WGI basically on one set of tires. I tried both fronts A050A 255/35/19 and RT660 265/35/19 with minimal wear on either . Pace started on 2:20-2:25 and went down to the teens.

I understand track longevity and we can always say it is me, or my car, or my setup. But remember, I am friendly at track days and I see a lot of cars and lots of tires during track days. So I can see what happens to other cars.

I think we will have to disagree on one fundamental issue. I did 1:36 at NYST using 295/30/19 RR on the rear and 265/35/19 RT660 on the front. I don't believe the RT660 wear had significant difference because my rear was not RT660.

The RT660 was wearing beautifully until I corded it.

I will be running less NYST days this year.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by tsk94

A more durable tire will still last longer than a fast wearing one, even at the track that's hard on tires.

??

last longer has to be qualified by full track days.

If RT660 last until 2pm session, and the Force last until the 4pm session it is practically the same thing. Either way I have to mount a new tires for the next day.

I don't believe the Force will last 4 full days on 1:36 pace and the RE-71R will last two days.

[rhyary]

Just to bring the discussion back to economics.

Last year I tried 3 fronts at full price:
RT660 265/35/19
RT660 275/30/19
O52A 255/35/19.

So I am not apposed for trying a 265/35/19 Force on the front as my full price indulgent.

But have to burn thru a lot of RE-71R inventory as well as 285/30/19 inventory before I get to the Force.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

last longer has to be qualified by full track days.

If RT660 last until 2pm session, and the Force last until the 4pm session it is practically the same thing. Either way I have to mount a new tires for the next day.

I don't believe the Force will last 4 full days on 1:36 pace and the RE-71R will last two days.

Not really? If you get 20-30 extra laps, that's still longer lasting... In that context that's like 25% more life - that's not insignificant.

Maybe it won't last twice as long, but it will last longer. Regardless, you're doing 30 track days a year. Spending an extra $500-800 on a set of tires to do a legitimately worthwhile test isn't even a drop in the bucket at that point for the yearly budget. If you're right, then you know, and you have worthwhile information to share with others on here. In the case we're right, then you've found a superior tire (performance wise), to what you often run, and it doesn't end up costing you anymore in the long run. As I said, for the small investment, it makes complete sense to me to at least try it.

If you got all these people telling you to try it, there's generally a good reason why. This whole track driving thing is pretty straightforward overall. So if all these people are telling you something similar, then there's probably merit to what they are saying.

[rhyary]

Do we worry about heat cycles?
The Force may last 4 hours race?
But is it the same as 14 x 20min over two track days?

14 heat cycles including driving to and from the track?

Not the same, but perhaps telling. My RR typically starts to move around on the 4th day even though I can still see the dimples and tire is not corded.

So it looks like after 25 heat cycles the rear is no longer as planted but plenty rubber left.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Do we worry about heat cycles?
The Force may last 4 hours race?
But is it the same as 14 x 20min over two track days?

14 heat cycles including driving to and from the track?

Not the same, but perhaps telling. My RR typically starts to move around on the 4th day even though I can still see the dimples and tire is not corded.

So it looks like after 25 heat cycles the rear is no longer as planted but plenty rubber left.

It's 7-10 race not 4 hours and that's definitely more impacting than 14x 20 min cycles. I don't think the Force is impacted by heat cycles, if it is 14 is a low count. The RR is absolutely impacted by HC and age and you mentioned it lasted 25? I would think the Force can manage 14…

I do not believe tires come to temp driving to / from the track unless you're driving very aggressively. But check, pull over and poke them with pyrometer.

I'm forever confused why the willingness to experiment is only one sided. You'll buy used eBay tires and drive 140mph with trees and obstacles surrounding you, but wont try a proper set or endurance tires even for the sake of continued experimentation?