Cracked Vanos Hub Cover

[drwankel]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

If you break loose the central bolt then you'll need to "retime" the engine. There is chain pre-load held that is lost when you crack loose that bolt. A tiny amount is all it takes to alter timing. If you've already got the tools on hand and everything locked in place, proceeding with BMW's full process for timing cams is not much more labor. I find the S65 timing process one of the easiest of all BMW chain driven engines.

Actually- that makes sense. I didn't consider the timing chain tension. The shop I'm using had a head ripped off a S65 last time I was there, so it dawned on me that of course this shop has the timing tools.

I remember having to do this years ago in school on a ford 4.0 SOHC v6. We were baffled that the cam gears weren't keyed into the cam shaft like every other American or Japanese engine of the day. We were then told the 4.0 SOHC was a ford of europe designed engine, designed in germany specifically.

The teacher busted out the cam timing tools, and said the line I'll never forget "those germans love their tools".

[deansbimmer]

Primary consideration: The chain is preloaded. Restoring that preload is a component of "re-timing" the cams. Once an inlet central bolt is loosened the preload is lost and will result in the cams being off a few degrees after you rotate the engine a few times.

In further detail: Each adjuster has two main components. The outer gear/sprocket, and the inner rotor. At zero oil pressure the rotors are held in a "locked" position which is pre-loaded by the outer anti-rattle coil spring, but that is not a zero tolerance condition when under the forces required to torque the central bolt or check/adjust timing. Any tolerances in these components will result in variations to the static timing regardless of how careful you are with pinning cams, cranks, and loosening bolts. This is also affected by the chain load discussed above. For these reasons BMW has instructed us in the only way correct timing can be achieved. Any deviation or attempt to skirt the process won't result in correct static timing.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Keen pickup on that. No, if you have both cams locked and don't loosen the inlet central bolt, you could theoretically remove and reinstall the exhaust central bolt without issue. As with timing, this could only be done one bank at a time. Still, you should always check timing afterwards. If you're doing all four adjusters/covers this is a moot point in practice as timing will still be affected if the inlet adjuster bolts are cracked loose.

Thanks Dean, starting to appreciate why the shops around here have said no thanks. Will focus on a cap only solution to get this sorted.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Thanks Dean, starting to appreciate why the shops around here have said no thanks. Will focus on a cap only solution to get this sorted.

Understanding the system's intricacies may be complex but I'll say it again- the timing set and check process is very simple. The S65 has just about the most simple process of any modern BMW engine. I can't believe shops are turning it down unless they don't have the tools and aren't familiar with the platform. It's nothing to fear.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Understanding the system's intricacies may be complex but I'll say it again- the timing set and check process is very simple. The S65 has just about the most simple process of any modern BMW engine. I can't believe shops are turning it down unless they don't have the tools and aren't familiar with the platform. It's nothing to fear.

Like I've said before Dean, if one only had you and your shop around here...

[Ant Man]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Understanding the system's intricacies may be complex but I'll say it again- the timing set and check process is very simple. The S65 has just about the most simple process of any modern BMW engine. I can't believe shops are turning it down unless they don't have the tools and aren't familiar with the platform. It's nothing to fear.

You are a competent mechanic. There are many garages that advertise as being M Power specialists. When you mention any work which involves the vanos, none of them want it. They just want to do oil changes or replace brake pads.............but they are M Power specialists.

[drwankel]

deansbimmer Can you clarify all the parts that should be replaced when installing yours or the carbahn plates? So far, we know the obvious, valve cover gaskets, cam cover gaskets, the vanos bolts themselves.

There's a facebook thread now discussing the same thing, and someone mentioned that the orings behind the vanos units should be replaced as well.

If the vanos units have to come off to change those o rings, I'd imagine tensioners and whatnot have to be loosened/removed, which suggests there are other o rings or crush washers that might need to be considered as well.

[Ajolives]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Understanding the system's intricacies may be complex but I'll say it again- the timing set and check process is very simple. The S65 has just about the most simple process of any modern BMW engine. I can't believe shops are turning it down unless they don't have the tools and aren't familiar with the platform. It's nothing to fear.

It did look pretty straightforward per the TIS.

I do have a question about the chain tension. My understanding was the exhaust gear supplied sufficient tension to the chain with the screw and gear alignment tool. I was always going to check timing regardless because that's what the TIS says, but I was assuming I would just have to check and not adjust because the cams were locked and the tension was saved with the exhaust gear screw. Glad to have my expectations adjusted, saved me a pissy fit, lol.

[e92zero]

deansbimmer Thanks for all the info and knowledge shared. Are you still planning to make a production run for your version?

[Audioslave686]

Originally Posted by Ajolives

It did look pretty straightforward per the TIS.

I do have a question about the chain tension. My understanding was the exhaust gear supplied sufficient tension to the chain with the screw and gear alignment tool. I was always going to check timing regardless because that's what the TIS says, but I was assuming I would just have to check and not adjust because the cams were locked and the tension was saved with the exhaust gear screw. Glad to have my expectations adjusted, saved me a pissy fit, lol.

I found two YouTube videos that describe the process pretty good.
Unfortunately, the videos are in German, but the process is pretty visual.

[Ajolives]

Time to reinstall duolingo, lol. I did watch a portion of those when Helmsman posted them sometime ago; can't remember when.

I bought the slonik solution so it's a bit of a moot point now, but still curious. Another question I have is if the chain/cams/gears are that sensitive it would make sense to do a VANOS refresh while I'm at it. I would imagine 155k miles puts a bit of slack into things….

[drwankel]

Originally Posted by drwankel

deansbimmer Can you clarify all the parts that should be replaced when installing yours or the carbahn plates? So far, we know the obvious, valve cover gaskets, cam cover gaskets, the vanos bolts themselves.

There's a facebook thread now discussing the same thing, and someone mentioned that the orings behind the vanos units should be replaced as well.

If the vanos units have to come off to change those o rings, I'd imagine tensioners and whatnot have to be loosened/removed, which suggests there are other o rings or crush washers that might need to be considered as well.

Bumping my own post in hopes that someone has the answer here. Need to get parts on order if there are additional things. I dont have access to TIS to confirm the timing procedure.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by drwankel

Bumping my own post in hopes that someone has the answer here. Need to get parts on order if there are additional things. I dont have access to TIS to confirm the timing procedure.

Yes, if the adjusters are disturbed you should replace their sealing o-ring, part number 11367839292, QTY 4. You'll also need new crush washers for the chain tensioners, 11317507432, QTY 2. Of course, new vanos cover gaskets and associated valve cover sealing parts.

Most will need to assess their valve covers for reuse, inspecting the magnesium cover's sealing grooves for the typical degradation from corrosion and pitting. Most will be deteriorated and installing new gaskets alone would not result in a leak free assembly. At a minimum, supplemental sealing with additional sealants would be required but it would also be a great time to install new or refinished valve covers.

We are in the process of having a batch of our covers produced. I don't have pricing or timeline available yet.

[T!m3]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Yes, if the adjusters are disturbed you should replace their sealing o-ring, part number 11367839292, QTY 4. You'll also need new crush washers for the chain tensioners, 11317507432, QTY 2. Of course, new vanos cover gaskets and associated valve cover sealing parts.

Most will need to assess their valve covers for reuse, inspecting the magnesium cover's sealing grooves for the typical degradation from corrosion and pitting. Most will be deteriorated and installing new gaskets alone would not result in a leak free assembly. At a minimum, supplemental sealing with additional sealants would be required but it would also be a great time to install new or refinished valve covers.

We are in the process of having a batch of our covers produced. I don't have pricing or timeline available yet.

I replaced all my vanos units, but didnt replace vanos center bolts with a new ones(didn`t even know they need to be replaced), is it dangerous? Drove like 2k km, everything seems fine,
but still have a little worries about it.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by T!m3

I replaced all my vanos units, but didnt replace vanos center bolts with a new ones(didn`t even know they need to be replaced), is it dangerous? Drove like 2k km, everything seems fine,
but still have a little worries about it.

Those are stretch bolts (torque to yield). They're engineered to stretch to their full clamping force once. A second application of torque would stretch them well beyond their engineered specification. It's not likely to blow up your engine the first time you start it, but I would certainly replace them to avoid the risk of failure which could result in needing an entire new engine.

[T!m3]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Those are stretch bolts (torque to yield). They're engineered to stretch to their full clamping force once. A second application of torque would stretch them well beyond their engineered specification. It's not likely to blow up your engine the first time you start it, but I would certainly replace them to avoid the risk of failure which could result in needing an entire new engine.

So do i need to replace all valve cover bolts again(Im also using sealants to prevent from leaking)? I drove like 2k km(maybe even less)

[StripclubDJ]

Originally Posted by T!m3

So do i need to replace all valve cover bolts again(Im also using sealants to prevent from leaking)? I drove like 2k km(maybe even less)

No

[Jordan38]

hi i contacted carbahn autoworks i am still waiting for a response.
I'll make some if I don't have an answer.
are the plates steel and not titanium?

[drwankel]

They are steel.

I have a set that I actually will not end up needing along with a set of vanos bolts if someone is interested.

[drwankel]

Bumping this to the top. I have a set of Carbahn covers that I no longer need, that I would be willing to sell for $125 plus shipping. Normal cost is $150.

[l0gg3r]

Got Slon workshops covers,

24.4 grams each, used without removing bolts from vanos.
I think this an amazing solution

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by l0gg3r

Got Slon workshops covers,

24.4 grams each, used without removing bolts from vanos.
I think this an amazing solution

I just compared by hand and felt roughly the same as the OEM plastics - did you by any chance weight?