Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[Assimilator1]

Sorry to hear your bad news , same question as pbonsalb though.

Or possibly injector failure? (although that's very rare).

[TX]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Sorry to hear your bad news , same question as pbonsalb though.

Or possibly injector failure? (although that's very rare).

I don’t think I’ve heard of injector issues for the earlier years, or at least it was less common. Mostly it seemed to be an issue with the batch they used in MY2011 that had known failures. I’ve been sitting on a new set, but have been nervous about installing them and risk a failure on them vs what has been working thus far on the 09. Maybe my logic is screwed. I know new is better right?
Anyway it seems the 140k mile is the mark where the mains are giving out. If so this would be the second car in the last 2 weeks with similar mileage.

[kmberger8]

Originally Posted by TX

I’m sorry to hear the sad news. Do you remember which set of ACLs were used? Were there any post change oil reports?

Sorry, just to clarify, that bearing swap was done just prior to my ownership, and could've been performed by a reputable shop or just the owner himself. Don't know.

And yep, I have some bearings that were ejected through the bottom of the oil pan. They are marked 1580HX (pic attached). To be honest, I don't necessarily find fault with the ACL bearings, but to me more likely what is suspect is the workmanship of the installation, given how new the bearings were, and how nice the wear patterns look for most of the ones ejected...except for one of them I've recovered from the carnage--which looks horrendous, carved deep into the copper substrate. Sounds crazy but it gives me the impression that they might have installed it on an already-damaged crankshaft journal to cover it up and sell the car. But I'm speculating.

Also, yes--my Blackstone oil analysis reports were pretty positive. Last fall I had 8ppm copper, 5ppm lead. Not alarming unless all 8ppm were coming out of one bearing!

[kmberger8]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Any idea whether it was main bearing failure or rod bearing failure?

Yep, without question a case of rod bearing failure, cylinders 1&5 and cylinders 2&6. Mains appear to be intact. In every other regard the engine was perfect.

I appreciate you guys. The people at my independent shop are not the sympathetic type.

[TX]

Originally Posted by kmberger8

Yep, without question a case of rod bearing failure, cylinders 1&5 and cylinders 2&6. Mains appear to be intact. In every other regard the engine was perfect.

I appreciate you guys. The people at my independent shop are not the sympathetic type.

Oil starvation caused by upstream main failure leading to rod bearing failure of adjacent rods and ejection?

[kmberger8]

Originally Posted by TX

Oil starvation caused by upstream main failure leading to rod bearing failure of adjacent rods and ejection?

Interesting thought, I guess it's possible, but as I touched on above, upon visual inspection into the big hole in the bottom of the engine, I could see no sign of damage to main bearings. I will certainly be doing further autopsy in the coming months, but that's as far as I could look for now.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by kmberger8

Yep, without question a case of rod bearing failure, cylinders 1&5 and cylinders 2&6. Mains appear to be intact. In every other regard the engine was perfect.

I appreciate you guys. The people at my independent shop are not the sympathetic type.

It is not really probable for 4 rod bearings to spin at the same time unless the upstream main spins and blocks oil flow.

I would put money on the bet you had main 1 spin which caused the rod bearings to spin too.

Sucks though, hope you can get the limp running again soon.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by TX

I don’t think I’ve heard of injector issues for the earlier years, or at least it was less common. Mostly it seemed to be an issue with the batch they used in MY2011 that had known failures. I’ve been sitting on a new set, but have been nervous about installing them and risk a failure on them vs what has been working thus far on the 09. Maybe my logic is screwed. I know new is better right?
Anyway it seems the 140k mile is the mark where the mains are giving out. If so this would be the second car in the last 2 weeks with similar mileage.

Where do you get the 140k mile mark for mains from mate?
Looking at the categorised list I did of this thread not 1 of the confirmed mains failure shown is over 100k miles.
Their are 4 injector caused engine failures in my list, only 1 is shown as 2011, have you got info that you're holding back on?

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

No oil reports. I can't think of a single time where a customer with a failed engine ever had any oil test history. Coincidence? Probably not... In my experience, most engine failure customers aren't really BMW enthusiasts and had no idea of the S65 lottery until they won it.

Attached is a pic of six S65's on one of our racks waiting tear down. From left to right:

1: 2009 S65B40, 77k miles, 10w60, seized #1 main.

2: S65 4.6, approximately 45k miles on the build, spun #4 bearing, rod broke, hole in the block. 10w60 oil. 2008 block casting date.

3: 2009 S65B40, 63k miles, 10w60, rod knocking, swarf in oil.

4: 2011 S65B40, 44k miles, 10w60, #1/5 spun rods (first journal).

5: 2013 S65B40, 51k miles, 5w50, rod knock- Cyl #6 bearing galled, not spun yet.

6: 2008 S65B40, 120k miles, supercharged, original bearings, 10w60, spun #2/6 journal.

Picture #2 are more S65's dismantled and waiting further assessment. One (front and center)[case 7] was a sleeved 4.4 block that had rod bearing failure after 16k miles from the build, that block may still be good to rebuild. Lower middle block [case 8] had an injector failure and scored a cylinder. The other two blocks [case 9 & 10] in that pic are main failures and cracked.

...

Thanks again for the info their Coulter, I've belatedly put it in now , any more info on the cases which hadn't been investigated fully at the time?
Any more info on the last 4 cases? e.g year and mileage?
And anymore engines to add?

[kmberger8]

Originally Posted by Scharbag

It is not really probable for 4 rod bearings to spin at the same time unless the upstream main spins and blocks oil flow.

I would put money on the bet you had main 1 spin which caused the rod bearings to spin too.

Sucks though, hope you can get the limp running again soon.

Good idea--I can't say that such a thing has been ruled out as a possibility. So far I have evidence to suggest that the four cylinders did not fail simultaneously, but that one bearing failed and sent parts flying, breaking apart the other cylinders' rods and pistons.

A current-state breakdown by bearing location after first inspection on a lift...
Main 1: intact, unknown condition
Cylinder 5: piston/upper rod ejected, broken rod still attached to crankshaft, rb intact, condition unknown
Cylinder 1: all parts ejected, bearing wear pattern "horrendous", deeply gouged into copper substrate (suspected initial failure)
Main 2: intact, unknown condition
Cylinder 6: all parts ejected, bearing wear pattern excellent, barely worn
Cylinder 2: piston/upper rod ejected, broken rod still attached to crankshaft, rb intact, condition unknown
Main 3 & aft: not visible, no damage to crankcase or pan around aft engine area


Now, your very good idea could still be true as a root cause of this. I won't know until the engine comes out and I can get the remains home. Also, if anyone can play taps I would greatly appreciate it

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by kmberger8

Good idea--I can't say that such a thing has been ruled out as a possibility. So far I have evidence to suggest that the four cylinders did not fail simultaneously, but that one bearing failed and sent parts flying, breaking apart the other cylinders' rods and pistons.

A current-state breakdown by bearing location after first inspection on a lift...
Main 1: intact, unknown condition
Cylinder 5: piston/upper rod ejected, broken rod still attached to crankshaft, rb intact, condition unknown
Cylinder 1: all parts ejected, bearing wear pattern "horrendous", deeply gouged into copper substrate (suspected initial failure)
Main 2: intact, unknown condition
Cylinder 6: all parts ejected, bearing wear pattern excellent, barely worn
Cylinder 2: piston/upper rod ejected, broken rod still attached to crankshaft, rb intact, condition unknown
Main 3 & aft: not visible, no damage to crankcase or pan around aft engine area


Now, your very good idea could still be true as a root cause of this. I won't know until the engine comes out and I can get the remains home. Also, if anyone can play taps I would greatly appreciate it

Since you can see mains #1,#2, look at the steel inserts into the block that hold the main bearings. What color are they? If they're blue, that would be a good sign of a main bearing failure. If they're normal/silver, then much less likely of a main bearing failure.

One other possibility, and this one will certainly cause a reaction among some: the ACL-HX bearings. It is our view and the view of some Indy and NASCAR race engine builders that if you have a pure set of HX shells (meaning, not a mixed set), then you have too much clearance. Too much clearance can be deadly just like too little clearance. I just can't tell you how deadly and I can't tell you if that caused this problem without sending them and all of the other broken parts to one of my experts for analysis. If you can get the shells off of the puked rods, then you can see if they're a pure HX set, or a mixed set of HX and STD shells.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by kmberger8

Sorry, just to clarify, that bearing swap was done just prior to my ownership, and could've been performed by a reputable shop or just the owner himself. Don't know.

And yep, I have some bearings that were ejected through the bottom of the oil pan. They are marked 1580HX (pic attached). To be honest, I don't necessarily find fault with the ACL bearings, but to me more likely what is suspect is the workmanship of the installation, given how new the bearings were, and how nice the wear patterns look for most of the ones ejected...except for one of them I've recovered from the carnage--which looks horrendous, carved deep into the copper substrate. Sounds crazy but it gives me the impression that they might have installed it on an already-damaged crankshaft journal to cover it up and sell the car. But I'm speculating.

Also, yes--my Blackstone oil analysis reports were pretty positive. Last fall I had 8ppm copper, 5ppm lead. Not alarming unless all 8ppm were coming out of one bearing!

Welcome to the club. There is a large amount of people who have great blackstone analysis and wind up with a blown engine. Unfortunately, you won't be the last

[kmberger8]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

Since you can see mains #1,#2, look at the steel inserts into the block that hold the main bearings. What color are they? If they're blue, that would be a good sign of a main bearing failure. If they're normal/silver, then much less likely of a main bearing failure.

One other possibility, and this one will certainly cause a reaction among some: the ACL-HX bearings. It is our view and the view of some Indy and NASCAR race engine builders that if you have a pure set of HX shells (meaning, not a mixed set), then you have too much clearance. Too much clearance can be deadly just like too little clearance. I just can't tell you how deadly and I can't tell you if that caused this problem without sending them and all of the other broken parts to one of my experts for analysis. If you can get the shells off of the puked rods, then you can see if they're a pure HX set, or a mixed set of HX and STD shells.

It never ceases to amaze me the wealth of good guys with keen knowledge and smart ideas on this forum, willing to contribute to one another's plight. Thank you my friend.

From my pictures, albeit with really bad lighting, they appear a dull grey. Definitely not bluish.

If it's any indication, the bearing shells (top & bottom) of both of the fully ejected rods are all stamped "1580HX MY17 STD". It appears that they are all the same--no "H" only ones.

[Assimilator1]

Speculation/question - If the clearances were too big with the HX bearings, presumably the oil pressure could end up being too low? (especially when hot). In which case wouldn't the rod bearings be the 1st to take damage as a result?

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

Welcome to the club. There is a large amount of people who have great blackstone analysis and wind up with a blown engine. Unfortunately, you won't be the last

Not sure about larger numbers myself, but certainly significant. When I found the 1st substantiated case of a engine blown shortly after a good oil report last year, that was enough for me to realise it couldn't be relied upon to track bearing wear.
Thanks for reminding me about kmberger8's mention of the oil report, I'll add his case to my oil report vs bearings thread

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by kmberger8

Sorry, just to clarify, that bearing swap was done just prior to my ownership, and could've been performed by a reputable shop or just the owner himself. Don't know.

And yep, I have some bearings that were ejected through the bottom of the oil pan. They are marked 1580HX (pic attached). To be honest, I don't necessarily find fault with the ACL bearings, but to me more likely what is suspect is the workmanship of the installation, given how new the bearings were, and how nice the wear patterns look for most of the ones ejected...except for one of them I've recovered from the carnage--which looks horrendous, carved deep into the copper substrate. Sounds crazy but it gives me the impression that they might have installed it on an already-damaged crankshaft journal to cover it up and sell the car. But I'm speculating.

Also, yes--my Blackstone oil analysis reports were pretty positive. Last fall I had 8ppm copper, 5ppm lead. Not alarming unless all 8ppm were coming out of one bearing!

What mileage did you do between the report and the engine blowing?

[Propoflurane]

Sub’d

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Speculation/question - If the clearances were too big with the HX bearings, presumably the oil pressure could end up being too low? (especially when hot). In which case wouldn't the rod bearings be the 1st inline to take damage as a result?



Not sure about larger numbers myself, but certainly significant. When I found the 1st substantiated case of a engine blown shortly after a good oil report last year, that was enough for me to realise it couldn't be relied upon to track bearing wear.
Thanks for reminding me about kmberger8's mention of the oil report, I'll add his case to my oil report vs bearings thread

It's been happening at least since the E46 M3 days... that's a long time

[kmberger8]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

What mileage did you do between the report and the engine blowing?

I logged precisely 1,541 miles. Nice work keeping the data on this.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

It's been happening at least since the E46 M3 days... that's a long time

Ah ok, I didn't look beyond the e9x M3, I don't suppose there's a single thread that contains E46 oil reports and bearing condition?? (Almost never that easy! ).

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Ah ok, I didn't look beyond the e9x M3, I don't suppose there's a single thread that contains E46 oil reports and bearing condition?? (Almost never that easy! ).

The m3forum.net died and took all its info with it

[tsk94]

Rod bearings have been a problem on numerous BMW engines, dating back to the E30s. For some reason it's just a much more talked about issue on this platform, even though it's really not any more prevalent. S14, M50/52, S54, S65, N54 and N55's all have rod bearing problems, and I'm sure there are more.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The m3forum.net died and took all its info with it

Damn!