Track forum general chit chat.

[slicer]

Originally Posted by dparm

Okay, would someone care to explain why I should spend an extra $250+ on different sway bar end links when I'm already going to be spending $400-700 on new sway bars? I'm a bit confused on what benefit these offer over an OEM setup. Most aftermarket bars seem to allow use of OEM end links or a design like these.

Talked to a few friends and they said it's overkill for a mostly stock car, and that they tend to be noisy.

https://www.hotchkis.net/product/che...&md=440&sm=485

Adjustable end links can do a few things -

1 - sometimes the OE links have rubber bushings which reduces precision and speed of reaction. Monoball is generally desired on all suspension joints for a track / race car.

2 - The OE links may not be the correct length. Once you add sway bars, aftermarket suspension, maybe aftermarket suspension arms, etc. - things get more and more difficult to fit. I have had to go to adjustable end links to adjust my sway bars to clear suspension components, plus adjust the links to clear the sway bar itself and other suspension parts. Things get complicated the further you go with customizing your suspension. I have hours and hours into getting my suspension setup to not only perform, but also to eliminate rubbing and clearance issues with parts from various manufacturers. In the instance of my M3 with SPL arms and Öhlins TTX suspension, I had to switch from Eibach sway bars to Hotchkis to simply clear my rear struts. The Eibach's were just a little too narrow, therefore they would rub my shock. It's been very frustrating at times. The labor to drop my rear sub frame for the second time was not welcome.

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by kpewpew

Somebody had to fill in while you're out tiger woodsing the world

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

Yeah, Dinan end links.

I just got back from the shop, had to take the race-car in this morning for something else. The mounting point on the damper was bent in addition to the crack/shear that broke it off. They think something was flexing/twisting when it shouldn't of been and weakened it over time.

We'll be replacing the entire shock with a new unit they already have en-route from MCS and will still troubleshoot to see if any of the bushings or ball joints need replaced.

Also, when one of your M3s is in the shop, it's important to bring the other one in so they don't get lonely:

Lol same combo as @redpriest

[SQ13]

Originally Posted by dparm

Really? Post a pic. Some cracks are normal. Did you put any of the thermographic paint on the vanes to see how hot it's getting?

No paint and no photos bc I’m not near my car. These aren’t the normal/acceptable cracks. There are some cracks that will catch a fingernail.

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

The silver E46 is sold and now on to a second owner as a track-only car. I get to see it every now and then, I miss it but not enough to buy it back hehe.

I've only been able to do direct comparisons of the PFC rotors vs the Stoptech ones, although now I can also do them vs the AP rotors as well. I'll die of a heart attack from the surprise if the AP ones last longer than the PFCs

Aw

Would you be interested in selling the E46 rotors? What size are the fronts? The street car (with PFC DD rotors) is full weight, so I wonder if the cracks will be less severe on my track car which is ~400 lbs lighter.

[PrimeBMW]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

Yeah, Dinan end links.

I just got back from the shop, had to take the race-car in this morning for something else. The mounting point on the damper was bent in addition to the crack/shear that broke it off. They think something was flexing/twisting when it shouldn't of been and weakened it over time.

We'll be replacing the entire shock with a new unit they already have en-route from MCS and will still troubleshoot to see if any of the bushings or ball joints need replaced.

Also, when one of your M3s is in the shop, it's important to bring the other one in so they don't get lonely:

If only we could get one of your cars off the lift we could put mine on and how much this last weekend cost me 🤣
*I haven't had the stomach to look at the pre-race bill

It seems as though the car is just too fast and starts coming apart after 30-60 minutes. Some of the suspension was safety wired but now every single nut and bolt will be.

[fsmtnbiker]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

The thing is the end link itself is intact. The failure point was on the MCS shock housing itself. That said, they are thinking that there was some torsional forces through the end link that was stressing the connection to the shock body, and that was the weakest point of failure.

The guys at AR seem to think it's got something to do with the links / sway bar setup and not the damper quality itself. I mean, they run MCS on dozens of track and race cars and have only seen this failure once or twice before and it was also with Dinan bars and links.

I would put money on the endlinks not having enough articulation in certain situations, and putting a bending stress on the damper tab. I've seen this with aftermarket endlinks in the past. Check the damper on the other side of the car for any evidence that the tab is seeing the same stresses.

Either that or it starting to come loose. Once they start to get loose at all, the forces skyrocket on that mounting tab and it's only a matter of time.

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

If only we could get one of your cars off the lift we could put mine on and how much this last weekend cost me 🤣
*I haven't had the stomach to look at the pre-race bill

It seems as though the car is just too fast and starts coming apart after 30-60 minutes. Some of the suspension was safety wired but now every single nut and bolt will be.

No! You have to wait your turn.

[PrimeBMW]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

No! You have to wait your turn.

Oh I can jump the line if I want! But I'm pretty sure you did if your car is on the lift on a Monday.

[Chris_PDX]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

Oh I can jump the line if I want! But I'm pretty sure you did if your car is on the lift on a Monday.

Dampers are off and the way back to MCS. They have some other singles coming for a race build that they'll put on mine and then use my rebuilds on the racer to get it turned around quicker.

Sigh.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

Dampers are off and the way back to MCS. They have some other singles coming for a race build that they'll put on mine and then use my rebuilds on the racer to get it turned around quicker.

Sigh.

Lots of the Texas HPDE guys love Inertial Lab for rebuilds, maybe keep them in mind for next time if you need fast turn-around:

http://www.inertialaboratory.com

[slicer]

Originally Posted by fsmtnbiker

I would put money on the endlinks not having enough articulation in certain situations, and putting a bending stress on the damper tab. I've seen this with aftermarket endlinks in the past. Check the damper on the other side of the car for any evidence that the tab is seeing the same stresses.

Either that or it starting to come loose. Once they start to get loose at all, the forces skyrocket on that mounting tab and it's only a matter of time.

Good call. The end link needs to be checked for full articulation throughout the steering range. You may need to change your mounting hardware, endlink length or the mounting point on the shock body to improve articulation. Is the end link mount on the shock fixed or can it be rotated? I have had to spend a lot of time getting this adjustment right on my kit. Including custom end link lengths and mounting hardware.

It's definitely not a plug and play install on the front. Especially when you swap suspension, sway bars, end links, and/or suspension arms. Techs can be rushed, lazy, or just make mistakes. Don't assume they did it right.

[Chris_PDX]

I am not having very good luck with cars on track this week. This is my E46 M3 dedicated track car. And yes, that's an OEM BMW wheel hub:

[SQ13]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

I am not having very good luck with cars on track this week. This is my E46 M3 dedicated track car. And yes, that's an OEM BMW wheel hub:

Wtf, how?! I was planning on having my front wheel bearings and hub replaced preventively in the next couple of months, but I might have to expedite that job. No tools for it, so I’ll have to outsource

[dparm]

Dang, how did you discover that happened?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Chris_PDX

I am not having very good luck with cars on track this week. This is my E46 M3 dedicated track car. And yes, that's an OEM BMW wheel hub:

dammit! Dogbone has also broken hubs. Really scary stuff!

[roastbeef]

Was it vibrating like crazy? I would imagine separation like that would throw it off balance. Any symptoms at all?

[newbieE92]

Hello, fellow drivers! I’m new to this forum as I just purchased an e92 M3. Yesterday in fact. I’m not new to HPDEs. I’ve been attending 3-4 events a year for the past 6 years. I’ve been to most of the tracks in my area (i.e. Road America, BIR, Mid Ohio, MAM). Blackhawk is on my list but I haven’t made it yet. I’ve been running an e46 330 with suspension upgrades. I couldn’t be more excited about this step up in cars! My first DE in the new car will be Oktoberfast at Road America. I am planning to start with consumables that I settled on for the e46, but I want to draw on your collective wisdom to make sure I’m not missing anything/making obvious mistakes. There is only one other e92 in the group of track folks I typically run with, so I have limited friends with experience with this car to call. I’ll likely add camber plates over the winter/spring but I’m not planning any mods for now. This is just a list of consumables to maximize my fun for my first event in this car. Anyway, here’s what I’m thinking:
ARC-8s and Nitto NT-01s (a great economical combo for the e46, and it appears you guys/gals endorse them as well)
I’m thinking 275/35 18s for the first set of tires
Hawk DTC-70s
Ate Typ 200 fluid
Schroth Quick Fit Pro harness (I’m hoping my current set will bolt in without an issue)
In terms of wheels, I have read the recommendation in this thread to go with 10.5 as opposed to 10. I also read the 10.5 is available with an offset of 22 which eliminates the need for spacers. However, I don’t see that wheel on the Apex website. I would prefer to avoid spacers if possible. Who wouldn’t? Anyone have suggestions for how to track down 10.5s with the offset of 22?
Thanks in advance for your input!

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

dammit! Dogbone has also broken hubs. Really scary stuff!

When did this happen? Did he tap for m14 studs yet?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

When did this happen? Did he tap for m14 studs yet?

he is running 14mm up front

[OG Shark]

Wow that crack in the hub is ugly. Damn good catch. Wonder if this is another nod if favor of the future classic upgrade kit.

Originally Posted by newbieE92

Hello, fellow drivers! I’m new to this forum as I just purchased an e92 M3. Yesterday in fact. I’m not new to HPDEs. I’ve been attending 3-4 events a year for the past 6 years. I’ve been to most of the tracks in my area (i.e. Road America, BIR, Mid Ohio, MAM). Blackhawk is on my list but I haven’t made it yet. I’ve been running an e46 330 with suspension upgrades. I couldn’t be more excited about this step up in cars! My first DE in the new car will be Oktoberfast at Road America. I am planning to start with consumables that I settled on for the e46, but I want to draw on your collective wisdom to make sure I’m not missing anything/making obvious mistakes. There is only one other e92 in the group of track folks I typically run with, so I have limited friends with experience with this car to call. I’ll likely add camber plates over the winter/spring but I’m not planning any mods for now. This is just a list of consumables to maximize my fun for my first event in this car. Anyway, here’s what I’m thinking:
ARC-8s and Nitto NT-01s (a great economical combo for the e46, and it appears you guys/gals endorse them as well)
I’m thinking 275/35 18s for the first set of tires
Hawk DTC-70s
Ate Typ 200 fluid
Schroth Quick Fit Pro harness (I’m hoping my current set will bolt in without an issue)
In terms of wheels, I have read the recommendation in this thread to go with 10.5 as opposed to 10. I also read the 10.5 is available with an offset of 22 which eliminates the need for spacers. However, I don’t see that wheel on the Apex website. I would prefer to avoid spacers if possible. Who wouldn’t? Anyone have suggestions for how to track down 10.5s with the offset of 22?
Thanks in advance for your input!

Apex FL-5 18x10.5 ET22 Think it is model dependent with them if the make the ET22. Not sure what they are doing with their new forged line. Can also have them made to your specifications - that is the route I went with Signature Wheel - Signature Wheel SV502.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by OG Shark

Can also have them made to your specifications - that is the route I went with Signature Wheel - Signature Wheel SV502.

I like the Signature Wheel designs but can't bring myself to buy these "boutique" forged wheels that have popped up out of nowhere. It's why I went with Forgeline (also custom made to spec). My decisions are always based around what I see race teams use and the R&D companies put in to their products.

If I just wanted some new wheels for the street, I would consider the Signature wheels. But that's just me.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

he is running 14mm up front

I'm wondering if this is why the cracking happened...