Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[JFWM3]

Originally Posted by houston

Looks like his was an 08

Yep, it's an '08.

Originally Posted by Mvy

Really sorry for your loss. Out of curiosity, what year is your car?

No Indicators what so ever. Zero.

[JFWM3]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Man that sucks to hear. Used engines are available in the $8k range. Check ebay. Any indicators before it popped?

And yeah, I will have to go the used route, hoping I can find a lower mile engine, that hasn't been abused.

[Doc Oc]

http://m.ebay.com/itm/S65B44-BMW-M3-...608?nav=SEARCH

[houston]

might want to watch out for this one... person keeps posting the same stock photos and selling

http://www.ebay.com/sch/bmwlider/m.h...p2046732.m1684

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

http://m.ebay.com/itm/S65B44-BMW-M3-...608?nav=SEARCH

I would doubt the legitimacy of that listing simply because he has it incorrectly identified as a B44. Most if not all junkyard sellers on eBay post stock photos of an engine sold long ago. When a buyer purchases, they run out and yank whatever engine they have on the lot. Rarely are they ever tested, as most of the cars they get from auctions are incapable of being started.

[Doc Oc]

While you definitely have to be careful on eBay, you are usually safe dealing with longtime sellers with good ratings. Redline Performance in FL is selling the engine. Guaranteed running condition. I almost bought it last month. The mislabelling is a little concerning though, I'll give you that

http://redlinebmwmini.com

[houston]

BMW has now had my car for nearly a month and no word yet if they are going to good will my 2011.75 engine with 17003 miles.

For anyone who has been through this process, does this length of time sound reasonable?

Also the dealership has not provided a loaner car, because no one has authorized them to perform the repair yet.

This seems excessive, but I am hoping for a favorable outcome.

However, the last communication I had with the dealership they seem to be hunting for excuses.

"The car is missing its air filter". (It was in the trunk, removed by the shop I brought the car to on the Saturday that it died on me) then it was "ohh you brought it to another shop first, that may be a problem". Yes I took it to a shop that did nothing more than confirm the engine was locked by trying to turn the crank pulley

NEither of those have anything to do with the 17003 mile engine locking up.

I am getting a bit frustrated.

[dry87]

How many rod bearing avaiblle in the market? Which one has proven the better solution for s65?

[SDPLV]

Originally Posted by dry87

How many rod bearing avaiblle in the market? Which one has proven the better solution for s65?

BE Bearings w/ OEM or ARP bolts

[pbonsalb]

BE is actually a latecomer to the market. I think it probably is better but has not yet been proven to be better. Probably the later vac are the most proven at this point in time. In a few years, there will be much more data, as more replaced bearings come back out for a 2nd replacement. So far, only a handful have been checked, mostly vac, and they have looked good.

I have oem with wpc, and probably the most replacements have been done with those since it was the earliest "improved" replacement. Today, Id probably buy BE but they were not on the market when I did mine in 2014 (@60k; now @81k). Ill be changing them again in a few years and will review the data for the available options then.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

BE is actually a latecomer to the market. I think it probably is better but has not yet been proven to be better. Probably the later vac are the most proven at this point in time. In a few years, there will be much more data, as more replaced bearings come back out for a 2nd replacement. So far, only a handful have been checked, mostly vac, and they have looked good.

Yes VAC beat BE to market, but only by a couple of months. If we go all the way back, RG was pushing guys to do bearings and nobody stepped up to the plate. We (my shop) were the ones who told RG about WPC treatment, and I think it's fair to say RG evangelized the whole WPC treated bearings -- while waiting for somebody to make a real solution. When that didn't happen, a few business guys stepped up to the plate, worked with RG and his racing and OEM design contacts, and created the BE Bearings solution. About the same time BE was started, VAC worked with Clevite to come up with their own bearings, and beat BE to market by a couple of months. Given RG's involvement in driving this issue from the very beginning, his evangelizing WPC, and then working with business guys to create BE, I don't think a couple of months after VAC/Clevite means a whole lot for being a latecomer.

I also have a hard nose about pulling bearings, looking at them, and calling it data. I know what you're getting at and it's good anecdotal evidence if it's done right. But correct me if I'm wrong, haven't all the ones been pulled so far also had the VAC bolts which are known to cause bore distortion and extra clearance? I think so, but not totally sure. The ones with bore distortion need to be discounted and ignored. We pulled a set of the VAC OEM coated bearings with factory rod bolts after 1500 miles. They already had light wear marks on them. They used the OEM bolts without the bore distortion and showed wear marks after 1500 miles. As far as I know, that's the only real piece of data collected on the old VAC bearings with proper rod bolts; although there may be others that I haven't seen. We gave them to RG and I think he put them on his photo blog somewhere, but I have no idea how to find the photos at this point.

Here's a sneak peek at what I'm hoping RG will get finished in the next few weeks. IMO, this is what real data is supposed to look like. BE had a test car fitted for the last year with a brand new set of OEM bearings and OEM rod bolts and Castrol TWS 10W60 oil. It was totally 100% stock including exhaust and ECU tune. The car was outfitted with full data logging capabilities. In addition to the entire engine CAN bus, a data logging oil pressure sensor and a super nice oil flow sensor was attached. The oil flow sensor was custom made by Flow Technologies with temperature and viscosity correction. It was programmed and calibrated by Flow Technologies for Castrol TWS 10W60 oil (it can be reprogrammed to different oils after this test is completed). The car was driven for a year this way and every cold start and every mile driven was data logged at 10 samples per second. RG told me 5.4 million samples were collected with 142 million individual data items logged. Then the engine was switched to BE Bearings and the whole thing started all over again. I'm told there's some very interesting data collected with the OEM bearings. And now that the BE Bearings data is being collected, RG plans to start posting the results on a monthly basis. I'm not sure what that means or where he'll post it. Most likely he'll put it on his wiki and let me cross post it here. That's what I'm hoping for. Stay tuned.

[aus]

Is RG going to post here? Can he still post here??

Also, can anyone confirm the newer VAC bearings have increased clearance like the BE bearings?

And when will the BE bearings be in stock again??
.

[Doc Oc]

I measured each bearing before selling my core last week. With ARP hardware the newer vac bearings gave clearances between .0017 and .0019" on my engine with plastigauge. RG's wiki and/or be's site has lots of info on them though.

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

Yes VAC beat BE to market, but only by a couple of months. If we go all the way back, RG was pushing guys to do bearings and nobody stepped up to the plate. We (my shop) were the ones who told RG about WPC treatment, and I think it's fair to say RG evangelized the whole WPC treated bearings -- while waiting for somebody to make a real solution. When that didn't happen, a few business guys stepped up to the plate, worked with RG and his racing and OEM design contacts, and created the BE Bearings solution. About the same time BE was started, VAC worked with Clevite to come up with their own bearings, and beat BE to market by a couple of months. Given RG's involvement in driving this issue from the very beginning, his evangelizing WPC, and then working with business guys to create BE, I don't think a couple of months after VAC/Clevite means a whole lot for being a latecomer.

I also have a hard nose about pulling bearings, looking at them, and calling it data. I know what you're getting at and it's good anecdotal evidence if it's done right. But correct me if I'm wrong, haven't all the ones been pulled so far also had the VAC bolts which are known to cause bore distortion and extra clearance? I think so, but not totally sure. The ones with bore distortion need to be discounted and ignored. We pulled a set of the VAC OEM coated bearings with factory rod bolts after 1500 miles. They already had light wear marks on them. They used the OEM bolts without the bore distortion and showed wear marks after 1500 miles. As far as I know, that's the only real piece of data collected on the old VAC bearings with proper rod bolts; although there may be others that I haven't seen. We gave them to RG and I think he put them on his photo blog somewhere, but I have no idea how to find the photos at this point.

Here's a sneak peek at what I'm hoping RG will get finished in the next few weeks. IMO, this is what real data is supposed to look like. BE had a test car fitted for the last year with a brand new set of OEM bearings and OEM rod bolts and Castrol TWS 10W60 oil. It was totally 100% stock including exhaust and ECU tune. The car was outfitted with full data logging capabilities. In addition to the entire engine CAN bus, a data logging oil pressure sensor and a super nice oil flow sensor was attached. The oil flow sensor was custom made by Flow Technologies with temperature and viscosity correction. It was programmed and calibrated by Flow Technologies for Castrol TWS 10W60 oil (it can be reprogrammed to different oils after this test is completed). The car was driven for a year this way and every cold start and every mile driven was data logged at 10 samples per second. RG told me 5.4 million samples were collected with 142 million individual data items logged. Then the engine was switched to BE Bearings and the whole thing started all over again. I'm told there's some very interesting data collected with the OEM bearings. And now that the BE Bearings data is being collected, RG plans to start posting the results on a monthly basis. I'm not sure what that means or where he'll post it. Most likely he'll put it on his wiki and let me cross post it here. That's what I'm hoping for. Stay tuned.

This is very interesting development! Can't wait to see.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

I measured each bearing before selling my core last week. With ARP hardware the newer vac bearings gave clearances between .0017 and .0019" on my engine with plastigauge. RG's wiki and/or be's site has lots of info on them though.

If I understand you correctly, these measurements show almost same exact clearance as stock and that even with the bore distortion of the VAC ARP bolts. That would be consistent with the original VAC claims that their bearings were meant to keep stock clearances.

[Doc Oc]

Correct if you accept that oem are .0017" and that my torque wrench is accurate

Is the .0015" average Robert sighted for oem no longer accepted?

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Correct if you accept that oem are .0017" and that my torque wrench is accurate

Is the .0015" average Robert sighted for oem no longer accepted?

OK, I talked to Robert today. He updated those other web pages that I think you caught a few weeks ago. He said he'd add a disclaimer on them that the most recent data is on the wiki pages. I also got some clarification about his wiki pages. He said that he keeps all of this measurements in a spreadsheet. As more and more measurements are made, they get rolled up into a master list. The wiki page comes from the master list of rolled up data. So the wiki page will always reflect the latest measurements he's got, but may also change from time to time as more measurements come on line.

So with that said, these are the measurements I'm talking about for OEM (702/703) bearings.

http://wiki.rcollins.org/core/index....ecifications_2

According to that chart, nominal clearance on latest OEM bearings is 0.0017 inch. That's what I was referring to above. Looks like your measurements with Plastigage are right within factory clearances of 0.00135 - 0.0020 inch on 702/703 bearings; with 0.0017 being nominal.

RG also filled me in on the latest data measurements on the bearings. He said people should be prepared to be impressed.

[Doc Oc]

I'm prepared! Shame the man can't post here himself. I spoke to him last month and he was kind enough to offer to measure the vac's I pulled out to see how they really held up. Haven't gotten around to sending them to him yet but will today or tomorrow.

[SDPLV]

Car is in the shop right now.
(Eurotek Tuning - Las Vegas)

Getting the BE bearings w/ OEM bolts put in, and finally some peace of mind! Asked to get the bearings back so should have pics later this week.

Currently sitting at 82.5k miles. Planning to keep this M for a long time. Not a car that was tracked and rock solid for the 4.5k miles I've owned it.

Update: Got a call that one of my motor mounts was cracked in half. Had noticed a harsh cold start, and was already thinking about replacing these anyways. Glad to just get that done with now. Mandatory rear brake pads/rotors are up next. Thinking next preventive fix will be the belts which are about due.

Update: Three bearings were toast, down to the copper on at least one. Shop owner (awesome guy, very knowledgeable and responsive) informed me the engine wouldn't have lasted much longer. Waiting to pick it up, but will post pics soon.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by SDPLV

Car is in the shop right now.
(Eurotek Tuning - Las Vegas)

Getting the BE bearings w/ OEM bolts put in, and finally some peace of mind! Asked to get the bearings back so should have pics later this week.

Currently sitting at 82.5k miles. Planning to keep this M for a long time. Not a car that was tracked and rock solid for the 4.5k miles I've owned it.

Update: Got a call that one of my motor mounts was cracked in half. Had noticed a harsh cold start, and was already thinking about replacing these anyways. Glad to just get that done with now. Mandatory rear brake pads/rotors are up next. Thinking next preventive fix will be the belts which are about due.

Update: Three bearings were toast, down to the copper on at least one. Shop owner (awesome guy, very knowledgeable and responsive) informed me the engine wouldn't have lasted much longer. Waiting to pick it up, but will post pics soon.

Nice, looking forward to some pictures! We became addicted to worn out bearing pic's on this forum...

[redpriest]

Is it possible to measure clearances before replacement? My engine is at 150k miles now and it's getting to be around that time. Would love to measure and see what my clearances would be before bearing replacement. With 41 track days, 150k miles, and driven hard, it would be nice to know what the "special sauce" was for this engine to live so long.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Is it possible to measure clearances before replacement? My engine is at 150k miles now and it's getting to be around that time. Would love to measure and see what my clearances would be before bearing replacement. With 41 track days, 150k miles, and driven hard, it would be nice to know what the "special sauce" was for this engine to live so long.

You have a winner from the German lottery !
Don't touch your bearings ...