Hitting The Proverbial Wall...

[AP3X_FTW]

Originally Posted by radiantm3

You need 650 HP at the track to compensate for going so slow through the corners.

No kidding

They do not want to be passed by skilled S2000 drivers

[Raek]

See, I'm glad to see some "just add parts/tune" people chime in. I also plan on keeping the car (considering it does have the "last of it's kind" potential to be special), and I'm always going back and forth with the idea of doing a heavy mod like FI.

Anyway, JUST got my X-Pipes delivered this morning. Pulleys and intake should be here next week. So, looks like I'll need a tune, Mr. Benvo

[Sered]

Originally Posted by AP3X_FTW

I find it hilarious that M3P is so supercharger oriented. The car is a high revving naturally aspirated beast, and an engineering marvel. If you feel the need to mod it, get a drop in filter, test pipes / x pipe, pulleys and a tune and be done with it. Unless you are trying to be a stop light racer, I just can't understand it.

I love tracking my car knowing that I do not have to worry about cooling issues etc. Save the $7 - $10k and enjoy the car in its true form.

Also, I have noticed that most buyers (including myself) stay away from supercharged cars.

A beast? Hardly. An engineering marvel for 2008? sure. Some people like to go fast and still handle very well; so they mod the M3. Others are content at either being slow or being willfully ignorant about how much slower they are than other cars with similar money invested. And what's a stop-light racer? I'm guessing you've never been in an actual fast car before. We all forgot the M3 was absolutely perfect bone stock so there was never any reason for someone to mod the car.

FWIW the cooling issues mostly stem from the terrible IC cooling setup that several of the common S/C kits have. It's fixable though. And other kits do not suffer from this problem.

Originally Posted by W Cole

Very few cars (none?) can be modded to 650HP for as little money as the M3. The superchargers are very refined, widely used, are completely bolt on and have 0 drivability issues. IMO its easy to see why its so popular.

If you are looking for a car to mod to big HP I think the M3, Porsche 997.1 turbo and GTR are your top 3.

I also track my car along with many others without issue.

You REALLY need to get out and see new platforms. The M3 is extremely expensive in comparison to other cars.

[AP3X_FTW]

Originally Posted by Sered

A beast? Hardly. An engineering marvel for 2008? sure. Some people like to go fast and still handle very well; so they mod the M3. Others are content at either being slow or being willfully ignorant about how much slower they are than other cars with similar money invested. And what's a stop-light racer? I'm guessing you've never been in an actual fast car before. We all forgot the M3 was absolutely perfect bone stock so there was never any reason for someone to mod the car.

FWIW the cooling issues mostly stem from the terrible IC cooling setup that several of the common S/C kits have. It's fixable though. And other kits do not suffer from this problem.

I don't even know where to begin with your statements, nor do I care to enter into a pissing contest. I will just move along here.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Raek

See, I'm glad to see some "just add parts/tune" people chime in. I also plan on keeping the car (considering it does have the "last of it's kind" potential to be special), and I'm always going back and forth with the idea of doing a heavy mod like FI.

Anyway, JUST got my X-Pipes delivered this morning. Pulleys and intake should be here next week. So, looks like I'll need a tune, Mr. Benvo

The xpipe and tune combo makes a nice bump. The extra sound is a very welcomed bonus too.

[W Cole]

Originally Posted by AP3X_FTW

The 997 Turbo and GTR are FI from the factory, big difference. Why would you need 650 HP at the track? Were you out driving the car in NA form?

I have a lot of seat time in cars and on motorcycles on track and I have never understood the argument of "out driving." I am usually one of the faster guys at the track in the "A" group for bikes.

On the bikes the age old argument is: do you really need that high end ohlins suspension? Are you outriding the current suspension? Well at times yes I am but others times not. A professional rider would be at the limit 95% and rarely go over it whereas I am at the limit only 80% (and sometimes over it) but I can still enjoy the upgrade just the same.

I don't really see how this argument applies to power. Anyone can mash the pedal in a straight line. So I guess the answer to your question is yes? Since I mashed the gas in a straight line NA and continue to do this with FI.

I don't think much benefit of a supercharger is realized on the track though. I got mine to enjoy on the street. The ideal street machine can go extremely fast in a straight line while still being precise and able to turn. The M3 is very good at this.

The M3 is a 4 door sedan that is trackable and its a testament to BMW just how well it does on the track. But it is primarily designed as a street machine and is by definition a compromise.

[W Cole]

Originally Posted by Sered

You REALLY need to get out and see new platforms. The M3 is extremely expensive in comparison to other cars.

Which late model german (preferably but as long as its not too embarrassing...) cars can be modded to 650hp for less money than an M3? Say 30k for a used m3, 5k for a used kit and then $900 for a tune so $36,000 all-in.

I think the GTR and Porsche turbo are too expensive but are good options for higher HP (1000+) builds. A corvette also qualifies and parts are cheaper than the M3. What else is out there? I've had my m3 for 5 years now..

[AP3X_FTW]

Originally Posted by W Cole

I have a lot of seat time in cars and on motorcycles on track and I have never understood the argument of "out driving." I am usually one of the faster guys at the track in the "A" group for bikes.

On the bikes the age old argument is: do you really need that high end ohlins suspension? Are you outriding the current suspension? Well at times yes I am but others times not. A professional rider would be at the limit 95% and rarely go over it whereas I am at the limit only 80% (and sometimes over it) but I can still enjoy the upgrade just the same.

I don't really see how this argument applies to power. Anyone can mash the pedal in a straight line. So I guess the answer to your question is yes? Since I mashed the gas in a straight line NA and continue to do this with FI.

I don't think much benefit of a supercharger is realized on the track though. I got mine to enjoy on the street. The ideal street machine can go extremely fast in a straight line while still being precise and able to turn. The M3 is very good at this.

The M3 is a 4 door sedan that is trackable and its a testament to BMW just how well it does on the track. But it is primarily designed as a street machine and is by definition a compromise.

If someone comes out initially to say that they purchased a supercharger for their high revving, naturally aspirated V8 because they like to do high horsepower airstrip events, or because they want to be able to "walk anything that grazes their cities streets" from stop light to stop light, then so be it. They are being honest, and that makes a bit more sense to me (although I personally enjoy my M3's in a different manner).

In regards to the track, you are looking at this in the wrong perspective. Power has everything to do with this principle, and there is a reason why experienced drivers / riders continue to pose the question. Think of your supercharger as a massive band-aid. If you frequent the track as much as you say you do, then you would agree that some of the best drivers are often behind the wheel of a momentum car (Miata, S2000, E30 M3 etc.) Driving a slow car fast and at its limits, is very different then driving a very fast car slow. With 650 hp, you can easily mask errors and still achieve what would be considered a worthy lap time. You are making up time in the straights. Turn entrance and exit speed would be a better indication of how you are doing. The penalties for bad driving techniques are much higher in a low HP car. With 650 hp, you simply mask those errors by recovering lost time.

Suspension and brakes are not held to the same standard. That is why most experts suggest modifying your car in these departments (along with safety) first, prior to adding power. You are addressing the "weak points" of the chassis so to speak, which allow you to lap consistently and safely which builds your skill level.

I do not know you or your driving capabilities first hand, but your justification for supercharging your car by saying, "well I am normally one of the faster drivers out there" does not constitute you needing 650 hp. It is like when I hear people come off the track and say, "I was the fastest out there, nobody passed me!".

Take a look at this forum for example. Most of the dedicated track E9X M3's with skilled drivers behind the wheel have remained naturally aspirated. This is not by coincidence. If you care to learn more about this, you may spend some time on a forum that doesn't rally behind dyno figures.

[M3ANMACHINE]

Originally Posted by Sered

And what's a stop-light racer?

Originally Posted by W Cole

I don't think much benefit of a supercharger is realized on the track though. I got mine to enjoy on the street.

You two should meet.

There is absolutely NO situation in which ~650hp is necessary on the street, nor will there ever be a legal opportunity to use it. Definition of stoplight racer.

[w0ady]

Some tracks require more HP to stay competitive, it's as simple as that as to why I wouldn't mind supercharging in the future. My circle of track friends are fast drivers in fast cars so it's tough keeping up with only 400hp.

[W Cole]

Originally Posted by AP3X_FTW

If someone comes out initially to say that they purchased a supercharger for their high revving, naturally aspirated V8 because they like to do high horsepower airstrip events, or because they want to be able to "walk anything that grazes their cities streets" from stop light to stop light, then so be it. They are being honest, and that makes a bit more sense to me (although I personally enjoy my M3's in a different manner).

In regards to the track, you are looking at this in the wrong perspective. Power has everything to do with this principle, and there is a reason why experienced drivers / riders continue to pose the question. Think of your supercharger as a massive band-aid. If you frequent the track as much as you say you do, then you would agree that some of the best drivers are often behind the wheel of a momentum car (Miata, S2000, E30 M3 etc.) Driving a slow car fast and at its limits, is very different then driving a very fast car slow. With 650 hp, you can easily mask errors and still achieve what would be considered a worthy lap time. You are making up time in the straights. Turn entrance and exit speed would be a better indication of how you are doing. The penalties for bad driving techniques are much higher in a low HP car. With 650 hp, you simply mask those errors by recovering lost time.

Suspension and brakes are not held to the same standard. That is why most experts suggest modifying your car in these departments (along with safety) first, prior to adding power. You are addressing the "weak points" of the chassis so to speak, which allow you to lap consistently and safely which builds your skill level.

I do not know you or your driving capabilities first hand, but your justification for supercharging your car by saying, "well I am normally one of the faster drivers out there" does not constitute you needing 650 hp. It is like when I hear people come off the track and say, "I was the fastest out there, nobody passed me!".

Take a look at this forum for example. Most of the dedicated track E9X M3's with skilled drivers behind the wheel have remained naturally aspirated. This is not by coincidence. If you care to learn more about this, you may spend some time on a forum that doesn't rally behind dyno figures.

Agree with almost everything you say but I am not justifying supercharging by saying I'm fast at the track. I enjoyed the car more on the track without the supercharger actually but it's a more than adequate compromise given the immense increase of enjoyment on the street. If you want something for maximum fun on the track it's not an m3 supercharged or otherwise. I'd even argue it's not a car..

[nick3753]

If you got married a couple of weeks ago, you should have bought it a month ago!

[Raek]

Originally Posted by nick3753

If you got married a couple of weeks ago, you should have bought it a month ago!

Haha...hell, no. The wife fully supports the modding habits. She has her shoes, I have the car!

[Flea7]

Is that a tattoo of a hamburger on your arm?

[Raek]

Close. Cheeseburger.

[e92livin]

The money your spending going full bolt on which will void CPO anyway, just buy a used S/C kit and keep the catless x pipe

[Raek]

I was under the impression that only the parts modified will void warranty for that specific part. My dealership is very mod friendly...I bought the car with the Brembos and Eisenmann, and they still gave me a bumper to bumper warranty (they also replaced my heated seat on my WAY out of warranty 2005 X3 free of charge!).

Either way, I feel that FBO mods can slip under the radar if any dealership maintenance needs to be done. Supercharger just kind of negates all that quite visibly.

[AP3X_FTW]

Originally Posted by e92livin

The money your spending going full bolt on which will void CPO anyway, just buy a used S/C kit and keep the catless x pipe

This assumes that supercharging is inevitable. The catless x pipe (or test pipes) and an aftermarket muffler will be useful regardless of whether he supercharges the car or not. The only "waste" would be the tune.

I see what your saying though. A good tip for anyone who is wondering "will bolt-on's keep me happy", would be to go catless first. This mod will extract the most power out of the s65 in NA form. Yes, you can add pulley's and a tune, but going catless should give you an idea on whether or not it is going to be sufficient enough.