Whos running Mobil 1 0w-40?

[W///]

Originally Posted by aussiem3

Compelling arguments to switch to M1 given that I don't do track days anymore. Yes, I do spirited driving and during the hot summers days the oil temp has seen 102-103 Celsius but during the winter it takes a long time to warm up and then stays just under 100 Celsius.

Evidence from the BL tests on this forum is that there is definite drop in lead in the oil with M1.

My only concern is how will M1 handle 8300 rpm? The reason I am asking is because engines from Porsche and AMG, how far do they rev up to ... just for comparison.

Also topping up of M1 ... what's the consumption like? I top up a litres every 2500 kms with TWS at the moment.

Hope people like Jason who are using M1 wouldn't mind answering. Thgank you

I've got 4-5 BL reports (2 10W60, 2-3 M1) and you are correct, the lead dropped. Car was driven the same way over 5000 miles and the lead went from 9 to a 3 ppm. And this has been repeatable because I've always had low lead ppm, even after a track day and countless mountain runs.

Consumption: With 10W60, I could go 5k miles without having to top up. With M1, I have to add about 0.7 quarts every 3k miles. So even with M1, I've got less oil consumption than what you have on 10W60 (but that's got a lot to do with each engine).

It really comes down to what you are comfortable with using IMO. If it's 10W60, so be it. But my experience with M1 has been great so far. Like many people have said, we don't think M1 is the 100% cure for all these rod bearing issues, but we believe it helps. I took the M3 to the track once and the oil did fine (granted, I'm a novice). I got that out of my system, and now the E92 is more of a nice weather cruiser and goes on mountain runs. M1 just works perfectly for what I need the car for

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by gatorfast

But only if the oil is too thin correct

M1 0w40 is obviously thinner than TWS but that doesnt mean its too thin or wont protect adequately, even at elevated engine temperatures. I havent seen anyone post evidence that running M1 in these conditions is harming the engine or perhaps I missed it.

A rod bearing environment as designed is non- interference....ie the crank surface and the bearing surface do not touch but remain separated by an extremely thin hydrodynamic film of oil. If you operated an engine always within its designed/desired rod bearing performance envelope they would literally last forever.
While the typical S65 engine operates within that envelope say 99.99% of the time, clearly it does not do so for 100% of the time as nearly all removed sets show some indication of contact wear.
Whenever the oil film loses its ability to keep the surfaces apart there is momentary interference between the two surfaces and wear occurs. This in itself further deteriorates the oil film as the friction caused by the two surfaces meeting causes a flash increase in the bearing oil film temperature, decreasing the oils viscosity and its ability to keep the two surfaces separated. Its at this moment that the viscosity of the oil is important.
The maximum load on the rod bearings typically occurs at max rpm - running high rpms with cold or very hot oil is clearly undesirable. The optimum oil temp for sump oil is ~210F, increasing the oil temp above this exponentially reduces the ability of the oil to maintain a stable rod bearing oil film. Keep raising the oil temp and the engine will eventually fail.
As I said if your engine doesn't see oil temps above 210F then you would probably be ok with M1, but tracking with M1 at high temps far less so (IMO).

[Z K]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

As I said if your engine doesn't see oil temps above 210F then you would probably be ok with M1, but tracking with M1 at high temps far less so (IMO).

My oil reports with M1 at the track say otherwise. I tracked in over 110 degrees F weather running the car at full throttle for 20 minutes at a time. The oil analysis looks great with no extra wear on the engine from Mobil1.

Unless you have personal experience driving the car on the track, do not add extra noise to this thread.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Z K

Unless you have personal experience driving the car on the track, do not add extra noise to this thread.

Blimey no one told me you need track experience to contribute on m3post!!
I've tracked in a 996, two 911 turbos, an Audi Quattro, a racing Shelby Cobra replica and race karts....does that count?

[Z K]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Blimey no one told me you need track experience to contribute on m3post!!
I've tracked in a 996, two 911 turbos, an Audi Quattro, a racing Shelby Cobra replica and race karts....does that count?

This thread is about 0w40. You were talking using 0w40 in the M3 on the track. Since you haven't done that, your post does not contribute to this thread. Posting your own theories on how an engine works does not help anyone.

If you have proof to back up what you are posting, please provide it. If you want to post up your own oil analysis running 0w40, please post it. I have and others have posted their personal experiences.

I've been tracking cars for over 15 years. Every car I've owned has gone to the track, including my Nissan Stanza family car with over 200k miles on it.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

optimum oil temp for sump oil is ~210F, increasing the oil temp above this exponentially reduces the ability of the oil to maintain a stable rod bearing oil film. Keep raising the oil temp and the engine will eventually fail.
As I said if your engine doesn't see oil temps above 210F then you would probably be ok with M1, but tracking with M1 at high temps far less so (IMO).

That is a false statement. Most street cars today run 240-250 all day every day in the summer. Even the 328i runs 250 in the summer. Modern synthetics will hold film strength to 300 degrees. If 210 is the magic number every performance engine on the market is blowing up. If the car has a 195 thermostat the oil is always going to be 220 even under normal highway driving..... Unless it is a dry sump like the vette

[W///]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Blimey no one told me you need track experience to contribute on m3post!!
I've tracked in a 996, two 911 turbos, an Audi Quattro, a racing Shelby Cobra replica and race karts....does that count?

Not at all when it comes to talking about running 0W40 on an S65 on a hot track day. Like ZK said, if 0W40 wasn't able to keep up, then we'd be seeing bad oil reports left and right.

I've personally also got reports with both 0W40 and 10W60, in pretty much all driving conditions and all temperatures (ranging from 15F to 100F+ ambient). While I did say that my E92 doesn't see the track anymore, that doesn't mean I'm driving it like a diesel either.

[W///]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

That is a false statement. Most street cars today run 240-250 all day every day in the summer. Even the 328i runs 250 in the summer. Modern synthetics will hold film strength to 300 degrees. If 210 is the magic number every performance engine on the market is blowing up. If the car has a 195 thermostat the oil is always going to be 220 even under normal highway driving..... Unless it is a dry sump like the vette

+1
Dash from a 335iS

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

That is a false statement. Most street cars today run 240-250 all day every day in the summer. Even the 328i runs 250 in the summer. Modern synthetics will hold film strength to 300 degrees. If 210 is the magic number every performance engine on the market is blowing up. If the car has a 195 thermostat the oil is always going to be 220 even under normal highway driving..... Unless it is a dry sump like the vette

The optimum steady state sump oil temp is directed by the oil cooler thermostatic valves, typically this is around 195-220....unless you think every car that runs in a cool climate (with the oil going no higher than ~210F - my car in UK) purposely runs cold oil temps?
Anything above that typical steady state temperature is by definition sub-optimal....keep increasing the sump oil temp (noting that oil passing through the bearings is already at a significantly higher temp) and eventually the engine will fail. There is no disputing that.
EDIT
Maybe if someone else says it:
http://www.elephantracing.com/techto...emperature.htm

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

The optimum steady state sump oil temp is directed by the oil cooler thermostatic valves, typically this is around 195-220....unless you think every car that runs in a cool climate (with the oil going no higher than ~210F - my car in UK) purposely runs cold oil temps?
Anything above that typical steady state temperature is by definition sub-optimal. keep increasing the sump oil temp (noting that oil passing through the bearings is already at a significantly higher temp) and the eventually engine will fail. There is no disputing that.

You totally lost me. It is not possible to run cold oil temps no matter how cold it is outside. Eventually the water will heat the oil to the thermostat point on a external system. On a internal system it will always be higher.

Sub optimal according to who??? Where did you get this number about 210 degrees. That was back in the mineral based oil days with 175 degree thermostats.
The oil is cooler going into the bearings than the sump temp. That is what the cooler is for. The gauge doesnt read temp IN it reads SUMP temp, which is in turn OUT temp. For a engine to fail it would have to be over 300 on oil for a extended period of time. Even at that point the oil temp is not what causes a failure it is the water temp that will lead to failure.

OK, first off the article states the obvious, the hotter it is the thinner the oil becomes. What you fail to realize is just because the oil gets thinner doesnt mean it is still not adequate on lubrication.
The article is also published for a 911 engine. If the engine wont hold a oil temp more than 210 it is a crappy ass design. If the oil cant hold up its shear strength past 210 then the oil sucks. This is not the 80's anymore. And if ones engine runs hotter that what the oil is designed for it is the owners responsibility to run a higher weight oil that will stand up.
I would straight up laugh in some porsche dudes face if we were at the track and he said he had to pull back into the paddock because the oil was over 210 and the engine was going to blow all to pieces.

[SenorFunkyPants]

I don't know how I can make it any clearer.
The water and oil temps are principally controlled by thermostatic valves.
The engine designer picks these valve settings to achieve the optimum running temps for these liquids for the vast majority of owners running their cars on the highway. The oil temps that the typical owner sees in his car will that number chosen by the engine designer. That number is around 210F (at least for my car where the engine oil temp is currently dictated by the ambient air temp of ~25 to 40F.
Increasing the oil temp exponentially increases engine wear all else being equal.
Run with hot enough oil and the engine will expire.
Those crappy 911s run mobil 1 IIRC

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I don't know how I can make it any clearer.
The water and oil temps are principally controlled by thermostatic valves.
The engine designer picks these valve settings to achieve the optimum running temps for these liquids for the vast majority of owners running their cars on the highway. The oil temps that the typical owner sees in his car will that number chosen by the engine designer. That number is around 210F (at least for my car where the engine oil temp is currently dictated by the ambient air temp of ~25 to 40F.
Increasing the oil temp exponentially increases engine wear all else being equal.
Run with hot enough oil and the engine will expire.
Those crappy 911s run mobil 1 IIRC

What is exactly your agenda here?

I gave you examples of everyday cars that ALWAYS run 240-250. So your saying all the 328 and 335's on the road are due to expire early because they do not run the majical 210 temperature. Gotya, guess I better sell my 328 because it is going to blow up at any minute now from running 250 even in the winter.

I also like how you were so hell bent on we might make a few bucks on the clevite bearings so telling people not to believe everything we say. Yet you want everyone to believe the article you posted as the god send on oil temp yet it was published by a company that is trying to sell you a oil cooler for a porsche.

[SenorFunkyPants]

I'm not interested in your strawman 328/335 oil temps this is about M3 oil temps.
I have no agenda and I stand by everything I've said.
Again maybe if some else says it:
This from AE Haas on BITOG.
"If you drive your car around town then you need to change the oil for that situation. Use racing oil on the track and urban oil around town. The best situation as described by Ferrari is to use the 0W-40 around town and the 10W-60 “racing oil” on the [hot] track."

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by Z K

... including my Nissan Stanza family car with over 200k miles on it.

wait...pics or didn't happen. lol.

[Shredicus]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I'm not interested in your strawman 328/335 oil temps this is about M3 oil temps.
I have no agenda and I stand by everything I've said.
Again maybe if some else says it:
This from AE Haas on BITOG.
"If you drive your car around town then you need to change the oil for that situation. Use racing oil on the track and urban oil around town. The best situation as described by Ferrari is to use the 0W-40 around town and the 10W-60 “racing oil” on the [hot] track."

Wait, weren't you just using 911 oil temps to try and expound your opinion on optimal operating range? And wait... Ferrari?

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Shredicus

Wait, weren't you just using 911 oil temps to try and expound your opinion on optimal operating range? And wait... Ferrari?

You cant argue with someone like that. They always change the story to meet the agenda.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

wait...pics or didn't happen. lol.

I'll try to find a picture... this was in the days before digital cameras were common. I think I have a scanned picture somewhere on my hard drive.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I'm not interested in your strawman 328/335 oil temps this is about M3 oil temps.
I have no agenda and I stand by everything I've said.
Again maybe if some else says it:
This from AE Haas on BITOG.
"If you drive your car around town then you need to change the oil for that situation. Use racing oil on the track and urban oil around town. The best situation as described by Ferrari is to use the 0W-40 around town and the 10W-60 “racing oil” on the [hot] track."

Because the oil is smart enough to know "oh I am in a 328 so it is cool to be 250 but when I jump over to the M3 I need to be 210"
Whatever

[aussiem3]

Originally Posted by W///

I've got 4-5 BL reports (2 10W60, 2-3 M1) and you are correct, the lead dropped. Car was driven the same way over 5000 miles and the lead went from 9 to a 3 ppm. And this has been repeatable because I've always had low lead ppm, even after a track day and countless mountain runs.

Consumption: With 10W60, I could go 5k miles without having to top up. With M1, I have to add about 0.7 quarts every 3k miles. So even with M1, I've got less oil consumption than what you have on 10W60 (but that's got a lot to do with each engine).

It really comes down to what you are comfortable with using IMO. If it's 10W60, so be it. But my experience with M1 has been great so far. Like many people have said, we don't think M1 is the 100% cure for all these rod bearing issues, but we believe it helps. I took the M3 to the track once and the oil did fine (granted, I'm a novice). I got that out of my system, and now the E92 is more of a nice weather cruiser and goes on mountain runs. M1 just works perfectly for what I need the car for

Thanks

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Because the oil is smart enough to know "oh I am in a 328 so it is cool to be 250 but when I jump over to the M3 I need to be 210"
Whatever

Can it really be this hard to understand?
Again from BITOG:
"Oils are chosen by the manufacturer to give the right thickness at the normal operating temperature of the engine. I will say this average oil temperature is 212°F, the boiling point of water. On the track that temperature is up to 302°F. It is important to realize that these are two different operating environments and require different oils."
AE Haas motor oil 101
Take it up with him....I can't seem to explain myself in a way that you can understand.
Also check with your buddies in your engine department about how damaging very high oil temps is to engines.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Can it really be this hard to understand?
Again from BITOG:
"Oils are chosen by the manufacturer to give the right thickness at the normal operating temperature of the engine. I will say this average oil temperature is 212°F, the boiling point of water. On the track that temperature is up to 302°F. It is important to realize that these are two different operating environments and require different oils."
AE Haas motor oil 101
Take it up with him....I can't seem to explain myself in a way that you can understand.
Also check with your buddies in your engine department about how damaging very high oil temps is to engines.

Dont need to check with my buddies, we race 300-320 on oil all day long with water temp of 250-260. No failures from June to November. Now that is a racing engine but the fact remains the oil is good way beyond your stated spec of 210
I also wouldnt take everything your buddie at Haas 101 as truth, there are quite a few things in his article that are actually not true.
Like this statement..."More pressure is not better, it can only result from the impedance of oil flow. Remember that oil flow is the only thing that does the lubricating."
That is partly true. When using thinner oils the pressure inside the shell can make a big difference when it comes to overlay erosion. The higher pressure will stop the oil from exploding under the pressure of the bearing thus minimizing cavitaion.
So going from a 40wt tot a 30wt with the same pressure could result in cavitaion, upping the oil pressure will stop that cavitation while still getting the benefits of the lower weight.

[gatorfast]

I think the crux of SFP's argument is that when oil temps get elevated the oil thins out, and, if it becomes too thin to protect the engine bad things can happen. What everyone else is saying is that there is no evidence that M1 0w40 gets too thin to adequately protect the engine even in extreme heat environments as many members have run this oil at the track with no issues and clean oil analysis reports.