Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Try as I might, I can't see how that fits with what we know about the location spread of engine failures.
USA has ~ half of the E9x M3 sales....where you are nearly twice as likely to have an engine failure in a warm/hot state than a cool one {as a function of the estimated percentage of sales per state).
Northern Europe has ~ a third of world sales where with a cooler climate there are few (non confirmed) failures.
The ROW has failures (some confirmed and some anecdotal) in Bahrain, Spain, Singapore, Australia, Korea and Lithuania....pretty much all warm/hot climates.

If the OEM oil weight was too heavy then surely we would expect to see the location of failures to favour cool/cold climates instead the vast majority occur in warm/hot climes.

No matter how you look at it, and regardless of climate, starting an engine that is cold (not at operating temperature) is when most wear occurs. A 0 weight oil will always protect better at startup due to it's lower viscosity. Let's assume the ambient temperature is 100F (38C a sensible temperature for Florida or California and the oil we use is Mobil1 0w40) the Mobil is no where close to the operating viscosity of the oil. In fact the Mobil is still three time as viscous at 40C as the TWS is at operating temp. At 40C the TWS is over twice as viscous as the Mobil. With the clearances in the S65 a lighter oil is going to do you better at startup without question.

As for the Mobil being lighter at operating temp, the TWS has shown in almost all of the oil analysis that I have viewed, that it shears into a 40w oil within the first 2000 miles anyway........ Basically for the majority of the oil change interval in using the TWS you have a 10w40 in the sump anyway.

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by swifty

Few questions:

Is there an easy way to determine how many of these blown motors or engines with high bearing wear were supercharged? I ask this because a year ago that used to be the sentiment here but lately you can find many cars that are stock blowing their motors or have badly worn bearings.

Also do you guys think, changing xpipes or test pipes have anything to do with it?

Has anyone under warranty replaced their bearings to WPC treated ones (either by the dealer or 3rd party)? Would dealerships do it if you were willing to pay and would the warranty be still valid?

I wouldn't let any dealership replace internals of my engine, but that could be just my paranoia from poor experiences. X pipes have nothing to do with bearing lubrication.

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

That's exactly the same thing of what they said to me at my BMW/Dealer !
Actualy I showed the///M tech this thread,he said he never saw bearing failures like this , and saw on his facial expression that the man was realy surprised to see such a big problem on the S65 !
My next question was....
Why in the US and in some other countries and here not ?
He answered ... the fuel quality , Keep on using 98 RON and you will never know that you ever had bearings !
I posted this already on here but was talked away I thought by Kawasaki,not sure if it was him, but he was saying that's the same fuel quality as over here,we have just other specs in the US for fuel ?
Note; my car never had something else than 98 RON and runs just perfect and hope to keep it this way !
There are moments that i'm getting out of my mind when i'm seeing all these S65's and people ending in big 5H1T ,at those moments I don't find any kind words for BMW !
So for me it's only 98 RON & EDGE ! Anyway hope future will tell more....

Isn't your 98 RON ~92 here? (AKI)? Aside from Crapifornia/Arizona gas, there have been non-91 bearing issues. These two low octane states are quite large, so mileage, traffic, ambient temps may also play a factor.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by thekurgan

Isn't your 98 RON ~92 here? (AKI)? Aside from Crapifornia/Arizona gas, there have been non-91 bearing issues. These two low octane states are quite large, so mileage, traffic, ambient temps may also play a factor.

Sorry but I just don't know about the fuel AKI value in the US !
Here we can get 95 RON the cheaper one, and 98 RON and that difference I could feel on my previous BMW , with 98 RON more miles with a tank and car was pulling better ,and in Germany the max is 100 RON .
But i'm still thinking it's not only about the RON,but also about the general quality.

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Sorry but I just don't know about the fuel AKI value in the US !
Here we can get 95 RON the cheaper one, and 98 RON and that difference I could feel on my previous BMW , with 98 RON more miles with a tank and car was pulling better ,and in Germany the max is 100 RON .
But i'm still thinking it's not only about the RON,but also about the general quality.

Agree on the quality, and the additives as well, inconsistencies. I've had bad tanks near my home 3-4 times (Chevron).

I found this, I'm not sure how reliable it is:

Shell V-Power 98: (98 RON + 85 MON) / 2 = 91.5 AKI
Shell V-Power Race 100: (100 RON + 89 MON) / 2 = 94.5 AKI

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by thekurgan

Agree on the quality, and the additives as well, inconsistencies. I've had bad tanks near my home 3-4 times (Chevron).

I found this, I'm not sure how reliable it is:

Shell V-Power 98: (98 RON + 85 MON) / 2 = 91.5 AKI
Shell V-Power Race 100: (100 RON + 89 MON) / 2 = 94.5 AKI

That's clear , thanks !
Indeed , watch out for these bad tanks,never had one here,i'm using always Esso,Shell or Texaco !

[Beemdog]

The US 93 octane ((RON + MON)/2) is equivalent to a 97.4 octane Euro rated (RON) fuel.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by thekurgan

Agree on the quality, and the additives as well, inconsistencies. I've had bad tanks near my home 3-4 times (Chevron).

I found this, I'm not sure how reliable it is:

Shell V-Power 98: (98 RON + 85 MON) / 2 = 91.5 AKI
Shell V-Power Race 100: (100 RON + 89 MON) / 2 = 94.5 AKI

Just saw this...interesting => http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1027361

[Helmsman]

I saw this one Philippe, interesting. And surprising to, would have thought guys who pump up their own oil/gas was garanteed to get the good shit..!

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Does BMW release sales numbers by state?
That would be helpful.

Not that I know of. I was told that by the head of M at a cca meeting I attended ~2010.

[foolio2]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Saw on here a car built end of 2013 with only "6,700" miles on it, and was 100% stock and was never above 5K rpm... engine replacement was required !!!
So that's your answer....

If you're referring to my car that I posted with engine failure at 6700 miles many pages back, let me clarify something. Yes, it was built at the end of 2013 and I religiously observed the breakin by not exceeding the recommended RPM. However, I do have Dinan intake, exhaust, underdrive pulley's, and software. Finally, my engine blew at a track event. The car was driven well within it's parameters and I constantly was checking oil level and temps. It was a hot day, but, that happened after only three 20 minute sessions. It wasn't like the car was extremely overworked or anything... Again, within operational parameters. It certainly saw a extended high rpm that day.

[0-60Motorsports]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

That's clear , thanks !
Indeed , watch out for these bad tanks,never had one here,i'm using always Esso,Shell or Texaco !

Originally Posted by Beemdog

The US 93 octane ((RON + MON)/2) is equivalent to a 97.4 octane Euro rated (RON) fuel.

100 RON = 94 Aki (USA)
98 RON = 93 Aki (USA)
95 RON = 91 Aki (USA)

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by foolio2

If you're referring to my car that I posted with engine failure at 6700 miles many pages back, let me clarify something. Yes, it was built at the end of 2013 and I religiously observed the breakin by not exceeding the recommended RPM. However, I do have Dinan intake, exhaust, underdrive pulley's, and software. Finally, my engine blew at a track event. The car was driven well within it's parameters and I constantly was checking oil level and temps. It was a hot day, but, that happened after only three 20 minute sessions. It wasn't like the car was extremely overworked or anything... Again, within operational parameters. It certainly saw a extended high rpm that day.

Indeed I was referring to your car,because your car had only 6700 miles on it !
The guy was asking that the new type of bearings are better...so your bearings were only 6-8 months old with only 6700 miles on it !
I just wanted to prove that it also happened on brand new engines like yours ,when I saw your first post about it....I was shocked !
The only reason that I mentioned to your car is that it is realy unbelievable ...one of the last builts !
But I didn't knew that your car was slightly tuned , and for me personal with or without tune your S65 was nok and that from out of the factory !
Even when it saw that day extented high rpm's , our cars are built for it !
Again... I feel realy sorry about your luck and hope that your new S65 runs perfect !

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

No matter how you look at it, and regardless of climate, starting an engine that is cold (not at operating temperature) is when most wear occurs. A 0 weight oil will always protect better at startup due to it's lower viscosity.

That is certainly true for some parts of the engine, not sure it applies so much to the main/rod bearings unless you are leaning on the engine when its cold or its arctic temps.
But for the sake of argument lets speculate that the OEM 10W60 oil in the S65 engine causes some wear at start up as a function of ambient temperature. From that we would expect to see a higher failure rate in cooler climates than warm. That we see the opposite infers either that any wear is insignificant or that a higher ambient temperature plays a far larger role, completely overshadowing any cold start wear there might be.
The problem with running a randomly chosen replacement oil is that no one has the slightest idea of the long term outcome and what unintended consequences there might be...what minor benefits that could be gained in cold starts could be far out weighed by losses at high temp high load - who knows how the film strength of M1 compares to the 10W60 in that environment. Does the replacement oil have the same ester content of the OEM and the advanages it gives? To me it seems like quite a gamble.

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

As for the Mobil being lighter at operating temp, the TWS has shown in almost all of the oil analysis that I have viewed, that it shears into a 40w oil within the first 2000 miles anyway........ Basically for the majority of the oil change interval in using the TWS you have a 10w40 in the sump anyway.

The OEM 10W60 shears down to a ~50+W very quickly but then is stable from then on.
Used Castrol 10W60 typical viscosity at 100C is in the range 17.5-18.5 cSt (low 50W)
Used Mobil 1 0W40 typical viscosity at 100C is in the range 12 - 13 cSt (high 30W to low 40W)

Some are lower/higher depending on what top up oils were used.
My OEM 10W60 was 19 cSt after 14800 miles (Only topped up with Castrol 10W60).

[thekurgan]

What about a tune specifically designed for 91 octane? I've sent some PMs to some of the vendors here about their octane specs for their respective tunes and specifically relating to knock control and safety. It's just a thought for us with shitty octane fuel.

[Bimmerchop]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

For maximum S65 engine longevity I would:
Not fit a supercharger
Not fit a underdrive pulley
Or at least don't fit an underdrive pulley that underdrives the water pump and you live in a hot climate
Not live in a hot climate
Not live in a hot climate and use a lighter weight oil
Only use >= 93 aki high quality fuel.
Not track
Or at least not track on super hot days.

Or...buy an extended warranty, drive as you like and let BMW worry about it!

Well that's no fun... E46 M3 here I come!

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

That is certainly true for some parts of the engine, not sure it applies so much to the main/rod bearings unless you are leaning on the engine when its cold or its arctic temps.
But for the sake of argument lets speculate that the OEM 10W60 oil in the S65 engine causes some wear at start up as a function of ambient temperature. From that we would expect to see a higher failure rate in cooler climates than warm. That we see the opposite infers either that any wear is insignificant or that a higher ambient temperature plays a far larger role, completely overshadowing any cold start wear there might be.
The problem with running a randomly chosen replacement oil is that no one has the slightest idea of the long term outcome and what unintended consequences there might be...what minor benefits that could be gained in cold starts could be far out weighed by losses at high temp high load - who knows how the film strength of M1 compares to the 10W60 in that environment. Does the replacement oil have the same ester content of the OEM and the advanages it gives? To me it seems like quite a gamble.




The OEM 10W60 shears down to a ~50+W very quickly but then is stable from then on.
Used Castrol 10W60 typical viscosity at 100C is in the range 17.5-18.5 cSt (low 50W)
Used Mobil 1 0W40 typical viscosity at 100C is in the range 12 - 13 cSt (high 30W to low 40W)

Some are lower/higher depending on what top up oils were used.
My OEM 10W60 was 19 cSt after 14800 miles (Only topped up with Castrol 10W60).

For maximum S65 engine longevity I would:
Not fit a supercharger
Not fit a underdrive pulley
Or at least don't fit an underdrive pulley that underdrives the water pump and you live in a hot climate
Not live in a hot climate
Not live in a hot climate and use a lighter weight oil
Only use >= 93 aki high quality fuel.
Not track
Or at least not track on super hot days.

Or...buy an extended warranty, drive as you like and let BMW worry about it!

Works for me up in the Scandinavian woods mate, but if true obviously a complete bummer for quite a few who lives under constant sun and bought the M3 to use on close by track.
Which BMW sold it for in the first place... and surely aware of that their major target market had low octane fuel only.

It is fishy, coming close to stink.

Following the story with great interest.

Cheers

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

That is certainly true for some parts of the engine, not sure it applies so much to the main/rod bearings unless you are leaning on the engine when its cold or its arctic temps.
But for the sake of argument lets speculate that the OEM 10W60 oil in the S65 engine causes some wear at start up as a function of ambient temperature. From that we would expect to see a higher failure rate in cooler climates than warm. That we see the opposite infers either that any wear is insignificant or that a higher ambient temperature plays a far larger role, completely overshadowing any cold start wear there might be.
The problem with running a randomly chosen replacement oil is that no one has the slightest idea of the long term outcome and what unintended consequences there might be...what minor benefits that could be gained in cold starts could be far out weighed by losses at high temp high load - who knows how the film strength of M1 compares to the 10W60 in that environment. Does the replacement oil have the same ester content of the OEM and the advanages it gives? To me it seems like quite a gamble.

The OEM 10W60 shears down to a ~50+W very quickly but then is stable from then on.
Used Castrol 10W60 typical viscosity at 100C is in the range 17.5-18.5 cSt (low 50W)
Used Mobil 1 0W40 typical viscosity at 100C is in the range 12 - 13 cSt (high 30W to low 40W)

Some are lower/higher depending on what top up oils were used.
My OEM 10W60 was 19 cSt after 14800 miles (Only topped up with Castrol 10W60).

The M1 has a superior basestock to the Castrol, it is specced as OEM for all the AMG cars, Nissan GTR, and Porsches including the GT3 and Turbo cars.

The only reason your oil was at 19 centistokes was because you added make-up oil (and didn't specify how much) which without a doubt boosted the viscosity.

I don't understand your argument here, it doesn't have to be a cold climate to take advantage of flow benefits at startup.... Why do you think race engines or standby generators have the oils heated to operating temperature even if ambient temperature is room temp or greater?

[lutfy]

I inquired about adding one year 'cpo wrap' on my 6 year 100K warranty which is expiring May of 2015. This one year add on (have 59K) was roughly $3.1K (retail of $3.75K). Steep..

Alternately, Fidelity (recommended by two seperate BMW SA's as they have had no issues getting claims from them) sells a Platinum package which includes bumper to bumper including suspension and electronics for $3.6K 3/36K miles.

Their power train package was circa $2.8K (not including steering, AC etc. but includes motor/drivetrain and diff). This is a sure shot for me next April when my warranty is about to run out. A 2/24K package was around $2K which is not bad either.

Anyone else toying with this idea? I am definately in on this. Feel free to share your findings on other warranty companies.

Malek, I am surprised you didnt opt for a dealer replacement under warranty given your car is a 2011?

Lutfy

[swifty]

Originally Posted by foolio2

If you're referring to my car that I posted with engine failure at 6700 miles many pages back, let me clarify something. Yes, it was built at the end of 2013 and I religiously observed the breakin by not exceeding the recommended RPM. However, I do have Dinan intake, exhaust, underdrive pulley's, and software. Finally, my engine blew at a track event. The car was driven well within it's parameters and I constantly was checking oil level and temps. It was a hot day, but, that happened after only three 20 minute sessions. It wasn't like the car was extremely overworked or anything... Again, within operational parameters. It certainly saw a extended high rpm that day.

Ok, now that we know even the low mileage one had some kind of mods & tune on it, can we break these cars (full motor or worn bearing replaced) down to following 3 categories ...

Supercharged
Software Tune
Stock (aftmkt intake, xpipe, test pipe, exhaust acceptable)

I hope I don't get banned for requesting this info regarding the cars with tunes.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

The M1 has a superior basestock to the Castrol,

I think you will find its the other way round.
The Castrol is fully synthetic with ester content.
IIRC the USA Mobil 1 0W40 is "fully synthetic" but contains some conventional oil as a carrier for the add pack.

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

it is specced as OEM for all the AMG cars, Nissan GTR, and Porsches including the GT3 and Turbo cars.

Porsches used to run on Shell, now its Mobil because that is the contract they have, OEM usage signifies nothing.
10W60 is equally spec'ed for some Ferraris, Lambos (including the one make race series) and other high end models.

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

The only reason your oil was at 19 centistokes was because you added make-up oil (and didn't specify how much) which without a doubt boosted the viscosity.

I probably added 2 ltrs over 15k miles...thats not going to make much difference.
Check out the oil analysis thread, it has loads of 10W60 viscosity readings at various mileages, the majority of them are around 18.

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

I don't understand your argument here, it doesn't have to be a cold climate to take advantage of flow benefits at startup.... Why do you think race engines or standby generators have the oils heated to operating temperature even if ambient temperature is room temp or greater?

In race engines its because it allows them to run far tighter clearances in parts like the pistons/bores, which otherwise might not even turn over when cold.

[Malek@MRF]

Originally Posted by lutfy

Malek, I am surprised you didnt opt for a dealer replacement under warranty given your car is a 2011?

Lutfy

The dealer denied warranty. I will have to foot the bill here unfortunately as it seems.