Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by BrewRifle

Let me know what you find out. I'd like to know the exact metals to look for in my reports from here on out.

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...=460760&page=5


"The newer 702/703 bearings are tin/aluminum, not lead/copper like the 088/089 bearings they replaced. They are much harder than the previous bearings too. The new part numbers appear to have entered the system in 2008, but I've only seen these 702/703's on 2011 engines and later. It's not clear to me what to look for in oil analysis for these newer 702/703 bearings." - PencilGeek

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by thekurgan

http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showt...=460760&page=5

Thats a LOL thread....Pencilgeek being all smug and pretending he is not Regular Guy on M3post.

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Thats a LOL thread....Pencilgeek being all smug and pretending he is not Regular Guy on M3post.

I didn't read the entire thing, it's a huge thread. Is the material used on the newer bearings correct, however? I seem to remember photos and it's not copper used as the babbitt.

[SenorFunkyPants]

I don't know what the metals are in the lead free bearings. On Saturday I asked a friend of mine who works at MIRA to look into it and he said he will try...if he remembers.
I guess someone who had a used bearing with the new materials lying about could send it off for analysis but I guess it would cost $$.

[chris719]

Honestly, after reading dozens of UOAs and threads at BITOG, I do not believe you can definitively tell the state of your bearings from used oil analysis, especially if you don't have a complete history.

[surewin]

Originally Posted by rantarM3

You should send your EAS bill to BMW NA along with all the photos & reports you have.

Thanks for the suggestion! I've since emailed BMW NA and I'll update you guys on their response.

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Thats a LOL thread....Pencilgeek being all smug and pretending he is not Regular Guy on M3post.

Super LOL at that thread, alot of info in that thread sure does sound familiar

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by kawasaki00

Super LOL at that thread, alot of info in that thread sure does sound familiar

Man, you guys don't miss much

So I had this question, in speaking with my Indy on this issue.

If you've run an oil that's too thick, and there has been some wear (damage in this case), which would lead to increased clearance in areas of the bearing (change in concentricity/eccentricity), and then you switch to a thinner oil, is there any benefit? Could things get worse?

I'm using Malek's recent issue as he switched later in the engine's life, and I was thinking, if 0w-40 were used from the engine's first oil, would the rod bearings fare better?

[BMRLVR]

Originally Posted by thekurgan

Man, you guys don't miss much

So I had this question, in speaking with my Indy on this issue.

If you've run an oil that's too thick, and there has been some wear (damage in this case), which would lead to increased clearance in areas of the bearing (change in concentricity/eccentricity), and then you switch to a thinner oil, is there any benefit? Could things get worse?

I'm using Malek's recent issue as he switched later in the engine's life, and I was thinking, if 0w-40 were used from the engine's first oil, would the rod bearings fare better?

The rod bearings definitely would have faired better if the 0w40 were used from the start, but, if the clearance is insufficient from the get go the engine most likely would have failed regardless of the oil used.

Lighter oil is "NOT" a fix for this engine but it is indeed a better fit for the clearances used in the S65. Some engines will be just fine as long as all of the crank journals are near the min spec and all of the rod big end bores are near the max of spec. The problem is that in any S65 built the crank journals and rods can be a mix and match of diameters since there are no +/- bearing sizes available to dial in the oil clearances like in most other engines.

It is not uncommon for us to put three or four different bearing sizes on both crank and rods when doing an engine rebuild. The end result of these different size bearings is to get our oil clearances within 0.0005" - 0.00075" of one another (please realize that our average clearance is 0.006" - 0.008" since we are running 6-8" journals).

[Sinful]

No news on what to look for if you own a 2011 and above in a blackstone?
I change my oil myself every 6 months so I figure if I see any major changes over the years in tin, aluminum, copper or lead then I will get it checked out.

Sure does reduce the excitement of BMW ownership when you have to worry about your engine.

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

The rod bearings definitely would have faired better if the 0w40 were used from the start, but, if the clearance is insufficient from the get go the engine most likely would have failed regardless of the oil used.

Lighter oil is "NOT" a fix for this engine but it is indeed a better fit for the clearances used in the S65. Some engines will be just fine as long as all of the crank journals are near the min spec and all of the rod big end bores are near the max of spec. The problem is that in any S65 built the crank journals and rods can be a mix and match of diameters since there are no +/- bearing sizes available to dial in the oil clearances like in most other engines.

It is not uncommon for us to put three or four different bearing sizes on both crank and rods when doing an engine rebuild. The end result of these different size bearings is to get our oil clearances within 0.0005" - 0.00075" of one another (please realize that our average clearance is 0.006" - 0.008" since we are running 6-8" journals).

I also agree that a lighter grade from the start would have been a better idea.

What about wear-induced eccentricity changes? Is this possible or is the wear enough to make a difference in the oil's passage/exit. I noticed measurements in another thread that the eccentricity changed quite a bit for the newer bearings, possibly due to the harder material utilized, so the thought crossed my mind when switching to a lighter grade after eccentricity has happened due to the thicker oil causing contact.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by thekurgan

I also agree that a lighter grade from the start would have been a better idea.

Try as I might, I can't see how that fits with what we know about the location spread of engine failures.
USA has ~ half of the E9x M3 sales....where you are nearly twice as likely to have an engine failure in a warm/hot state than a cool one {as a function of the estimated percentage of sales per state).
Northern Europe has ~ a third of world sales where with a cooler climate there are few (non confirmed) failures.
The ROW has failures (some confirmed and some anecdotal) in Bahrain, Spain, Singapore, Australia, Korea and Lithuania....pretty much all warm/hot climates.

If the OEM oil weight was too heavy then surely we would expect to see the location of failures to favour cool/cold climates instead the vast majority occur in warm/hot climes.

[V1.47fan]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Thats a LOL thread....Pencilgeek being all smug and pretending he is not Regular Guy on M3post.

Hahahahahaha

I didn't know regular guy was pencil Geek...busted!

[thekurgan]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Try as I might, I can't see how that fits with what we know about the location spread of engine failures.
USA has ~ half of the E9x M3 sales....where you are nearly twice as likely to have an engine failure in a warm/hot state than a cool one {as a function of the estimated percentage of sales per state).
Northern Europe has ~ a third of world sales where with a cooler climate there are few (non confirmed) failures.
The ROW has failures (some confirmed and some anecdotal) in Bahrain, Spain, Singapore, Australia, Korea and Lithuania....pretty much all warm/hot climates.

If the OEM oil weight was too heavy then surely we would expect to see the location of failures to favour cool/cold climates instead the vast majority occur in warm/hot climes.

Assuming there is a viscosity issue, is what I should have stated.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

Try as I might, I can't see how that fits with what we know about the location spread of engine failures.
USA has ~ half of the E9x M3 sales....where you are nearly twice as likely to have an engine failure in a warm/hot state than a cool one {as a function of the estimated percentage of sales per state).
Northern Europe has ~ a third of world sales where with a cooler climate there are few (non confirmed) failures.
The ROW has failures (some confirmed and some anecdotal) in Bahrain, Spain, Singapore, Australia, Korea and Lithuania....pretty much all warm/hot climates.

If the OEM oil weight was too heavy then surely we would expect to see the location of failures to favour cool/cold climates instead the vast majority occur in warm/hot climes.

Yes, this is a very interesting mystery.. Either you guys are driving notoriously like nuts from cold start etc, which doesn't seem lightly, or there is an issue with the fuel, which people claim it isn't. What about differences in the US vs EU product, we know there are differences in SW such as DCT. Could it from some strange reason be relevant differences in the ECU programming, or even HW differences?
I'm crazy curious to understand why the engine failures clearly are area depended!

[SenorFunkyPants]

I talked to the M tech guy at my (UK) dealership the other day and he said as far as he knows the S65 is about bulletproof, the dealership group he has worked for the last 16 years hasn't had to do any S65 engine replacements and he hasn't heard of other dealers doing any either. I talked to him about the failures in the USA and all he could come up with as a reason was fuel quality - octane and/or sulphur content.
Maybe a higher ambient air temp makes engine more borderline for fuel quality.
I don't think the oem oil is a factor but poor quality control of the bearing thickness might be.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I talked to the M tech guy at my (UK) dealership the other day and he said as far as he knows the S65 is about bulletproof, the dealership group he has worked for the last 16 years hasn't had to do any S65 engine replacements and he hasn't heard of other dealers doing any either. I talked to him about the failures in the USA and all he could come up with as a reason was fuel quality - octane and/or sulphur content.
Maybe a higher ambient air temp makes engine more borderline for fuel quality.
I don't think the oem oil is a factor but poor quality control of the bearing thickness might be.

My local dealership tech has never heard of it either, don't think that's a relevant data point. I suspect the failure rate isn't higher here, just seems that way because of us getting so many more M cars than anywhere else. Same about the temp distribution within the country, actually (e.g. CA gets 50% of the country's M cars, aka 25% of all M cars in the world).

[SenorFunkyPants]

Originally Posted by Obioban

CA gets 50% of the country's M cars,

Does BMW release sales numbers by state?
That would be helpful.

[swifty]

Few questions:

Is there an easy way to determine how many of these blown motors or engines with high bearing wear were supercharged? I ask this because a year ago that used to be the sentiment here but lately you can find many cars that are stock blowing their motors or have badly worn bearings.

Also do you guys think, changing xpipes or test pipes have anything to do with it?

Has anyone under warranty replaced their bearings to WPC treated ones (either by the dealer or 3rd party)? Would dealerships do it if you were willing to pay and would the warranty be still valid?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I talked to the M tech guy at my (UK) dealership the other day and he said as far as he knows the S65 is about bulletproof, the dealership group he has worked for the last 16 years hasn't had to do any S65 engine replacements and he hasn't heard of other dealers doing any either. I talked to him about the failures in the USA and all he could come up with as a reason was fuel quality - octane and/or sulphur content.
Maybe a higher ambient air temp makes engine more borderline for fuel quality.
I don't think the oem oil is a factor but poor quality control of the bearing thickness might be.

That's exactly the same thing of what they said to me at my BMW/Dealer !
Actualy I showed the///M tech this thread,he said he never saw bearing failures like this , and saw on his facial expression that the man was realy surprised to see such a big problem on the S65 !
My next question was....
Why in the US and in some other countries and here not ?
He answered ... the fuel quality , Keep on using 98 RON and you will never know that you ever had bearings !
I posted this already on here but was talked away I thought by Kawasaki,not sure if it was him, but he was saying that's the same fuel quality as over here,we have just other specs in the US for fuel ?
Note; my car never had something else than 98 RON and runs just perfect and hope to keep it this way !
There are moments that i'm getting out of my mind when i'm seeing all these S65's and people ending in big 5H1T ,at those moments I don't find any kind words for BMW !
So for me it's only 98 RON & EDGE ! Anyway hope future will tell more....

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by swifty

Few questions:

Is there an easy way to determine how many of these blown motors or engines with high bearing wear were supercharged? I ask this because a year ago that used to be the sentiment here but lately you can find many cars that are stock blowing their motors or have badly worn bearings.

Also do you guys think, changing xpipes or test pipes have anything to do with it?

Has anyone under warranty replaced their bearings to WPC treated ones (either by the dealer or 3rd party)? Would dealerships do it if you were willing to pay and would the warranty be still valid?

Saw on here a car built end of 2013 with only "6,700" miles on it, and was 100% stock and was never above 5K rpm... engine replacement was required !!!
So that's your answer....

[MFKN3]

Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants

I talked to the M tech guy at my (UK) dealership the other day and he said as far as he knows the S65 is about bulletproof, the dealership group he has worked for the last 16 years hasn't had to do any S65 engine replacements and he hasn't heard of other dealers doing any either. I talked to him about the failures in the USA and all he could come up with as a reason was fuel quality - octane and/or sulphur content.
Maybe a higher ambient air temp makes engine more borderline for fuel quality.
I don't think the oem oil is a factor but poor quality control of the bearing thickness might be.

There's been a few here in Australia and we have excellent fuel. I also know of someone in singapore and korea as well, and we are all relatively small M markets