MDM and melted front right brake pad :(

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by slicer

2 - You have learned that you MDM has been kicking-in and protecting you from losing control of your car - at the expense of your front brakes. That seems like a good thing to me. My goal is to have fun at the track while avoiding damage to my car. Having MDM there to help preserve the car; while still allowing lots of fun is a win/win in my book.

It's good that MDM protected him, but it's not good that it had to intervene in the first place. Yes, MDM is a great safety net -- but as I said earlier, if you want to improve your speeds and car control skills, you need to pay attention to what it's doing and adjust your driving accordingly rather than just driving the way you're used to. Sure if you don't want to learn anything and just want to go reasonably fast with reasonable confidence that you won't get into trouble, MDM can help with that, but that kind of misses the point of going to the track and learning how to drive IMHO.

Originally Posted by zcchen

Maybe I didn't get my points across clearly. Judging by my lap time and result from my NASA time trial competition in my z3m, I don't consider myself a novice who can't drive and have to rely on the car electronics to get around the track....

Prior to this event, I had thought MDM is very powerful and clever. Indeed I still believe it will help almost anyone improve their time. However, using the MDM too aggressively, which I did, could cause trouble.

You may not be a novice -- but what's equally clear is that you haven't learned to adapt your driving style (which may work fine in a Z3M) to this car, which is why MDM had to take so much action. Don't assume that you can drive your M3 the same way you drive a Z3M.

I'm not convinced that MDM will make a truly fast driver even faster; I think it's still biased more toward safety than performance, but I have no data to back that up other than my own personal experience and observations.

Originally Posted by zcchen

My logic is quite simple:
2, don't rely on MDM to go fast. In my case, I didn't need the MDM to save me, I could've saved myself; I used MDM to push harder.

If you could have saved yourself, that's great, but what would be better is driving in a way that didn't require you or MDM to save you. Using MDM to push harder is essentially sticking to poor technique and relying on MDM to correct it and make you look like a hero. If you were driving properly (and therefore truly quickly), you would see MDM intervening little to not at all. Again, keeping it as a safety net is all well and good, and perfectly understandable, but turning it on and refusing to adapt your technique based on its activity is counterproductive and slow IMHO. Yes, it might be faster than using that same technique with DSC off, but it's still nowhere near as fast as driving properly in the first place. You've got it right when you say "Don't rely on MDM to go fast."

[aus]

All I know is, I've been in a E9x M3 with an instructor who used to race a 944 against 911 Turbos and win!! She always drives with MDM on when she goes out on the instructor sessions. DSC doesn't intervene except around the big Nascar turns which always messes up BMW DSC. Other than that, it was quiet the whole session, and she was smooth as hell, but we were hauling ass.

.

[MasterP]

Originally Posted by rhouck

Absolutely not true. MDM can only work by providing a safety net -- which means it has to kick in before you really get yourself into trouble and the spin becomes irrecoverable. The fastest lap is going to include more slip than the computer will let you have, particularly on corner exit, because it has to give itself a margin of error to recover.

Can you still turn fast times with MDM on? Yes. Can you turn the fastest possible times (i.e., truly driving "properly")? No.

You're probably right. My experience with MDM is limited to the euro version. The only time I've ever had it Intervene once and that was on cold tires first session in the am.

[SenorFunkyPants]

Maybe its a mechanical issue...have the front disk temps checked after a brisk drive and see if they are similar?

[yandy]

MDM/Euro-MDM also kicks in and is extremely intrusive with square tire setups. I'm not exactly sure why, or the technical reasons. But driving with Euro-MDM and square 275 NT01 was a bit painful, kicked in almost every corner, specially short-tight corners.

He's running 275/285 so maybe it's also something to do with the amount of front grip? Good discussion here.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by yandy

MDM/Euro-MDM also kicks in and is extremely intrusive with square tire setups. I'm not exactly sure why, or the technical reasons. But driving with Euro-MDM and square 275 NT01 was a bit painful, kicked in almost every corner, specially short-tight corners.

He's running 275/285 so maybe it's also something to do with the amount of front grip? Good discussion here.

Hmm, that's actually a possibility if the difference in rolling circumference front to rear is significantly different from the stock stagger.

[SenorFunkyPants]

It is a good point but doesn't explain why only one disk pad "melted" though?

[mid-corner fun]

Originally Posted by yandy

MDM/Euro-MDM also kicks in and is extremely intrusive with square tire setups. I'm not exactly sure why, or the technical reasons. But driving with Euro-MDM and square 275 NT01 was a bit painful, kicked in almost every corner, specially short-tight corners.

He's running 275/285 so maybe it's also something to do with the amount of front grip? Good discussion here.

Good chat indeed!

The non-intrusive/invincible kick-ins are what worry me the most since there's no direct feedback to the driver, hence no chance to correct the behavior while on track.

I've laid down fast laps with no sign of traction control engaging (and no traction light blinking) only to find out later on from the Solo DL logs that EuroMDM was slightly tapping the front outer brake on specific corners. Didn't see this of course until I got to overlay video to the DL data, days after an event.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by rhouck

Absolutely not true. MDM can only work by providing a safety net -- which means it has to kick in before you really get yourself into trouble and the spin becomes irrecoverable. The fastest lap is going to include more slip than the computer will let you have, particularly on corner exit, because it has to give itself a margin of error to recover.

Can you still turn fast times with MDM on? Yes. Can you turn the fastest possible times (i.e., truly driving "properly")? No.

Many would consider me to be a stubborn user of Euro-MDM. I track a fair amount, and the vast majority of it has been with Euro-MDM on.

I agree with rhouck here. The main thing Euro-MDM does for me these days is hold back the power of the car until after the apex. My track videos include audio from a microphone near the exhaust, so it's easy to hear where I get on the gas during a corner. Many people comment that I could put up faster lap times if I got on the gas sooner in a corner. I agree with that statement, but Euro-MDM doesn't let me. That's fine.

However, I'm not molasses as a result. I can still net some good lap times. I just ran a 1:30.8 at Big Willow yesterday, and 1:57.5 a week ago at Global Time Attack at BW 13CW (good for 2nd)---all with Euro-MDM on.

Here's what cracks me up: I tell people I use MDM. They say, "MDM makes you slow." Then they see my lap times, and then they say "MDM is cheating." Ok which one is it? Am I slow? Or am I cheating? OR----am I cheating so that I can be slow? What I think it does is it gives your lap times more consistency because it can hide mistakes. And it does that in two ways, it prevents you from having power at what it considers the "wrong" places, and it can brake individual wheels of the car, which is basically like a super power. We would need four brake pedals and a bunch of feet to pull that off.

I've also driven plenty of laps now DSC-off. Yes, Ryan and Randall and Danny and Rif, there's still hope for me----maybe someday!!! I've also practiced on the skid pad. I know what goes on without DSC. But it's still not my focus. Some day that might change.

[WarrantyTracker]

Originally Posted by PrimeBMW

oh man!! That had me laughing.... still laughing. Anyone remember Junior Straus.

I thought he meant Lute.

[okusa]

Originally Posted by yandy

MDM/Euro-MDM also kicks in and is extremely intrusive with square tire setups. I'm not exactly sure why, or the technical reasons. But driving with Euro-MDM and square 275 NT01 was a bit painful, kicked in almost every corner, specially short-tight corners.

He's running 275/285 so maybe it's also something to do with the amount of front grip? Good discussion here.

Makes perfect sense. Running a square setup allows the car to rotate more. However, the primary safety net feature of MDM is keeping the rear end in one place (which is why it prevents Dogbone from putting the power down until after the apex).

[PrimeBMW]

Originally Posted by WarrantyTracker

I thought he meant Lute.

I was just laughing at the "Belgian nutter" comment. I dont know anything about Lute.

[bigjae1976]

I would be most concerned when you get into a spin or off track situation where MDM will really prevent you from controlling the car. All MDM wants to do is get the car straight and in certain cases it will MDM you straight off track. MDM is good but it ain't no human.

I think there are drivers that can be very fast with MDM but they are the rare exception rather than the rule. Most rely on MDM to save their ass when they drive beyond their capabilities. Really it comes down to skill. Why can one driver go through a turn at X MPH with no issues and another with the same or similar car will go through the turn 5mph slower and go off?

To summarize, MDM can be a useful tool which often turns into a crutch.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I would be most concerned when you get into a spin or off track situation where MDM will really prevent you from controlling the car. All MDM wants to do is get the car straight and in certain cases it will MDM you straight off track. MDM is good but it ain't no human.

I think there are drivers that can be very fast with MDM but they are the rare exception rather than the rule. Most rely on MDM to save their ass when they drive beyond their capabilities. Really it comes down to skill. Why can one driver go through a turn at X MPH with no issues and another with the same or similar car will go through the turn 5mph slower and go off?

To summarize, MDM can be a useful tool which often turns into a crutch.

Great point.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Many would consider me to be a stubborn user of Euro-MDM. I track a fair amount, and the vast majority of it has been with Euro-MDM on.

I agree with rhouck here. The main thing Euro-MDM does for me these days is hold back the power of the car until after the apex. My track videos include audio from a microphone near the exhaust, so it's easy to hear where I get on the gas during a corner. Many people comment that I could put up faster lap times if I got on the gas sooner in a corner. I agree with that statement, but Euro-MDM doesn't let me. That's fine.

However, I'm not molasses as a result. I can still net some good lap times. I just ran a 1:30.8 at Big Willow yesterday, and 1:57.5 a week ago at Global Time Attack at BW 13CW (good for 2nd)---all with Euro-MDM on.

Here's what cracks me up: I tell people I use MDM. They say, "MDM makes you slow." Then they see my lap times, and then they say "MDM is cheating." Ok which one is it? Am I slow? Or am I cheating? OR----am I cheating so that I can be slow? What I think it does is it gives your lap times more consistency because it can hide mistakes. And it does that in two ways, it prevents you from having power at what it considers the "wrong" places, and it can brake individual wheels of the car, which is basically like a super power. We would need four brake pedals and a bunch of feet to pull that off.

I've also driven plenty of laps now DSC-off. Yes, Ryan and Randall and Danny and Rif, there's still hope for me----maybe someday!!! I've also practiced on the skid pad. I know what goes on without DSC. But it's still not my focus. Some day that might change.

Welp, since Ryan rarely posts here now, Danny even less, and I've never seen Rif post here, I among the 4 named people will chime in, but am not speaking for the others obviously.

Not sure who's calling you slow, but nobody I know accuses you of being slow. You have a VF-65,000,000 S/C after all!

Seriously though, my angle to all this needling you've been receiving is, quite frankly, you're missing out on so much. On all the dynamics and sensations between you, the car, the tires, the track, etc. Much much more than what you feel in MDM mode. Can't speak for others, but who cares about lap times? If you go fast, yeah, that's great (large part of the credit goes to S/C, TD, etc, anyways). But, if you do that while enjoying all the dynamics and car control, the fun factor exponentially increases.

At Sweeper at BRP 2 weeks ago, I finally started rotating the car by lifting off the throttle (at near the end of Sweeper) so that the car suddenly lines up straight before entering the Esses. And am looking forward to trying that at other corners in upcoming events. Do you now how FUN that is? About a year or year and a half ago, Eric (1M) asked me how I rotate the car at that spot and I said "by turning the steering wheel." Hah! How sophomoric.

And the last time I was at CVR (you, JS, etc, were all there), I had so much fun trail-braking to rotate the car while entering T4 & T7 hot, dude, it's not even funny. I can't even describe how fun it was to consistently do it throughout the day.

But, I'm sure you heard it all, or jest of it. And, I'm under no illusion that you're gonna be suddenly convinced by this post by yours truly. But, I'm just sayin'...

Aside all that, with 100,000 track days you now have under your belt, you've gone a little too long on MDM. It's past the time to turn it off. Quit focusing on lap times for a while, make sure your seat situation has you sitting tight so as to feel the car slip right away, be ready to be humbled (as you'll be lapping in exploratory pace), go off a bunch of times, but I'll bet you anything, you're ready. Hell, you're past ready. Just look at JS. Look how his driving & car control just exponentially skyrocketed when he went to no-TC car. Why? Because he was ready too. And, you notice how lap times is secondary to him too? It's because driving & manipulating the car, in all its slip angle glory, is fun, first & foremost.

You'll be back on full pace sooner than you think. And, during that time, we'll be laughing behind your back going "look how slow he is." j/k

[zcchen]

So has anyone noticed uneven/inconsistent pad wear (left comparing to right) after tracking for a long time?

Of course I would melt my pads because they were stock. However, with better pads, wearing out one side faster than the other could still be a problem right?

[gan1hck]

Originally Posted by zcchen

So has anyone noticed uneven/inconsistent pad wear (left comparing to right) after tracking for a long time?

Of course I would melt my pads because they were stock. However, with better pads, wearing out one side faster than the other could still be a problem right?

I've only been going to the track for 2 years...all at the same place, Barber Motorsports Park.

More right hander's than left hander's....left tires always wears out first.

My pads have worn evenly. MDM on or off.

And my times seem about the same with it either on or off...maybe faster with it off, but I rarely time myself...mostly just trying to hit the corners right.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by OC3

Seriously though, my angle to all this needling you've been receiving is, quite frankly, you're missing out on so much. On all the dynamics and sensations between you, the car, the tires, the track, etc. Much much more than what you feel in MDM mode. Can't speak for others, but who cares about lap times? If you go fast, yeah, that's great (large part of the credit goes to S/C, TD, etc, anyways). But, if you do that while enjoying all the dynamics and car control, the fun factor exponentially increases.

When the reviews of the E9X M3 first came out, one of the things that stuck in my head was "this car rewards skill, and does so in spades". IIRC, it was Automobile. I usually write off media and auto mag reviews as full of shit.

In the case of the E9X M3...they were spot on. This car really rewards you if you can steer and drive the car with the rear wheels. You'll never get these rewards if you have MDM from any country on...unless its Asian MDM. Lap times are whatever but they will be even lower with MDM off. The E9X M3 is a car that loves to drift is really unlike every M3 before it. Quite honestly, I can't wait for the day where I can retire my E46 M3 and turn the E90 M3 into a track car.

[dogbone]

Originally Posted by OC3

I'm sure you heard it all, or jest of it. And, I'm under no illusion that you're gonna be suddenly convinced by this post by yours truly. But, I'm just sayin'...

Hey Randall.

I've always heard what you're saying. And I'm glad you're there to push me in that direction. It's all good!

The truth is, I've been on a journey to see what my max lap times can be with the car in it's current state with MDM. Maybe no one else cares, but it has been my journey. And I'm not in a hurry. This is my hobby. I don't care how long it takes me until I drive DSC-off. I've been trying to take this path to a point where I can't go any further. I think I'm close to that point at Buttonwillow…..although I'm trying like hell to get to 1:56. I know it's there….I've been in 1:56 territory through Riverside, but then I give it away. The cool weather will be ending soon, and our chances to hit new PR's will disappear. So, there's only a couple more shots at it this season. But look at what happened at Big Willow a couple days ago----new PR by 1.5 seconds, down to 1:30! That's huge. So, my journey hasn't ended yet.

You and I have talked about this topic quite a bit. You know that I've been driving a number of laps DSC-off at both Buttonwillow and Big Willow. It's all fine, but like I said, it's still not my focus. I've moved one more step closer yesterday though. I finally got another set of rims. This allows me to always have a set of RS3's around. One of the things I didn't want to do was try to learn DSC-off with R-comps. First, it's not ideal to learn DSC-off with such a high grip tire like a TD, and second it's a waste of expensive R-comps to be turning educational laps. Anyway, I haven't had enough rims to keep RS3's mounted until now. Now I have enough rims, so that I can switch to RS3's and drive DSC-off if I want. I still think that will be minimal until it gets warmer.

Bottom line: Some day I may get to DSC-off as my normal mode of tracking, but I'm not in a hurry to make it happen. There's no particular deadline I need to meet. I'm trying to explore the limits of the car in it's current state. Some day the car might have aero or be a lot lighter, so it will be in a very different state, and the times that I can achieve in it will be different. As far as missing out on things----I've only been doing this a couple years. I have plenty of time to work up to what you guys are doing. Let's be honest----you and all the guys who run DSC-off talk about crazy car control moments quite often----moments where it was hair-raising, and it almost got away from you, or it did get away from you…..that's just not why I'm out there. The more I hear those stories, the more I want to keep DSC on. For now, I like going as fast as I can and having the computer quietly watching my back.

But don't give up on me!

[OC3]

Originally Posted by dogbone

Hey Randall.

I've always heard what you're saying. And I'm glad you're there to push me in that direction. It's all good!

The truth is, I've been on a journey to see what my max lap times can be with the car in it's current state with MDM. Maybe no one else cares, but it has been my journey. And I'm not in a hurry. This is my hobby. I don't care how long it takes me until I drive DSC-off. I've been trying to take this path to a point where I can't go any further. I think I'm close to that point at Buttonwillow…..although I'm trying like hell to get to 1:56. I know it's there….I've been in 1:56 territory through Riverside, but then I give it away. The cool weather will be ending soon, and our chances to hit new PR's will disappear. So, there's only a couple more shots at it this season. But look at what happened at Big Willow a couple days ago----new PR by 1.5 seconds, down to 1:30! That's huge. So, my journey hasn't ended yet.

You and I have talked about this topic quite a bit. You know that I've been driving a number of laps DSC-off at both Buttonwillow and Big Willow. It's all fine, but like I said, it's still not my focus. I've moved one more step closer yesterday though. I finally got another set of rims. This allows me to always have a set of RS3's around. One of the things I didn't want to do was try to learn DSC-off with R-comps. First, it's not ideal to learn DSC-off with such a high grip tire like a TD, and second it's a waste of expensive R-comps to be turning educational laps. Anyway, I haven't had enough rims to keep RS3's mounted until now. Now I have enough rims, so that I can switch to RS3's and drive DSC-off if I want. I still think that will be minimal until it gets warmer.

Bottom line: Some day I may get to DSC-off as my normal mode of tracking, but I'm not in a hurry to make it happen. There's no particular deadline I need to meet. I'm trying to explore the limits of the car in it's current state. Some day the car might have aero or be a lot lighter, so it will be in a very different state, and the times that I can achieve in it will be different. As far as missing out on things----I've only been doing this a couple years. I have plenty of time to work up to what you guys are doing. Let's be honest----you and all the guys who run DSC-off talk about crazy car control moments quite often----moments where it was hair-raising, and it almost got away from you, or it did get away from you…..that's just not why I'm out there. The more I hear those stories, the more I want to keep DSC on. For now, I like going as fast as I can and having the computer quietly watching my back.

But don't give up on me!

Indeed, it's all good. As you know, we only mean well!

That journey... it potentially has no end, buddy. But, I do hear you. You're at, or beyond, the edge that MDM will typically allow and you're pushing it further for better & better PR. But, remember, when things get to certain speed and/or condition, physics takes over and no MDM or PASM or SCHMASM is going to save the situation.

Re: hair-raising moments, that must've been some of your other track buddies. I never had those, and therefore, I've never uttered anything of the sort. Hence, me: "what could happen?" you: "what COULD HAPPEN??!!!" Remember that chit-chat?

Anyhow, all I'm saying is, it's a more fuller experience. That's all.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

When the reviews of the E9X M3 first came out, one of the things that stuck in my head was "this car rewards skill, and does so in spades". IIRC, it was Automobile. I usually write off media and auto mag reviews as full of shit.

In the case of the E9X M3...they were spot on. This car really rewards you if you can steer and drive the car with the rear wheels. You'll never get these rewards if you have MDM from any country on...unless its Asian MDM. Lap times are whatever but they will be even lower with MDM off. The E9X M3 is a car that loves to drift is really unlike every M3 before it. Quite honestly, I can't wait for the day where I can retire my E46 M3 and turn the E90 M3 into a track car.

lulz

Yeah, me too (turn my E92 M3 into a stripped, caged, aero'd, stuffed-with-S85 track-beast).

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by zcchen

The guy in Texas with black m3 hooked up a motec datalogger and found out sth still grabbed individual wheel even with everything off.. He has a thread on here..

Not the case. That was Ti-Jean. His video showed that when MDM was activated, there was much more intervention than he thought. However, with DSC off, no brakes were applied without the brake pedal being depressed.

That being said, I concur with the croud that encourages driving without the electronic aids. As I have posted more than once, I have seen too many intermediate/advanced students that become decently quick with driving aids but have developped very bad habits because of them. The longer one waits to turn off the aids, the longer it will take to un-learn the bad habits.

I had Euro MDM coded last summer and decided to try it out on a dry track. I found it kicked in way too much, especially when trying to position the car with the throttle. Sure, I could slow the pace to avoid MDM intervention and be decently quick, but I am faster and have more control over the car with MDM off. I even started to lose some brakes after about 15 minutes in the session. After turning DSC off, the brakes came back (in the same session without slowing down).

I still use MDM as a sefety net on a very wet track (the M-Diff can play nasty tricks in water puddles) or on the first few laps of the day while exploring the track. It is a tool that can be used when needed. But I firmly believe one should never rely on it to be quick.