R-Comps and Factory Camber

[M3Captain]

I'm planning on a few HPDE's this year.... (work always getting in the way of racing lol) and I've been doing a lot of reading about camber.

I plan on running 275 square. Is the factory camber enough from cording a set of R-comps? I know lots of recommended camber plates, just don't think its necessary for a few days a year.

Thanks!

[warp10]

Just get the camber plated pins pulled and you will get closer to -2 camber than with them in. Put camber plates will pay for them self in the long run in tire wear.

[USCTrojanMan29]

Pick up some NT01s.

[zamboni1]

It's not so much the camber that is going to be the issue with running R-comps. They will just wear out fast. If you haven't done some mods to your brakes, they're just not going to hold up with those tires.
Get some RE-11s or AD08s until your ready to make the brake and suspension mods to handle the grip of R-comps.

[zamboni1]

And pull the pins. The car will handle a little better anyway.

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by zamboni1

And pull the pins. The car will handle a little better anyway.

i pulled the pins on mine and my neg camber is around -1.7....with that said i have bee running 275 nto1 squared.... so far my only concern is how hot the side walls have been getting. but other then that its been great!!!!!!!!

[M3Captain]

Originally Posted by zamboni1

It's not so much the camber that is going to be the issue with running R-comps. They will just wear out fast. If you haven't done some mods to your brakes, they're just not going to hold up with those tires.
Get some RE-11s or AD08s until your ready to make the brake and suspension mods to handle the grip of R-comps.

I plan on flushing with good fluid and a dedicated track pad.

[1MOREMOD]

what tire are you talking about. i would think any r-comp is gonna want more camber than pulling the pins can offer. if you are going to go to that trouble just pick up the vorshlag camber plates and set it at a compromise -2.5 or so and should be good for track and not horrible on the street. i dont know this for the e9x but my guess is the more aggresive the tire is the more you will be able to cause camber change in turns, ie extra grip, meaning you need more camber to keep dynamic camber change in check as you get better and better tires.

[jphughan]

OP are you new to the track entirely or just new to it in this car? R-Comps definitely want more camber unless you want to shorten their already limited life. -2.5 is a good street/track compromise, but pulling pins only seems to get you to around -1.6, so you will very likely need camber plates. And yes they will pay for themselves in tire savings even with only a few track days per year. I got them even though I only do 6-8 days per year because before I got them I corded my front PSSes after 6 track days and 7500 total miles. An R-comp would probably be worse.

But if you're new to the track entirely, you absolutely do not want to start with R-comps, and in fact most organizers forbid them until you reach an advanced run group. And even in the advanced run groups there are still several people still on PSSes, myself included.

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

what tire are you talking about. i would think any r-comp is gonna want more camber than pulling the pins can offer. if you are going to go to that trouble just pick up the vorshlag camber plates and set it at a compromise -2.5 or so and should be good for track and not horrible on the street. i dont know this for the e9x but my guess is the more aggresive the tire is the more you will be able to cause camber change in turns, ie extra grip, meaning you need more camber to keep dynamic camber change in check as you get better and better tires.

i think the big thing is camber plates are 600+ and for op that might be alot to start with....new susp is deff on my list along with camber plates but for me i cant spend the extra on top of everything i got going on... personally just bought brand new f/r bbk and now need t buy comp pads for it so camber plates are not in the picture yet...

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by Sebringjetta

i think the big thing is camber plates are 600+ and for op that might be alot to start with....new susp is deff on my list along with camber plates but for me i cant spend the extra on top of everything i got going on... personally just bought brand new f/r bbk and now need t buy comp pads for it so camber plates are not in the picture yet...

But then that means him and you will be wasting money on tires instead of camber plates.

[M3Captain]

Originally Posted by jphughan

OP are you new to the track entirely or just new to it in this car? R-Comps definitely want more camber unless you want to shorten their already limited life. -2.5 is a good street/track compromise, but pulling pins only seems to get you to around -1.6, so you will very likely need camber plates. And yes they will pay for themselves in tire savings even with only a few track days per year. I got them even though I only do 6-8 days per year because before I got them I corded my front PSSes after 6 track days and 7500 total miles. An R-comp would probably be worse.

But if you're new to the track entirely, you absolutely do not want to start with R-comps, and in fact most organizers forbid them until you reach an advanced run group. And even in the advanced run groups there are still several people still on PSSes, myself included.

I'm new to HPDE's but I don't wanna run on my continentals and destroy them. I'd rather spend some cash and get r-comps for the track.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what is a good compromise for street / track camber. I have access to a hunter alignment rack whenever I just don't want to setup the car for the track every time for only a few days a year.

I bought a set of springs and now some are suggesting vorschlag, I'd love to get a set of kw's and call it a day but I'd rather spend the money on a bbk down the road. I guess I could spend 5-10k setting up the car for a few hpde's but its just not worth it.

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

But then that means him and you will be wasting money on tires instead of camber plates.

i have ran 3 days on my nto1 and have not seen any abnormal wear...but i do have a friend who runs quite a bit of camber and he is constantly flipping his tires because of camber wear....


time will tell i guess..

[gan1hck]

Originally Posted by M3Captain

I'm new to HPDE's but I don't wanna run on my continentals and destroy them. I'd rather spend some cash and get r-comps for the track.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is what is a good compromise for street / track camber. I have access to a hunter alignment rack whenever I just don't want to setup the car for the track every time for only a few days a year.

I bought a set of springs and now some are suggesting vorschlag, I'd love to get a set of kw's and call it a day but I'd rather spend the money on a bbk down the road. I guess I could spend 5-10k setting up the car for a few hpde's but its just not worth it.

I'm thinking track pads and fluids are all you need if you haven't been to the track before.

Perhaps a second set of wheels for a separate set of street tires will be more useful than track only tires.

Just my 1/2 a cents worth of opinion.

[M3Captain]

Originally Posted by gan1hck

I'm thinking track pads and fluids are all you need if you haven't been to the track before.

Perhaps a second set of wheels for a separate set of street tires will be more useful than track only tires.

Just my 1/2 a cents worth of opinion.

Thanks guys... so maybe like a AD08 or PSS cup? For this year and factory camber?

[1MOREMOD]

Or rs3, your tire wear will show you when your quick enough to need more camber. Once you are wearing the outer edges excessively you will need more camber and probably a tire like nt01. Then its slippery slope time to bbk, r-comps, race seats, and on and on.

[yandy]

I ran 275/35/18 yesterday for the first time, stock suspension with pins pulled (about -1.7 to -1.8) camber. I can already see signs of the tire being worn on the outside.

Since I can't spring for a full coil-over yet, I will be getting Vorshlags for now. I will not risk another day without proper camber on those tires. Besides the fact that proper camber helps turn in and corner stability as well, not just tire wear.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by M3Captain

Thanks guys... so maybe like a AD08 or PSS cup? For this year and factory camber?

PS Cup is also an R-Comp tire. RS3, AD08 R, or RE-11As would be your best bet if you insist on something extra sticky. They all have their pros and cons. But R-comps are definitely not appropriate for someone brand new to HPDEs for a bunch of reasons. First, they let you get away with poor technique, covering up mistakes and thus making it harder to learn proper technique. You could argue that DSC/MDM does the same thing, but at least that's more obvious since you typically have a flashing light and can feel the car taking action, plus it's about safety rather than speed. Second, R-comps don't provide the audio feedback that street tires do when they're on their limit; they just stay silent, so when you're new to HPDEs you don't get a sense of what your tires' capabilities are and when you're about to exceed them. And lastly, when they finally do break away, they often do so much more abruptly than street tires, so if you're still at a level where you're reacting to the car's behavior rather than predicting it, on an R-comp by the time you realize something is going wrong it will already be too late to fix it. All of that is why as I said, R-comps are often banned in novice and intermediate run groups.

I personally run my street tires (PSSes) on both road and track, and now that I've got my camber set up, they're not getting destroyed just because they see track time -- and I'm doing more than just a few days per year running them much harder than you'll be at least initially. I agree with the above recommendations that you start with just brake fluid, maybe brake pads (Stoptech Street Performance are a great combo pad especially for beginners), and the camber plates set to -2.5 to reduce excessive outer tire wear. Other than that, I think you'll find that your car even on its street tires has vastly more to give than you'll be able to extract from it for quite a while, which would become blatantly obvious if you ask your instructor to drive your car at speed with you riding along. That incidentally is a fantastic cure for the "I'd be so much faster if I had [insert mod here]" syndrome.

I'd even recommend against jumping straight to a dedicated track pad like you're contemplating because they make it much harder to drive smoothly, which is one of the first things you need to learn before you can really make progress as a driver. I upgraded from the aforementioned Stoptech pads to race pads only after I got into the advanced run group, and even then it's taken me 8 track days with them to regain my braking smoothness. Dedicated pads are a non-trivial upgrade.

Bottom line: R-comps are absolutely not a requirement for the track. Many advanced students and instructors don't run them for various reasons (running cost being one of them), and they would be a hindrance for a beginner even if you were allowed to use them. Your street tires will easily be able to stand up to what you're able to do with them on the track as a beginner (especially if you upgrade them to PSSes which you might enjoy over your Contis all around anyway). And overall, there's a process that people have to go through to become good, fast drivers, and there are no shortcuts. Getting all of the go-fast mods upfront will only make it harder for you to learn -- and cost you more money. Start by learning how to drive what you already have, which is a LOT considering you have an M3 and are a total beginner. Then build from there as needed.

[M3Captain]

Originally Posted by jphughan

PS Cup is also an R-Comp tire. RS3, AD08 R, or RE-11As would be your best bet if you insist on something extra sticky. They all have their pros and cons. But R-comps are definitely not appropriate for someone brand new to HPDEs for a bunch of reasons. First, they let you get away with poor technique, covering up mistakes and thus making it harder to learn proper technique. You could argue that DSC/MDM does the same thing, but at least that's more obvious since you typically have a flashing light and can feel the car taking action, plus it's about safety rather than speed. Second, R-comps don't provide the audio feedback that street tires do when they're on their limit; they just stay silent, so when you're new to HPDEs you don't get a sense of what your tires' capabilities are and when you're about to exceed them. And lastly, when they finally do break away, they often do so much more abruptly than street tires, so if you're still at a level where you're reacting to the car's behavior rather than predicting it, on an R-comp by the time you realize something is going wrong it will already be too late to fix it. All of that is why as I said, R-comps are often banned in novice and intermediate run groups.

I personally run my street tires (PSSes) on both road and track, and now that I've got my camber set up, they're not getting destroyed just because they see track time -- and I'm doing more than just a few days per year running them much harder than you'll be at least initially. I agree with the above recommendations that you start with just brake fluid, maybe brake pads (Stoptech Street Performance are a great combo pad especially for beginners), and the camber plates set to -2.5 to reduce excessive outer tire wear. Other than that, I think you'll find that your car even on its street tires has vastly more to give than you'll be able to extract from it for quite a while, which would become blatantly obvious if you ask your instructor to drive your car at speed with you riding along. That incidentally is a fantastic cure for the "I'd be so much faster if I had [insert mod here]" syndrome.

I'd even recommend against jumping straight to a dedicated track pad like you're contemplating because they make it much harder to drive smoothly, which is one of the first things you need to learn before you can really make progress as a driver. I upgraded from the aforementioned Stoptech pads to race pads only after I got into the advanced run group, and even then it's taken me 8 track days with them to regain my braking smoothness. Dedicated pads are a non-trivial upgrade.

Bottom line: R-comps are absolutely not a requirement for the track. Many advanced students and instructors don't run them for various reasons (running cost being one of them), and they would be a hindrance for a beginner even if you were allowed to use them. Your street tires will easily be able to stand up to what you're able to do with them on the track as a beginner (especially if you upgrade them to PSSes which you might enjoy over your Contis all around anyway). And overall, there's a process that people have to go through to become good, fast drivers, and there are no shortcuts. Getting all of the go-fast mods upfront will only make it harder for you to learn -- and cost you more money. Start by learning how to drive what you already have, which is a LOT considering you have an M3 and are a total beginner. Then build from there as needed.

Thanks for the insight. I never ran an HPDE with my previous m3 because it was a lease and didn't wanna be bothered. I guess what most are saying is just get a set of camber plates and go to the track.

I guess my question is that is -2.5F Camber too much for the street? Also what about the rear camber? I take it that the plates are for the front.

I'm sure ill want to run more HPDE's if thats the case I'll get a track toy.

[zamboni1]

Maybe look at Dinan fixed mount camber plates ($250). They add about .7 degrees of negative camber. I you pull the pins you should be able to get about -2.3-2.4 degrees. When you adjust the strut mounts all the way back out for the street. You should have about -.9-1.0 degrees. This is totally acceptable to drive with on the street, and you will not see abnormal tire wear.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by M3Captain

Thanks for the insight. I never ran an HPDE with my previous m3 because it was a lease and didn't wanna be bothered. I guess what most are saying is just get a set of camber plates and go to the track.

I guess my question is that is -2.5F Camber too much for the street? Also what about the rear camber? I take it that the plates are for the front.

I'm sure ill want to run more HPDE's if thats the case I'll get a track toy.

-2.5 is a good setting if you'll be doing 6-8 track days per year. If you'll be doing less, maybe -2.3 (where I started) would be better. Ultimately there's no way to know the perfect setting in advance because it depends on your driving style (which is only partly related to your driving skill), the tracks you run, how many track days you do, and your ratio of road miles to track days. The best you can do is start somewhere reasonable and make adjustments based on how your tires wear.

Camber plates are for the front only. As for rear camber, the stock setup allows a pretty wide range of adjustment, and I'll be reducing my rear camber to -1.65 or so because I've now worn the insides of two sets of rear tires prematurely -- but again I do a fair amount of track days. I'd leave the rear in its stock alignment settings and again, see what your tire wear tells you and adjust accordingly. But if you'll only be doing 4 or fewer track days per year on your street tires, I doubt you'd really notice the impact on your street tires.

One other thing to keep in mind with camber plates. -2.5 is a good combo setting if you'll be running the same tires in both areas. If you'll be switching street and track tires, -2.5 could wear the insides of your street tires early and (possibly) the outsides of your track tires early. If you'll be swapping street and track tires, this is where the fact that camber plates are adjustable can work to your advantage. If you have an alignment shop mark the plates at two different settings (one for street, one for track), you can change them as needed assuming you have the proper tools to do so. However, be aware that toe changes with camber, so you'll have to find a baseline alignment setup and pair of plate settings for road and track where both camber AND toe are reasonable for their respective intended purposes.

Or you could just run the camber plates in a static setting and keep things simple by running a single set of PSSes on both road and track. I'm guessing that's sounding more and more appealing.

[M3Captain]

Originally Posted by jphughan

-2.5 is a good setting if you'll be doing 6-8 track days per year. If you'll be doing less, maybe -2.3 (where I started) would be better. Ultimately there's no way to know the perfect setting in advance because it depends on your driving style (which is only partly related to your driving skill), the tracks you run, how many track days you do, and your ratio of road miles to track days. The best you can do is start somewhere reasonable and make adjustments based on how your tires wear.

Camber plates are for the front only. As for rear camber, the stock setup allows a pretty wide range of adjustment, and I'll be reducing my rear camber to -1.65 or so because I've now worn the insides of two sets of rear tires prematurely -- but again I do a fair amount of track days. I'd leave the rear in its stock alignment settings and again, see what your tire wear tells you and adjust accordingly. But if you'll only be doing 4 or fewer track days per year on your street tires, I doubt you'd really notice the impact on your street tires.

One other thing to keep in mind with camber plates. -2.5 is a good combo setting if you'll be running the same tires in both areas. If you'll be switching street and track tires, -2.5 could wear the insides of your street tires early and (possibly) the outsides of your track tires early. If you'll be swapping street and track tires, this is where the fact that camber plates are adjustable can work to your advantage. If you have an alignment shop mark the plates at two different settings (one for street, one for track), you can change them as needed assuming you have the proper tools to do so. However, be aware that toe changes with camber, so you'll have to find a baseline alignment setup and pair of plate settings for road and track where both camber AND toe are reasonable for their respective intended purposes.

Or you could just run the camber plates in a static setting and keep things simple by running a single set of PSSes on both road and track. I'm guessing that's sounding more and more appealing.

I know there are many variables, just looking for a starting point. Thanks for the insight.