Advice needed: HPDE setup

[beats]

Hey guys, I'm looking to get my car setup a little better for HPDE events this year and looking for input...

I did 2 HPDE weekends last year. I have spent some other time on the track, but nothing notable. I ran in the beginner groups last year, but will be running intermediate this year.

I have 2011 E92 M3 ZCP with EDC. I have test pipes and a stage 2 tune. Otherwise, the car is pretty much stock. I am still running the stock Michelin Pilot Sports. When I need new tires, I was planning on going to Super Sports. I don't think I need anything more than that yet (ie R-comp's), and don't plan on buying a set of dedicated track wheels.

This car is my daily driver, but I plan on taking it to 6 HPDE weekends this year. 4 of these will be at Mosport (outside of Toronto), another at Watkins and the last Calabogie. Mosport is a fast track, and doesn't seem to hard on the brakes, at least not yet... I haven't driven the other 2 tracks yet.

I plan on buying some camber plates to help save my tires, and was leaning towards the Vorshlag setup. Again, as this is a daily driver NVH is a concern, but with my stock suspension (and no immediate plans to upgrade) I hope the Vorshlag plates should be quiet enough while still allowing some good camber adjustment.

Aside from the brake fluid change before the season, the only other change I was considering was pads. My hope is to run one set of pads, for street and track, however I understand there will be compromise if I do this. I was thinking of using the Stoptech Street Performance, but if I can get away with something with more fade resistance without much in the way of downside I would be interested. I have also had EBC Greenstuff recommended, but I don't know that they would be much better than my stock setup. Are there any 'track pads' that work ok on the street? I have read good things about PFC-06, XP-10, RS19 or Yellow stuff. The HDC-60's are maybe a little too hard on rotors for me...

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

[jphughan]

Wow, this is like looking into my recent past! As someone who did about 4 track weekends per year in the intermediate group on my M3 that's also my DD and was using StopTech Street Performance pads, Vorshlag camber plates, and PSSes, I think you've got a perfect plan! It worked very well for me, and the only things I've changed now that I'm in the advanced group are adding a front BBK and using race pads on the front axle when on track (StopTechs stay in the rear full-time). I'm still using the PSSes though since I feel I can learn a lot more by working on maximizing control of the grip I have rather than just adding more. If I do step up at some point I would likely do something like an AD08 R or BFGoodrich Rival before going to an actual R-comp like NT01, especially since I've only got so many dollars to spend on my track habit, so I have to decide whether I'd have more fun spending money on stickier tires to go faster or stick with less aggressive tires and instead spend money on going to the track more often. I have a feeling I'd choose the latter.

The Vorshlag camber plates make absolutely no noise as long as your installer pulses the strut stem top nut with an air impact gun; Vorshlag's instructions are explicit about that, because otherwise they WILL make noise (and put excessive wear on the spherical bearing). Note that that should ONLY be done to the top nut on each strut stem, NOT the 3 nuts around each side of the strut brace that are loosened to make camber adjustments, all of which only require tightening with hand tools to about 20 lb-ft. Align for -2.5 camber and 1/16" toe-in (total) and call it a day. Another perk of Vorshlag's setup that may not be true of others is that they don't alter the stock ride height, FYI. I've also attached my version of Vorshlag's installation guide to this post if you want to give it to your installer. It's just Vorshlag's online guide reformatted for printing and with some additional minor clarifications and emphasis.

The StopTech pads are as good a combo setup as you'll find -- absolutely like OEM on the street and they resist fade far longer than stock on the track, with the additional major benefit of not leaving you with uneven pad deposits after a single weekend that mess up your rotors after and leave you with severe steering wheel vibration under medium braking on the road. Ask me how I know the OEM pads do that....

For race pads, none of them will be pleasant on the street; they're loud especially when braking at low speeds, often don't bite well cold, and will accelerate your rotor wear, so stick with StopTech until you're ready to swap pads for track weekends. When you're ready for that though, PFC and Pagid are the most popular choices on our cars. Fyi, the "Yellow" and "RS19" you mention are basically two names for the same Pagid product. The Pagid Yellow lineup consists of the RS19 and RS29; people with more experience with Pagid stuff can probably tell you more about the differences between the two.

Between Pagid and PFC, both have a strong following. However, even the Pagid fans acknowledge that Pagids are picky about being bedded in properly, whereas PFCs are basically plug and play, which is why I like them since I'm swapping pads on my front rotors. I use the PFC 08 compound (the replacement for the 06 you mentioned) because they apparently give 90% of the bite of the famous 01s but last 2-3x as long and are far gentler on rotors -- and cost the same as 01s. I'll give up some absolute bite for those benefits any day, especially since even the 08s are a bit overkill on PSSes because brake bite isn't the stopping bottleneck anymore. But I'd hold off on race pads if you can, unless you're going to a track that's notoriously hard on brakes. They are a MAJOR change. After I switched to race pads I lost much of the braking smoothness I'd developed (especially on brake release) and only after 3 weekends on them am I finally starting to get some of it back as I retrain my foot. Race pads definitely make it harder to be smooth, hence my recommendation to wait and continue working on your fundamentals more if you can.

In terms of other race pad options, Hawks chew through rotors like nobody's business, so I personally avoid them. I don't recall people running Carbotech XP pads on our cars since they seem to be designed for lighter cars (which is why they're popular on Corvettes), and I'm not familiar with the HDC-60 option you mentioned.

Oh yeah, one more change I just made: 255/35/19 front tires. The story there is that back before I even had camber plates, I corded the outsides of both of my front tires after 3 track weekends (and about 7500 total miles). The camber plates were installed and initially set to -2.3 camber, and after 3 weekends on new front tires they still looked good. But then halfway through Sunday on my fourth weekend, I chunked the outside of one of my front tires. So now I'm at -2.5 camber, and I'm hoping that that change plus the extra rubber will further protect the outer sidewall and also dial out some understeer (since I'm keeping the stock rear tire size). My first track event with that setup is this coming weekend.

And lastly, if you haven't already read enough, I actually wrote a two-part article for my local BMW CCA chapter's newsletter covering what I've learned and done with my car over the course of my track addiction, which I've attached to this post.

Hopefully this helped, and good luck!

[PrimeBMW]

By 6 weekends do you mean 12 days? If 12 days you should pick up quite a bit of speed in that time. You perception of what is needed for a HPDE may change by the end of the season.
That said I think you have a pretty good handle on what is needed. The only thing I would ask you to think about is tires. PS2 or PSS are great street tires but the soft side wall and pressure delta from cold to hot make them less than ideal for 20-30 minute sessions if pushed hard. The issue is that you start with low pressure to avoid going over 40 psi hot. Side wall is soft for first 4 laps, then its in a sweet spot for 3-4 laps, then too much pressure and the tire is greasy and can snap. If I had to do if over I would go with a AD-08R or the like as my second tire. It has a stiffer side wall and will stay more consistent throughout the session.
Something to think about.........

[slicer]

I'm not a track pro so take that into consideration (two weekends so far on my E92). I started to track my old 996 C2 and the engine failed (POS Motor) so I have been limiting my track time - aka I don't want to make it my primary hobby due to the high potential cost. Surfing and biking are far cheaper.... . Enough about me.

I think you are hitting the most important points with your plan but I would add a few thoughts.

1- coilovers make a huge difference with this car. I can't tell you how much more fun the car is on the track with a proper suspension. KW Clubsports come with camber plates and are a proven package. I also find them to be great on the street.

2- I would encourage you to get a separate set of track wheels and tires. Track time is very hard on tires leaves them with new rubber deposites and abnormal wear. Your street driving on the tires will often include new vibrations and poor wet performance. In addition you don't need to jump to R-comps as ultimate performance tires handle the heat on the track well (or at least far better than a Michelin PSS or PS2). I would argue that you will save money by buying a separate track set. The track and street tires will each last longer and you won't have to deal with the issues I noted above. Plus you will be able to get home if a wheel or tire is damaged on the track. Buy the wheels used for the right price and you will be able to get most of your money out of them when you are done.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by slicer

I'm not a track pro so take that into consideration (two weekends so far on my E92). I started to track my old 996 C2 and the engine failed (POS Motor) so I have been limiting my track time - aka I don't want to make it my primary hobby due to the high potential cost. Surfing and biking are far cheaper.... . Enough about me.

I think you are hitting the most important points with your plan but I would add a few thoughts.

1- coilovers make a huge difference with this car. I can't tell you how much more fun the car is on the track with a proper suspension. KW Clubsports come with camber plates and are a proven package. I also find them to be great on the street.

2- I would encourage you to get a separate set of track wheels and tires. Track time is very hard on tires leaves them with new rubber deposites and abnormal wear. Your street driving on the tires will often include new vibrations and poor wet performance. In addition you don't need to jump to R-comps as ultimate performance tires handle the heat on the track well (or at least far better than a Michelin PSS or PS2). I would argue that you will save money by buying a separate track set. The track and street tires will each last longer and you won't have to deal with the issues I noted above. Plus you will be able to get home if a wheel or tire is damaged on the track. Buy the wheels used for the right price and you will be able to get most of your money out of them when you are done.

Wow, 2 weekends and you're already running KW Clubsports?? If your car had EDC before you installed the Clubsports, can you say which EDC mode the coilovers most closely resemble when just driving on the road? I understand it won't be an exact comparison because EDC is an active suspension, but for example I find Sport mode way too harsh to be reasonable on public roads and even tracks that have significant elevation changes. Coilovers are sort of on my radar, but I have to keep reminding myself that I only do this 4 weekends per year, so thus far I've been limiting myself to mods that don't change how my car feels on the road.

[slicer]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Wow, 2 weekends and you're already running KW Clubsports?? If your car had EDC before you installed the Clubsports, can you say which EDC mode the coilovers most closely resemble when just driving on the road? I understand it won't be an exact comparison because EDC is an active suspension, but for example I find Sport mode way too harsh to be reasonable on public roads and even tracks that have significant elevation changes. Coilovers are sort of on my radar, but I have to keep reminding myself that I only do this 4 weekends per year, so thus far I've been limiting myself to mods that don't change how my car feels on the road.

Two weekends on my E92... I have been to the track with another car. I love the clubsports just as much on the street as the track. I would opt for this suspension even if I didn't plan to track the car. It's that much of an improvement. I have done lowering springs in the past and thought that they were OK. My first M3 had EDC so I opted for Eibach lowering springs but honestly I think that EDC is useless. I didn't find myself using the different settings (kept them in middle setting). I ordered my second M3 without EDC so that I could easily install coilovers. As you know, proper coilovers allow you to tune the ride to your liking - in other words they can be tuned to mimic whichever EDC mode you prefer. I keep them relatively soft for the street and stiffen them for track use. I found the ride quality to be better than OEM after the coilovers were installed. It's a fallacy that coilovers automatically result in a harsh ride (Assuming a quality coilover that isn't slammed so low that it has no more suspension travel).

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by slicer

Two weekends on my E92... I have been to the track with another car. I love the clubsports just as much on the street as the track. I would opt for this suspension even if I didn't plan to track the car. It's that much of an improvement. I have done lowering springs in the past and thought that they were OK. My first M3 had EDC so I opted for Eibach lowering springs but honestly I think that EDC is useless. I didn't find myself using the different settings. I ordered my second M3 without EDC so that I could easily install coilovers. As you know, proper coilovers allow you to tune the ride to your liking - in other words they can be tuned to mimic whichever EDC mode you prefer. I keep them relatively soft for the street and stiffen them for track use. I found the ride quality to be better than OEM after the coilovers were installed. It's a fallacy that coilovers automatically result in a harsh ride (Assuming a quality coilover that isn't slammed so low that it has no more suspension travel).

Thanks! I use EDC Comfort on the road and Normal for back roads and the tracks I drive, but Normal feels good enough on the road that if that was the only setting available, I would probably be fine never changing it too (Comfort is too soft for back roads though). Good breakdown on the KW CS feel. Maybe I'll have to look into them at some point after all then....slippery slope!

[slicer]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Thanks! I use EDC Comfort on the road and Normal for back roads and the tracks I drive, but Normal feels good enough on the road that if that was the only setting available, I would probably be fine never changing it too (Comfort is too soft for back roads though). Good breakdown on the KW CS feel. Maybe I'll have to look into them at some point after all then....slippery slope!

I hear you. Don't get me wrong, the M3 has a solid OEM suspension. I have just gained a huge appreciation for both the car and KW clubsports after tracking it and having the opportunity to drive the car with OEM EDC, OEM Non-EDC, OEM EDC with Eibach Springs, and KW Clubsport 3-way coilovers.

[JonnyTrauma]

Bare minimum:
Track brake pads/fluid
Better tires would be ideal
Check tire pressure religiously
Change fluids often
Harnesses can't hurt

Once you learn to go fast:
R comps 275 squared
Coilovers/camber plates/alignment

[JonnyTrauma]

Originally Posted by slicer

1- coilovers make a huge difference with this car. I can't tell you how much more fun the car is on the track with a proper suspension. KW Clubsports come with camber plates and are a proven package. I also find them to be great on the street.

2- I would encourage you to get a separate set of track wheels and tires. Track time is very hard on tires leaves them with new rubber deposites and abnormal wear. Your street driving on the tires will often include new vibrations and poor wet performance. In addition you don't need to jump to R-comps as ultimate performance tires handle the heat on the track well (or at least far better than a Michelin PSS or PS2). I would argue that you will save money by buying a separate track set. The track and street tires will each last longer and you won't have to deal with the issues I noted above. Plus you will be able to get home if a wheel or tire is damaged on the track. Buy the wheels used for the right price and you will be able to get most of your money out of them when you are done.

Nailed it

[beats]

Hey guys, with regards to track wheels, I agree it is a good idea, but I think I'm going to try and hold off a bit until my skill level climbs a bit more.. Hopefully by the end of the year I will be running the Michelin's a little harder, and find more benefit to going to something like the AD08R. Last year I came across a lot of 'trains' on the track, which was largely due to the beginner group I was running in. This had the benefit of cooling my tires and brakes while I waited to pass other drivers.. In the intermediate groups, the pace will obviously pick up, so my tires will definitely get pushed more.

I used to have a set of BBS RGR 18's which I have regretted selling ever since. They would have been awesome track wheels. In the event I do come across some cheap track wheels, are 18's ideal for the track (for weight and cost savings)? And square setup is ideal I guess?

I'm hoping to hold off doing too much more suspension work (after the camber plates). My little track hobby is going to require another job to finance it soon. Plus, my wife has been accepting of these extra expenses so far, but I don't want to push too far...

And yes, 6 weeekends, so 12 days. Can't wait!! First one is only 2 months away!!

Thanks for the feedback guys.

[1MOREMOD]

yes 18s are ideal for your car. 18x10 with a 275-35 all the way around. you will be getting faster in a hurry and each time you buy new tires a step up may be in order. the camber plates will help but once your high end of intermediate even ad08s and such will want to roll over on you. i couldn't stop the outer edge from wearing past the arrows despite -2.5 camber. problem went away with nt01s. i took a stepped approach to my progress rather than jumping into full race set up off the bat. gives you time to learn along the way as you progress and get the parts you need as the ones you have aren't up to your level anymore. you will outdrive your brakes, suspension, tires all at some point and need to refine your set up. if you change one thing another area may appear as a weak spot and need addressing as well. it is indeed a costly endeavor.

[bigjae1976]

I'd just do camber plates and same size wheels/tires on all 4 corners. Then learn how to steer with your right foot.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I'd just do camber plates and same size wheels/tires on all 4 corners. Then learn how to steer with your right foot.

when i do that sometimes my foot gets caught in the wheel and i go off.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

when i do that sometimes my foot gets caught in the wheel and i go off.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I'd just do camber plates and same size wheels/tires on all 4 corners. Then learn how to steer with your right foot.

i have also tried mental telepathy to steer the car to poor results.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

when i do that sometimes my foot gets caught in the wheel and i go off.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

oh you don't practice what if scenarios like losing your arms? guess I'm more advanced than you thought.

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

oh you don't practice what if scenarios like losing your arms? guess I'm more advanced than you thought.

I've only practiced losing one arm...not both. Looks like I've got some work to do on my knee drifting technique...pass me at your own risk.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I've only practiced losing one arm...not both. Looks like I've got some work to do on my knee drifting technique...pass me at your own risk.

things get busy in a hurry trying to steer with your teeth, clutch with one foot and shifter with the other.

[Sleeper519]

^

you two owe me another cup of coffee cause the one I was drinking just came out my nose from laughing so hard. (Starbucks would be fine)

[Sleeper519]

Lots of good feedback here.

OP, I totally get your wanting to do this in increments, and keep it budget-reasonable. A good start would be brake fluid upgrade, track pads, and the camber plates. You can have great times in this car at HPDEs with just these. Tires/wheels would come down the line as you progress, then maybe coils.

I would strongly encourage you (and everyone) to learn how to change your brake pads!! It is a super easy DIY and will save you money and spare you from DDing with the noisy, rotor-eating race pads on. And you will really appreciate them on the track. All you really need to buy is a lightweight jack and a couple of wrenches. Get a friend to help get you started....