ESS 550 Kit.. Tuned by Mike Benvo

[Hujan]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

On the subject of tuners tuning other tuners hardware it is a very tricky and indeed difficult subject.

We tuned a few supercharged kits which were not our own.

It wasn't the best of ideas. One the manufacturers called us to speak about it in a very civil way. They had no issue us tuning the cars but did politely ask we did not allow this to be seen in the open. It makes the manufacturer look bad and really does lead to bad feelings.
Also, the instant accusation of simply making small tweaks to someone else's fully developed work come about which also implies copying. Again, more negativity.

The fact is that there will only be a handful of people who will be willing to get their kits tuned by anyone other than the manufacturer. So the very very few individuals there will be are simply not worth the hassle and money in relation to the amount of negativity created.

Overall it's considered to be not the best move in our industry and extremely disliked when it is plastered all over forums.

If a tuner must tune a car for even the right reasons every effort should be made to keep it all private.

Our current protocol is to try our very best to send the customer back to the manufacturer and maybe ask them to do what ever it is they want done.

We did not like our experience of retuning other manufacturers' FI cars and really now try to avoid it as much as possible.

We are doing some cars now but they are so well outside of the envelope of the original manufacturers specification (pulleys, injectors, intercooler cores) that it's then like a totally custom job. Even then, you will hardly ever find any of these owners posting on forums because we specify this before sending an invoice.

So, basically, a competitor called to ask that you take it easy on them, lest their shortcomings be made public?

It sounds like complete cowardice on the part of the tuner that called you guys.
If they were confident in their work, they would say, "Take your best shot."

[oldmarco]

Originally Posted by RJM3

OP,

Would you mind sharing how the bench flow test of the injectors was done? I am sure if Mike did it he probably shared with you information and perhaps some pictures on how it was done? It would be great for the rest of us to know.

I've seen bench flow injector testing in the past and I believe the equipment to have it done properly costs thousands of dollars.

Like Sal earlier said its not a simple task so I am curious how it was done.

You are correct, the proper equipment to perform bench flow injector tests does cost thousands of dollars, but no where did anyone claim Mike Benvo or BPM Sport performed these tests in-house.

Did anyone care to think he may have outsourced this service to a professional shop who specializes in that service?

A long-term client of Mike's contacted him in regards to tuning a supercharger system he purchased. What's the issue with that?

When someone purchases a supercharger, they don't agree to only utilize the manufacturer's software. All they did was agree to buy the supercharger hardware, that's it!

We all have personal preferences, and the OP's preference is clearly BPM Sport. So please stop slandering Mike and his company with false information and ridiculous accusations.

Thanks,
Marco

[oldmarco]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

On the subject of tuners tuning other tuners hardware it is a very tricky and indeed difficult subject.

We tuned a few supercharged kits which were not our own.

It wasn't the best of ideas. One the manufacturers called us to speak about it in a very civil way. They had no issue us tuning the cars but did politely ask we did not allow this to be seen in the open. It makes the manufacturer look bad and really does lead to bad feelings.
Also, the instant accusation of simply making small tweaks to someone else's fully developed work come about which also implies copying. Again, more negativity.

The fact is that there will only be a handful of people who will be willing to get their kits tuned by anyone other than the manufacturer. So the very very few individuals there will be are simply not worth the hassle and money in relation to the amount of negativity created.

Overall it's considered to be not the best move in our industry and extremely disliked when it is plastered all over forums.

If a tuner must tune a car for even the right reasons every effort should be made to keep it all private.

Our current protocol is to try our very best to send the customer back to the manufacturer and maybe ask them to do what ever it is they want done.

We did not like our experience of retuning other manufacturers' FI cars and really now try to avoid it as much as possible.

We are doing some cars now but they are so well outside of the envelope of the original manufacturers specification (pulleys, injectors, intercooler cores) that it's then like a totally custom job. Even then, you will hardly ever find any of these owners posting on forums because we specify this before sending an invoice.

Sal,

Why are you getting involved? Seems like you just enjoy stirring up drama.

How do you know anything about Mike's / BPM's capabilities?

That's great that you've tuned other manufacturer's products and have decided against it. I see no issue with it. It's obviously a heavily-opinionated subject. So why don't we allow the OP/client make that decision for themselves?

And remember, this client ORIGINALLY had a BPM Sport Tune.

Thanks,
Marco

[Ezio]

just wanted to stop by and say my thoughts.

if i was dropping s/c money, i would get the best tuner possible. is mike a good tuner ? fuk yes. s/c tuner IDK?

[Vic311]

So glad I stayed stock, avoided all this bs drama

[Sales@Evolve]

Originally Posted by Marco@McKennaPerformance

Sal,

Why are you getting involved? Seems like you just enjoy stirring up drama.

How do you know anything about Mike's / BPM's capabilities?

That's great that you've tuned other manufacturer's products and have decided against it. I see no issue with it. It's obviously a heavily-opinionated subject. So why don't we allow the OP/client make that decision for themselves?

And remember, this client ORIGINALLY had a BPM Sport Tune.

Thanks,
Marco

Marco,

Because Evolve were mentioned numerous times about this subject and to point out that FI tuning is nothing like NA tuning.
If that's called causing drama then so be it.

Why are you getting involved?

As for Mike's abilities, I have not spoken on the subject directly or indirectly. So I'm not sure as to why you have asked me this question.

[rjd598]

Originally Posted by nullrouted

I think DLSJ5 is just grumpy because his dividend check from ESS was late this month.

Lol cheap shot but funny nonetheless

[lsal]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Marco,

Because Evolve were mentioned numerous times about this subject and to point out that FI tuning is nothing like NA tuning.
If that's called causing drama then so be it.

Why are you getting involved?

As for Mike's abilities, I have not spoken on the subject directly or indirectly. So I'm not sure as to why you have asked me this question.

+1 was an informative post that helped give some context!

Thanks Sal for chiming in!

[nullrouted]

So now that some vendors have chimed in, what have we learned?

1. All "tuners" are straight-up hacking and/or reverse-engineering BMW's DME, but that's considered ethically OK. (Is it because BMW is an evil faceless corporation? Lol)

2. If a tuner were to dare reverse-engineer another tuners work. That's not OK. (Can they smell the hypocrisy from #1?)

3. The S/C kit vendors care more about etiquette than competition. (Weird, considering tuning cars is about making them faster than other cars...and in turn selling more services...business 101).

4. The consumers of FI cars are ultimately hurt the worst because it doesn't seem that there is any "ethical" way in this community to get the most out of your hardware. Like ESS' kit composition but want an Evolve tune? (Like Sal said, the hardware is the EASY part). You're an outcast and/or heretic! Bought an ESS kit but you live in Colorado at high altitude? Tough! Want to get it retuned by someone else? Don't you dare!!

Maybe it's just me, but this S/C/Tuning industry for M3's is absolutely hilarious. Business is about dominating the competition (not politely asking them things...) while delivering the best VALUE to your customers. I think many of these vendors believe they're "doing people a favor" by selling these s/c kits and then after the sale giving little to no customer service, then complaining when that customer goes to someone else with their hardware. The few of you defending them are doing so primarily because you haven't had the same experience that the "rank and file" have. DLSJ5 for example, must have a gaping hole in his wallet from all the money spent at ESS, VT3 and all. Therefore he gets awesome customer service and retunes, etc (read special treatment) and acts like anyone who who tunes elsewhere is a heretic all while staunchly defending the people he's promised his first born to for more boost. Nothing wrong with that, but it does color one's opinion.

[Sales@Evolve]

Originally Posted by leigh

how much is max boost you think you could run on a s65 and staying safe? i spoke with someone and they said 8psi even if you run e85 because cylinder pressure would be to high with any more

Will answer this via PM, you can put up the answer in another thread.

[jamze132]

It kind of seems like every time a customer is satisfied with BPM Sport, there's a secret society on here that is out to bash Mikes name...

[kawasaki00]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

Will answer this via PM, you can put up the answer in another thread.

To me a S/C m3 engine running e85 is asking for problems. Already high compression, then dumping e85 in pushes the compression up even higher and it adds more timing.

[nullrouted]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Flawed argument. Tuning a stock DMI is hardly reversed engineering. It is improving certain aspects that basically were left on the table by the manufacture to stay within EU guidelines, R&D specs, etc... We can argue until the cows come home if tuning that is a good idea or not. Nobody is copying anything.

If that were true, wouldn't BMW publish the full specs on their DME so that tuners would have an easier time 'improving' it? Funny that they don't...perhaps because it is a proprietary system developed with more money than any of these tuners will ever see in a lifetime? So yes, it is being reverse-engineered against the will of BMW.

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

The issue here is that we are talking about proprietary software that has been developed to drastically change the the nature of the car - supercharged vs. NA. ESS spent a lot of money and time in creating this software, anybody saying that this isn't hard is borderline retarded.

Nobody said they didn't spend time/money on it...

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Now we have a company that either developed its own FI tune from scratch, possible but very unlikely. Or, they took an exciting FI tune and slapped their name on it. And that is a big difference. That is taking somebody else's hard work and presenting it as your own.

Now, if BPM says that they are "improving" on the ESS tune (going back to your argument) just like a tuner improves the BMW DMI I think we would all like to know what has been changed and "improved".

Nobody is saying they are improving on ESS' tune, quite the opposite in fact, because the OP bought his kit 2nd hand with no ESS tune at all. My argument was that it would be fine if they did, and they wouldn't owe it to you to tell you that's what they did either

However, going back to your original point about who did the hard work, etc... I wonder, have any of these tunes been patented? I did a quick search and I couldn't come up with anything other than some patents on the manifolds. Could it be because you can't patent a reverse-engineered hack job on BMW's DME? Without patent protection, all any 'tuner' really has on here is trolling/complaining to save them. In fact if anyone were to reverse-engineer their tune, such that they could sell it -- ESS couldn't do anything to stop them, legally. These tunes are like the Coke recipe, gotta keep them secret, because anyone can use them if they get out.

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

If it has been changed you are looking at a set of issues that got mentioned before... it is hardly tested, tiny adjustments can gave big nasty results (motor shit the bed), etc... And that brings me to my previous point - all the 'standing behind the product' BS is meaningless if that vendor doesn't have the funds to provide a new motor if the shit hits the fan.

Sure, and I'm sure OP is well-aware of the risks. That said, I don't know a single case where ESS has replaced a blown motor, do you? So what point are you trying to make?

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Marco@McKennaPerformance

You are correct, the proper equipment to perform bench flow injector tests does cost thousands of dollars, but no where did anyone claim Mike Benvo or BPM Sport performed these tests in-house.

I understand you want to protect your friend, and people are accusing me of the same thing, I get it, but do you build and tune supercharger kits? Do you know the steps and procedures you need to take to do something the proper way, or is that slandering to ask from someone who just started FI tuning on an expensive car? I don't build or tune kits either, I just drive the cars, but it's conventional wisdom that the injector tests are an important step and there is a proper way to do it, this is completely relevant to bring up, especially if BPM started tuning from scratch.

Originally Posted by Marco@McKennaPerformance

Did anyone care to think he may have outsourced this service to a professional shop who specializes in that service?

No idea, but it's okay to ask right? Based on the info from the OP, probably not.

Originally Posted by Marco@McKennaPerformance

A long-term client of Mike's contacted him in regards to tuning a supercharger system he purchased. What's the issue with that?

We've been over this, no problem with the OP, but people have serious questions, and are asking for data and information, anything, but not blind faith. Normally when another tuner comes on board, they've actually tuned FI kits, and or are active at doing it all the time, they may get grilled for doing that, but at least no one questions how they did it, because they already do or have a long history of doing it, motives yes how they were able to do it, not as much. There's a much different scenario here, hence the reason many are asking fair questions. As Sal pointed out it ain't that easy on the S65, and every S65 FI tuner will concur with Sal, that's important, it's relevant.

Originally Posted by Marco@McKennaPerformance

We all have personal preferences, and the OP's preference is clearly BPM Sport. So please stop slandering Mike and his company with false information and ridiculous accusations.

Thanks,
Marco

Nobody is saying that SC kit owners don't have preferences, but what false information and accusations are you referring too? It's completely relevant to have a well known BMW tuner, who actually tunes FI on the S65, to come in here and help clear up a lot of the misconceptions in this thread, he is not slandering anyone, he's giving us and this thread something tangible for once. The jest of what he said is basically the same I've heard from most of the FI tuners on the S65, not possible for one man to create a FI file on the S65 and it ain't as easy as reading another companies FI tune, which BPM has as well, then going off and making a few tweaks and you're done, lol, it's a lot more complicated. He added some important information that people needed as well as logic to this thread, instead of a bunch of people bickering, including myself. No offense to you, I'm sure you're a great guy but you've offered nothing close to what Sal has in this thread, except coming in here to defend a friend, I guess there's some honor in being a fanboy.

[SouthShoreM3]

OP I have been reading this thread till the end. Honestly, yes it does serve as a calculated risk. However, whether its BPM, ESS, AA, GINTANI, G POWER, VF or an independent tuner of you trust them and that tuner is confident in doing the work and will stand by you if anything does go wrong that is what matters.

In m short history of owning a SC M3 (which I first purchased a VF540 kit last November and now a new 575 ess kit since June/July) it's important to have trust and customer service. In my first experience with VF, I thought I was buying a good product and well developed software. If you have seen my posts, that turned into the opposite and I wish I had the ability to go to an independent tuner and get the software issue resolved. Instead, I put my trust and hard earned income into VF to solve the problem.

Instead I had to take extreme measures if I wanted to keep te vehicle SC and decided to purchase a completely new kit from ESS.

Yes their software has been bulletproof and the vehicle runs flawlessly. If you achieve the same results from BPM or whomever so be it.

Hopefully this will open the doors for those that have had ongoing issues with their software on other kits and they are not getting the results and service that should be expected when investing in a product of this nature. And if you save a little extra...great!

[Chrishkm5]

How could I get hold of Mike ? Anyone has his email address ? After reading the tread I would like to see what heras to offer for my 2006 m5 ?

[lsal]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Hopefully one day they create some sort of a search function, or search engine that you could use to look for things on the internets. Maybe something using keywords, and such...

[US///M3]

Originally Posted by Chrishkm5

How could I get hold of Mike ? Anyone has his email address ? After reading the tread I would like to see what heras to offer for my 2006 m5 ?

Here we go.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Mike+Benvo+BPM+contact

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

The issue here is that we are talking about proprietary software that has been developed to drastically change the the nature of the car - supercharged vs. NA. ESS spent a lot of money and time in creating this software, anybody saying that this isn't hard is borderline retarded.

Exacty and as Sal or another other BMW tuner would point out, it's frowned upon to tune someone else's kit, most of these Fi tuners, although in serious competition, get that.

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Now we have a company that either developed its own FI tune from scratch, possible but very unlikely. Or, they took an exciting FI tune and slapped their name on it. And that is a big difference. That is taking somebody else's hard work and presenting it as your own.

If BPM did this from scratch then that's an amazing accomplishment, but it appears that doing that would be extremely difficult to do, it took all the S65 FI tuners/kits a long time to develope a viable/reliable tune, and they're probably still improving them.

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Now, if BPM says that they are "improving" on the ESS tune (going back to your argument) just like a tuner improves the BMW DMI I think we would all like to know what has been changed and "improved".

Something tells me he wouldn't care if it was built on someone else's FI tune, especially if the Mustang and Evo guys do it. I remember Benvo accusing another tuner of selling, slightly if at all, tweaked euro SMG software with their brand name on it, and what a faux pas that was, and I would agree with Benvo if true, hopefully in this case as some others have asserted or alluded too, he didn't do the same thing himself with this FI tune, I'm not even sure how you could prove it.

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

If it has been changed you are looking at a set of issues that got mentioned before... it is hardly tested, tiny adjustments can gave big nasty results (motor shit the bed), etc... And that brings me to my previous point - all the 'standing behind the product' BS is meaningless if that vendor doesn't have the funds to provide a new motor if the shit hits the fan.

Well said.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by nullrouted

If that were true, wouldn't BMW publish the full specs on their DME so that tuners would have an easier time 'improving' it? Funny that they don't...perhaps because it is a proprietary system developed with more money than any of these tuners will ever see in a lifetime? So yes, it is being reverse-engineered against the will of BMW.

I don't know if this helps or hurts your comments but it will definitely add clarity to it. BMW does publish the full tuning specs of their DME in something called a "DAMOS" file. At the very least, the DAMOS file contains a map to all the tuning maps in the ECU. So when a tuner tells you he knows the location of 12000 tuning maps, he didn't reverse-engineer it, he's saying he has the DAMOS file. I really don't think there's any reverse-engineered going on here to find these maps, as all the tuners have these DAMOS files. BTW the DAMOS file also contains locations for top speed limiter, RPM limiter, etc.

But the tuners do need a way to access the maps. And that's where the real reverse-engineering comes in. The real reverse engineering is done by a "Guy" in Israel -- and his name is really Guy. Guy is the guy who figures out the electrical interface to the ECU, and the communications protocols for reading and writing the tables in the ECU. You wonder why all the tuners use the same looking cable? It's because they all buy them from the same "Guy." The other piece of the puzzle is the map editing software which is provided by another third-party and is available on the open market.

So to sum it up: DAMOS file (bought on black market) + map editing software + "Guy" in Israel == Tuner capable.

And by the way, the protection would be copyright not patent.

Anyways, I hope this adds some clarity to the BMW tuning process.

[RJM3]

Originally Posted by Marco@McKennaPerformance

You are correct, the proper equipment to perform bench flow injector tests does cost thousands of dollars, but no where did anyone claim Mike Benvo or BPM Sport performed these tests in-house.

Did anyone care to think he may have outsourced this service to a professional shop who specializes in that service?

We all have personal preferences, and the OP's preference is clearly BPM Sport. So please stop slandering Mike and his company with false information and ridiculous accusations.

Thanks,
Marco

Marco thanks for your input although I am not sure why you are getting involved in answering something wasn't addressed to you.

OP clearly stated that Mike did the test. Whether he did it himself or not I don't know and this is exactly why I asked OP to share more info on how it was done.

If "he went to the extent of flow benching my injector sizing for proper scaling and pulse width parameters" implies this test was outsourced than is should be said so and Mike should not be getting a credit for something he didn't do.

If we have to assume that Mike sent outsourced this test then we can assume as well that he didn't tune this ESS SC kit and outsourced it as well. This is according to your logic.

It's great that Mike was able to tune that kit but all I asked is to elaborate on how the injector test was done.

Originally Posted by DansM

No conflict started its ok. I went with Mike because I was a loyal customer seeking the same top notch service. Besides, I got a lot more for my dollar with my tune including; cold start RPM reduction, and servo-tronic. Mike was also very forward with me in that he made sure every aspect that needed to be addressed would be covered in order for the car to run correctly. As stated before, he went to the extent of flow benching my injector sizing for proper scaling and pulse width parameters. I feel like I had a more personal, hands on tuning experience with my SC car than any other could offer. Meaning not just a cable sent and a file uploaded. He made sure I was covered safely and that I would have the enjoyment that I sought from a SC. This doesn't mean the ESS isn't good, just that Mikes was more personal and offered more plus he stand behind it.

[RJM3]

Thanks for the info!

I am very aware on how ID does their testing and that equipment is not cheap.

This is what caught my attention reading the post about this test.

Originally Posted by regular guy

I'm not the OP, but injector flow benches aren't cheap. I'm kind of guessing the price based on test equipment that I do know, but I would guess an injector flow bench would cost about $15k-20k.

There are plenty of web sites used to calculate injector size, with and without E85. If you're interested, I've attached a few.
http://www.injectorrx.com/fuel-injector-calculator/
http://www.dsmtuners.com/sub.php?page=e85calculator
http://www.injectordynamics.com/HPCalculator.html

Then when you've got it figured out, you order your S65 injectors from Injector Dynamics. For custom injectors, they do the flow testing for you. But I don't think any of these supercharged applications require custom injectors as Injector Dynamics will stock all of the common S65 injector sizes. For these, they will provide flow analysis upon demand; no muss, no fuss. A recent project required 1000cc S65 injectors, and this is where we bought them. Oh and have a look at the "Bad Ass Tuners" page of the web site. There's some well known tuners on there.
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ApplicationData.html

I hope this helps.