ESS 550 Kit.. Tuned by Mike Benvo

[rjd598]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Most folks in this position would try to see if somebody else is to blame, it's just the way it works, especially if $20+K for a new motor is on the line. A small company can give you all the warranty and reinsurance they want, if they don't have the cash flow and a full account they simply can't do it - and you are f@cked.

Most tuners don't make big money, you think the profit margin is high, but your client base is very limited, hence most don't have the security of a flush bank account.

So unless you are a big name with ample funds standing behind your product is only as good as the company's bank account. So if you compare a larger company that is tuning FI for a long time, and has a proven safe record, to a one-man (or two man) show that is starting to look into FI tuning I think you have the important variables to make the decision.

100% agree with everything you said. My point is don't be so quick to judge. It would make sense for the tuner to blame ess/bmw but a smart person would never take that liability on for themselves and then blame other manufacturers. Bad professionalism at work and just bad business skills. I guess time will only tell...

[Soorena]

Originally Posted by rjd598

100% agree with everything you said. My point is don't be so quick to judge. It would make sense for the tuner to blame ess/bmw but a smart person would never take that liability on for themselves and then blame other manufacturers. Bad professionalism at work and just bad business skills. I guess time will only tell...

Call me when you find a tuner who takes responsibility. They will always blame the hardware if it's not their's, or the user.

[THE-FN-MAN]

Skimmed through most of this thread because my eyes were starting to bleed but did I see it stated somewhere that bpm has delt with all the FI kits that are out for this car? How did that happen?

[FogCityM3]

In the very few times it's come up, Dinan has stepped up to the plate in those instances.

Originally Posted by Soorena

Call me when you find a tuner who takes responsibility. They will always blame the hardware if it's not their's, or the user.

[jpirelli]

Enough bickering, let's see some data from THE TECH or Benvo

[lsal]

Originally Posted by jpirelli

Enough bickering, let's see some data from THE TECH or Benvo

+1

[nullrouted]

Originally Posted by lsal

+1

Looks good.

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Hence the very reason you wanna have the software from the folks who built the hardware in the first place.

The end.

By that logic, no one should ever purchase a NA tune, since BMW built the car.

[SYZ]

Originally Posted by jpirelli

Enough bickering, let's see some data from THE TECH or Benvo

Originally Posted by lsal

+1

Originally Posted by nullrouted

Looks good.

x100000

[Longboarder]

I expected to see a dyno on the first page of this thread by the OP.

OP - can you please post your dyno since the tech said there was at least two dynos. And if there is a data log, please post as well.

Thx.

[Black Gold]

Anyone have a data log from an ess 550 kit to compare? (Assuming Bpm provides a datalog of their tune on this hardware)

[Sales@Evolve]

On the subject of tuners tuning other tuners hardware it is a very tricky and indeed difficult subject.

We tuned a few supercharged kits which were not our own.

It wasn't the best of ideas. One the manufacturers called us to speak about it in a very civil way. They had no issue us tuning the cars but did politely ask we did not allow this to be seen in the open. It makes the manufacturer look bad and really does lead to bad feelings.
Also, the instant accusation of simply making small tweaks to someone else's fully developed work come about which also implies copying. Again, more negativity.

The fact is that there will only be a handful of people who will be willing to get their kits tuned by anyone other than the manufacturer. So the very very few individuals there will be are simply not worth the hassle and money in relation to the amount of negativity created.

Overall it's considered to be not the best move in our industry and extremely disliked when it is plastered all over forums.

If a tuner must tune a car for even the right reasons every effort should be made to keep it all private.

Our current protocol is to try our very best to send the customer back to the manufacturer and maybe ask them to do what ever it is they want done.

We did not like our experience of retuning other manufacturers' FI cars and really now try to avoid it as much as possible.

We are doing some cars now but they are so well outside of the envelope of the original manufacturers specification (pulleys, injectors, intercooler cores) that it's then like a totally custom job. Even then, you will hardly ever find any of these owners posting on forums because we specify this before sending an invoice.

[bubu]

Glad to see everyone is calming down, including myself...

THE TECH, I went a tad far in my last post while in the heat of the moment. I apologize about in insinuations and will censor my cynicism going forward with Mike, and yourself as an extension.

With that said, I'm glad you guys are FI tuning...more options = community win. There have been so few tuners in the community period, and we have/had garbage like the GIAC tune sold (experienced it first hand) so its hard not to be skeptical at times. Like I said earlier, E85 and race gas tunes will be a wonderful thing. While I wish ESS was flexible with their tuning options I thing I know why they are so rigid...they don't want blown motors. Blown motors equates to bad publicity and therefore lost sales. Just look how much back & forth that blown motor on the 650 kit generated...and that was pure user error. I can easily imagine someone under-blending to 98 octane thinking they are @ 100 and kaboom.

Regardless of BPM/Mike's skills getting a largely unproven FI tune is a big gamble with a very expensive motor. I am very much (like everyone else) looking forward to the dynos & empirical data from the OP & BPM/Mike.

[Sales@Evolve]

A note on those that think tuning an FI car is easy.

It takes a huge amount of work to get this even close to right and even then there is scope to make it so much better.

My own personal experience is not one I look back on and say it's something I enjoyed.

So to give a small snapshot.

It's NOTHING like NA tuning. With NA tuning you do not have to deal with rescaling the fuel injectors and massively altering the following maps (This is just an example of a few):

Partial Load Aim ignition timing
Full throttle Aim ignition timing
Base Ignition Maps
Partial Load Lambda Aim
Full Throttle Lambda Aim
Lambda Aim for different scenarios
Fuel scaling map (better known as the base fuel map)
Torque management maps
Torque deviation maps
Fuel enrichment maps
Ignition angle compensation maps for IAT (we will of course be running higher IAT's so this is a very important map)

Now many of these maps are linked. You cannot with larger injectors and increasing fuel demand for non linear increasing air flow just change a lambda aim map and hope for the best. You have to do both the base maps and aim maps together.
Torque management is an absolute nightmare. This is being measured in real time by the DME. Make too much and it's limp mode. Raise the expected torque too high and it's limp mode. You can play all you want with the deviation maps but if it's too far off it's still limp mode.
Some of these maps are large and no one in the tuning industry can truly live map these DME's. This is the job of the development engineers only who have the incredibly sophisticated equipment linked to the development DME's.
It takes countless flashes to the DME after hundreds of hours to get close. Each flash takes approx 5 mins. Then you have to datalog, make another change, change multiple maps, flash again.
Add to this the DME is continually adapting which throws you even more!

This is not just some easy little task.

Then let's go on to when you decide you have found a better strategy. Start from half way and do it all over again.

Our kit is a recent release and people in the UK saw how incredibly involved this was to get just the tuning right. The hardware in comparison is very very easy.

Take into account that no one supercharger company is using the same calibration as the release version. These calibrations are continually developed and sometimes rebuilt from the ground up. No different to how vastly different 60E and 240E are! Even a company as big as BMW drastically changed their ignition timing strategy amongst so many other variables over years.

NA tuning in comparison is much easier up to bolt ons. No bigger fuel injectors and the airflow changes from bolt ons are small . The strategies are far simpler in comparison.

On the face of it, FI tuning may sound not much harder but not when you are dealing with a DME such as this, it is no simple straight forward task.

If any of you ever see for example our S62 supercharger calibration changes and then compare it to our S65 calibration changes just the map list is 4 times the size in comparison.

Tuning from the ground up on FI S65's takes a massive amount of time and resources.

Yes, someone can make a calibration that will make the engine run on the rich side and give the impression it's fairly decent but that's until you experience an accurate calibration. Our first release for our SC kit was good. Until the customers all started getting updates as time went on. They did not believe it could get that much better and it still continues today. An example of this is my last calibration project on the DD Evolve SC M3 - to improve the engine braking a little more but not upset the balance of over run fuel and dynamic on/off throttle response. A complete success but one that took some time and also lots of opinions from different drivers. These are the fine details which are relatively easy compared to the main job.

To truly calibrate an S65 FI car with multiple different boost settings combined with intercooled and non intercooled versions takes a vast amount of time behind the wheel and lots of analysis.

We haven't even started talking about altering the compensation maps for the extremes of weather and altitude. Yes, ideally they need to be altered too because the OEM temperature compensation settings do not take into account the massive rise in cylinder pressure.

The most vital testing of all is the real world full throttle high speed runs where you get the compressor spinning at the same high rpm's for long periods of time which will inevitably raise the IAT's. It is here the real safety tuning takes place where you are dealing with long period high temperatures with long periods of high cylinder pressures. It is here your AFR and ignition timing targets vs actuals are realised and fully adjusted. Get this bit wrong and your engine will not be so happy when pushed to the extreme. No amount of dyno testing can replicate this and I know for a fact that the major supercharger calibrations are all tested in this way mostly in Europe on Autobahns or hired air strips like the ones in the UK and Sweden.

Something else which the public should know. There is absolutely NO WAY one person on his own can devote the time to this type of calibration. It takes sometimes a few heads to come together to solve certain angles of the calibration. You can sometimes miss out what may seem to be the simplest analysis but amidst all of that testing and possible permutations and combinations of different map settings it is so easy.

I hope that's put this subject into some perspective from someone who actually calibrated their own supercharger kit.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

On the subject of tuners tuning other tuners hardware it is a very tricky and indeed difficult subject.

We tuned a few supercharged kits which were not our own.

It wasn't the best of ideas. One the manufacturers called us to speak about it in a very civil way. They had no issue us tuning the cars but did politely ask we did not allow this to be seen in the open. It makes the manufacturer look bad and really does lead to bad feelings.
Also, the instant accusation of simply making small tweaks to someone else's fully developed work come about which also implies copying. Again, more negativity.

The fact is that there will only be a handful of people who will be willing to get their kits tuned by anyone other than the manufacturer. So the very very few individuals there will be are simply not worth the hassle and money in relation to the amount of negativity created.

Overall it's considered to be not the best move in our industry and extremely disliked when it is plastered all over forums.

If a tuner must tune a car for even the right reasons every effort should be made to keep it all private.

Our current protocol is to try our very best to send the customer back to the manufacturer and maybe ask them to do what ever it is they want done.

We did not like our experience of retuning other manufacturers' FI cars and really now try to avoid it as much as possible.

We are doing some cars now but they are so well outside of the envelope of the original manufacturers specification (pulleys, injectors, intercooler cores) that it's then like a totally custom job. Even then, you will hardly ever find any of these owners posting on forums because we specify this before sending an invoice.

Sal, well said. If only I could have been as eloquant, and convincing as you it may have not turned into what it did. It's nice to hear from a tuner who actually develops, builds and tunes their own SC kits, and what their thoughts are on this. I appreciate your post, thank you.

[DLSJ5]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

A note on those that think tuning an FI car is easy.

It takes a huge amount of work to get this even close to right and even then there is scope to make it so much better.

My own personal experience is not one I look back on and say it's something I enjoyed.

So to give a small snapshot.

It's NOTHING like NA tuning. With NA tuning you do not have to deal with rescaling the fuel injectors and massively altering the following maps (This is just an example of a few):

Partial Load Aim ignition timing
Full throttle Aim ignition timing
Base Ignition Maps
Partial Load Lambda Aim
Full Throttle Lambda Aim
Lambda Aim for different scenarios
Fuel scaling map (better known as the base fuel map)
Torque management maps
Torque deviation maps
Fuel enrichment maps
Ignition angle compensation maps for IAT (we will of course be running higher IAT's so this is a very important map)

Now many of these maps are linked. You cannot with larger injectors and increasing fuel demand for non linear increasing air flow just change a lambda aim map and hope for the best. You have to do both the base maps and aim maps together.
Torque management is an absolute nightmare. This is being measured in real time by the DME. Make too much and it's limp mode. Raise the expected torque too high and it's limp mode. You can play all you want with the deviation maps but if it's too far off it's still limp mode.
Some of these maps are large and no one in the tuning industry can truly live map these DME's. This is the job of the development engineers only who have the incredibly sophisticated equipment linked to the development DME's.
It takes countless flashes to the DME after hundreds of hours to get close. Each flash takes approx 5 mins. Then you have to datalog, make another change, change multiple maps, flash again.
Add to this the DME is continually adapting which throws you even more!

This is not just some easy little task.

Then let's go on to when you decide you have found a better strategy. Start from half way and do it all over again.

Our kit is a recent release and people in the UK saw how incredibly involved this was to get just the tuning right. The hardware in comparison is very very easy.

Take into account that no one supercharger company is using the same calibration as the release version. These calibrations are continually developed and sometimes rebuilt from the ground up. No different to how vastly different 60E and 240E are! Even a company as big as BMW drastically changed their ignition timing strategy amongst so many other variables over years.

NA tuning in comparison is much easier up to bolt ons. No bigger fuel injectors and the airflow changes from bolt ons are small . The strategies are far simpler in comparison.

On the face of it, FI tuning may sound not much harder but not when you are dealing with a DME such as this, it is no simple straight forward task.

If any of you ever see for example our S62 supercharger calibration changes and then compare it to our S65 calibration changes just the map list is 4 times the size in comparison.

Tuning from the ground up on FI S65's takes a massive amount of time and resources.

Yes, someone can make a calibration that will make the engine run on the rich side and give the impression it's fairly decent but that's until you experience an accurate calibration. Our first release for our SC kit was good. Until the customers all started getting updates as time went on. They did not believe it could get that much better and it still continues today.

To truly calibrate an S65 FI car with multiple different boost settings combined with intercooled and non intercooled versions takes a vast amount of time behind the wheel and lots of analysis.

We haven't even started talking about altering the compensation maps for the extremes of weather and altitude. Yes, ideally they need to be altered too because the OEM temperature compensation settings do not take into account the massive rise in cylinder pressure.

The most vital testing of all is the real world full throttle high speed runs where you get the compressor spinning at the same high rpm's for long periods of time which will inevitably raise the IAT's. It is here the real safety tuning takes place where you are dealing with long period high temperatures with long periods of high cylinder pressures. It is here your AFR and ignition timing targets vs actuals are realised and fully adjusted. Get this bit wrong and your engine will not be so happy when pushed to the extreme. No amount of dyno testing can replicate this and I know for a fact that the major supercharger calibrations are all tested in this way mostly in Europe on Autobahns or hired air strips like the ones in the UK and Sweden.

Something else which the public should know. There is absolutely NO WAY one person on his own can devote the time to this type of calibration. It takes sometimes a few heads to come together to solve certain angles of the calibration. You can sometimes miss out what may seem to be the simplest analysis but amidst all of that testing and possible permutations and combinations of different map settings it is so easy.

I hope that's put this subject into some perspective from someone who actually calibrated their own supercharger kit.

Another awesome post, hopefully it will help inform people here and to help them understand that this process is not an easy one as some have asserted here. Your post concurs with all of the FI S65 tuners that I have spoken too, that is with regards to the difficult task of creating a FI tune from scratch on the S65. Thank you once again for adding some clarity and actual experience to this discussion it certainly needed it more than ever.

[jpirelli]

Thanks a lot Sal for chiming in.

I want to make it clear that I am not on anyone's side here. I'll give credit where credit is due so, not to be inflammatory and all due respect to the OP about what I'm about to ask...

If a professional such as Sal says that FI tuning is such an ordeal, how is someone who didn't know the difference between Alpha N and MAF tuning just a few years ago able to tackle this and remotely even? Did BPM tune it from the ground up or modify the ESS tune? I'm just curious.

Once again, I have no horse in this race but I'd like to see some dyno data at the very least to see how the BPM tune for this kit actually is. Everyone is entitled to their opinion (and I have mine, which I will keep to myself) but it's time to lay the facts out and let everyone be the judge of that.

[Sales@Evolve]

Originally Posted by tightie

Tuning another persons SK Kit:

Let me tell you my experiences, I was the first supercharged M3 in the United States. Someone who will rename nameless who even worked with the company who released the sc kit, tweeked with my supercharged file. All he did was change two degrees of timing. Nothing more, nothing less.

The car ran fine for weeks, months. One day after racing a M6 on the freeway. My motor took a shit, instantly.

I can bet with that amount of ignition advance it made some great extra power on the dyno and it was considered to be a great idea at the time.
Until the continual rise in cylinder pressure and maybe a bad batch of fuel with just a little less octane finally caused the killer stroke.

This is just one example of developing a calibration which is actually safe.
A couple of dyno runs cannot be used as a platform to setup optimal ignition timing or even safe igniton timing.
Under race conditions temperatures soar on FI cars and that's when silly high targets can cause catastrophic failures....

Some of you may think 2 degrees is not much but on an FI application running upwards of 6 PSi it's quite a lot especially under real world hard driving conditions.

[RJM3]

OP,

Would you mind sharing how the bench flow test of the injectors was done? I am sure if Mike did it he probably shared with you information and perhaps some pictures on how it was done? It would be great for the rest of us to know.

I've seen bench flow injector testing in the past and I believe the equipment to have it done properly costs thousands of dollars.

Like Sal earlier said its not a simple task so I am curious how it was done.

[regular guy]

Originally Posted by RJM3

OP,

Would you mind sharing how the bench flow test of the injectors was done? I am sure if Mike did it he probably shared with you information and perhaps some pictures on how it was done? It would be great for the rest of us to know.

I've seen bench flow injector testing in the past and I believe the equipment to have it done properly costs thousands of dollars.

Like Sal earlier said its not a simple task so I am curious how it was done.

I'm not the OP, but injector flow benches aren't cheap. I'm kind of guessing the price based on test equipment that I do know, but I would guess an injector flow bench would cost about $15k-20k.

There are plenty of web sites used to calculate injector size, with and without E85. If you're interested, I've attached a few.
http://www.injectorrx.com/fuel-injector-calculator/
http://www.dsmtuners.com/sub.php?page=e85calculator
http://www.injectordynamics.com/HPCalculator.html

Then when you've got it figured out, you order your S65 injectors from Injector Dynamics. For custom injectors, they do the flow testing for you. But I don't think any of these supercharged applications require custom injectors as Injector Dynamics will stock all of the common S65 injector sizes. For these, they will provide flow analysis upon demand; no muss, no fuss. A recent project required 1000cc S65 injectors, and this is where we bought them. Oh and have a look at the "Bad Ass Tuners" page of the web site. There's some well known tuners on there.
http://www.injectordynamics.com/ApplicationData.html

I hope this helps.

[OM VT3]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

I can bet with that amount of ignition advance it made some great extra power on the dyno and it was considered to be a great idea at the time.
Until the continual rise in cylinder pressure and maybe a bad batch of fuel with just a little less octane finally caused the killer stroke.

This is just one example of developing a calibration which is actually safe.
A couple of dyno runs cannot be used as a platform to setup optimal ignition timing or even safe igniton timing.
Under race conditions temperatures soar on FI cars and that's when silly high targets can cause catastrophic failures....

Some of you may think 2 degrees is not much but on an FI application running upwards of 6 PSi it's quite a lot especially under real world hard driving conditions.

how much is max boost you think you could run on a s65 and staying safe? i spoke with someone and they said 8psi even if you run e85 because cylinder pressure would be to high with any more

[0-60Motorsports]

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

On the subject of tuners tuning other tuners hardware it is a very tricky and indeed difficult subject.

We tuned a few supercharged kits which were not our own.

It wasn't the best of ideas. One the manufacturers called us to speak about it in a very civil way. They had no issue us tuning the cars but did politely ask we did not allow this to be seen in the open. It makes the manufacturer look bad and really does lead to bad feelings.
Also, the instant accusation of simply making small tweaks to someone else's fully developed work come about which also implies copying. Again, more negativity.

The fact is that there will only be a handful of people who will be willing to get their kits tuned by anyone other than the manufacturer. So the very very few individuals there will be are simply not worth the hassle and money in relation to the amount of negativity created.

Overall it's considered to be not the best move in our industry and extremely disliked when it is plastered all over forums.

If a tuner must tune a car for even the right reasons every effort should be made to keep it all private.

Our current protocol is to try our very best to send the customer back to the manufacturer and maybe ask them to do what ever it is they want done.

We did not like our experience of retuning other manufacturers' FI cars and really now try to avoid it as much as possible.

We are doing some cars now but they are so well outside of the envelope of the original manufacturers specification (pulleys, injectors, intercooler cores) that it's then like a totally custom job. Even then, you will hardly ever find any of these owners posting on forums because we specify this before sending an invoice.

Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve

A note on those that think tuning an FI car is easy.

It takes a huge amount of work to get this even close to right and even then there is scope to make it so much better.

My own personal experience is not one I look back on and say it's something I enjoyed.

So to give a small snapshot.

It's NOTHING like NA tuning. With NA tuning you do not have to deal with rescaling the fuel injectors and massively altering the following maps (This is just an example of a few):

Partial Load Aim ignition timing
Full throttle Aim ignition timing
Base Ignition Maps
Partial Load Lambda Aim
Full Throttle Lambda Aim
Lambda Aim for different scenarios
Fuel scaling map (better known as the base fuel map)
Torque management maps
Torque deviation maps
Fuel enrichment maps
Ignition angle compensation maps for IAT (we will of course be running higher IAT's so this is a very important map)

Now many of these maps are linked. You cannot with larger injectors and increasing fuel demand for non linear increasing air flow just change a lambda aim map and hope for the best. You have to do both the base maps and aim maps together.
Torque management is an absolute nightmare. This is being measured in real time by the DME. Make too much and it's limp mode. Raise the expected torque too high and it's limp mode. You can play all you want with the deviation maps but if it's too far off it's still limp mode.
Some of these maps are large and no one in the tuning industry can truly live map these DME's. This is the job of the development engineers only who have the incredibly sophisticated equipment linked to the development DME's.
It takes countless flashes to the DME after hundreds of hours to get close. Each flash takes approx 5 mins. Then you have to datalog, make another change, change multiple maps, flash again.
Add to this the DME is continually adapting which throws you even more!

This is not just some easy little task.

Then let's go on to when you decide you have found a better strategy. Start from half way and do it all over again.

Our kit is a recent release and people in the UK saw how incredibly involved this was to get just the tuning right. The hardware in comparison is very very easy.

Take into account that no one supercharger company is using the same calibration as the release version. These calibrations are continually developed and sometimes rebuilt from the ground up. No different to how vastly different 60E and 240E are! Even a company as big as BMW drastically changed their ignition timing strategy amongst so many other variables over years.

NA tuning in comparison is much easier up to bolt ons. No bigger fuel injectors and the airflow changes from bolt ons are small . The strategies are far simpler in comparison.

On the face of it, FI tuning may sound not much harder but not when you are dealing with a DME such as this, it is no simple straight forward task.

If any of you ever see for example our S62 supercharger calibration changes and then compare it to our S65 calibration changes just the map list is 4 times the size in comparison.

Tuning from the ground up on FI S65's takes a massive amount of time and resources.

Yes, someone can make a calibration that will make the engine run on the rich side and give the impression it's fairly decent but that's until you experience an accurate calibration. Our first release for our SC kit was good. Until the customers all started getting updates as time went on. They did not believe it could get that much better and it still continues today. An example of this is my last calibration project on the DD Evolve SC M3 - to improve the engine braking a little more but not upset the balance of over run fuel and dynamic on/off throttle response. A complete success but one that took some time and also lots of opinions from different drivers. These are the fine details which are relatively easy compared to the main job.

To truly calibrate an S65 FI car with multiple different boost settings combined with intercooled and non intercooled versions takes a vast amount of time behind the wheel and lots of analysis.

We haven't even started talking about altering the compensation maps for the extremes of weather and altitude. Yes, ideally they need to be altered too because the OEM temperature compensation settings do not take into account the massive rise in cylinder pressure.

The most vital testing of all is the real world full throttle high speed runs where you get the compressor spinning at the same high rpm's for long periods of time which will inevitably raise the IAT's. It is here the real safety tuning takes place where you are dealing with long period high temperatures with long periods of high cylinder pressures. It is here your AFR and ignition timing targets vs actuals are realised and fully adjusted. Get this bit wrong and your engine will not be so happy when pushed to the extreme. No amount of dyno testing can replicate this and I know for a fact that the major supercharger calibrations are all tested in this way mostly in Europe on Autobahns or hired air strips like the ones in the UK and Sweden.

Something else which the public should know. There is absolutely NO WAY one person on his own can devote the time to this type of calibration. It takes sometimes a few heads to come together to solve certain angles of the calibration. You can sometimes miss out what may seem to be the simplest analysis but amidst all of that testing and possible permutations and combinations of different map settings it is so easy.

I hope that's put this subject into some perspective from someone who actually calibrated their own supercharger kit.

Sal, Thanks for chiming in. Awesome informative posts as usual. Cheers.