Mixing street/track pads front/rear

[jphughan]

Well, I've finally accepted that I'm certifiably addicted to the track, and now that I've been promoted to Yellow in both directions at TWS, I'm starting to feel I could benefit from my next two planned mods: StopTech ST60 Front BBK and dedicated wheels and tires. The latter appeals to me more since it's less expensive, but it occurred to me that if I'm already thinking I could use better brakes, extra grip from dedicated track tires would only exacerbate that situation, at which point I'd have to get the BBK immediately anyway -- and I'm not sure I want to drop that much cash all at once. So I'm thinking I'll start with just the BBK and go from there.

Which brings me to my question. One thing I love about the StopTech BBK is how easy pad swaps are. However, I only plan to get a BBK setup in the front, partly because of the added cost of a rear BBK setup but mostly because StopTech themselves have a white paper arguing that in most cases rear BBKs are not only not worth the cash, but they can be WORSE than keeping the stock rear setup (http://stoptech.com/technical-suppor...brake-upgrades). But that means that pad swaps would remain somewhat of an ordeal in the rear, which is why I'm hoping I can AVOID swapping rear pads.

Does anyone have any insight into the wisdom of (or even direct experience with) either keeping street pads in the rear full-time, or alternatively keeping track pads in the rear full-time? I'd run StopTech Street Performance as the street pad and probably PFC08 as the track pad. My hope is that since rear brakes contribute relatively little to overall braking, one of these setups will work without creating a problem. My concern with full-time street rears is compromised braking on the track and possibly adverse balance issues, and my concern with full-time track rears is primarily noise on the street, which I really don't want but which might not be an issue if it's just the rears? Balance issues on the street from full-time track rears don't concern me as much since braking levels are obviously so much lighter on the street.

Any input from anyone actually doing something like this, or at least educated opinions on how this might work would be most appreciated.

[dmw16]

I can't comment on mixing pads, but I will say that I did ST40's on the front and run OE calipers on the back and didn't experience anything other than awesome stopping power. And as for track wheels/tires I didn't feel like the ST40's overwhelmed my street tires (Pilot Super Sports) so don't feel like you have to run out and buy track wheels/tires because of the brakes.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by dmw16

I can't comment on mixing pads, but I will say that I did ST40's on the front and run OE calipers on the back and didn't experience anything other than awesome stopping power. And as for track wheels/tires I didn't feel like the ST40's overwhelmed my street tires (Pilot Super Sports) so don't feel like you have to run out and buy track wheels/tires because of the brakes.

Thanks! Good to hear someone else upgraded only the fronts. I will initially continue running PSSes myself. I don't feel that I'll have to upgrade tires because of the brakes, it's actually the other way around. I was worried that if I upgraded the tires first and got all that extra grip, I'd end up overwhelming the stock brakes and have to get a BBK right away.

I'm thinking more and more that I'm just going to bite the bullet sooner rather than later here. One of the reasons I passed on the BMW CCA event at CotA next month is because I heard my instructor running his E36 M3 for one day out there with Driver's Edge went through 40% of his brake pads. Since I don't swap my own pads (though I would with the awesome mechanism in these StopTechs), I realized that in addition to the $600 registration fee, I'd have to pay a mechanic to install new pads immediately prior to the event and then reinstall my previous pads immediately after, and that was just more than I wanted to spend. But if a BBK requires pad swaps less frequently due to increased area AND makes it so easy to DIY, that wouldn't be a major concern for me. Damn, now I wish I'd signed up!!

[Porschefile]

I have ST60 front and stock rear brakes. The Stoptech street performance pads are plenty of power and fade resistance, and are quite cheap. The downside is the feel is worse than a good PFC/Pagid pad, but overall it is tough to beat the ST pads with ST60 setup.

I even ran that setup on slicks (not r comps, conti slicks) and it was totally fine.

[jphughan]

^ Cool! Yeah since I posted this thread I'm coming across several people who mention that the Street Performance pads (which I'm running now in the OEM brake system) become feasible on the track even for advanced drivers when they're used in a BBK. Since I primarily run TWS which is relatively brake-friendly, in that case I'll probably just continue using those pads in the BBK to start, but I still wouldn't mind input on the mixed pad setup and which full-time rear option would be best in case I want to upgrade the fronts but don't want to deal with swapping the rears out every time.

[FormulaMMM]

You'll be fine with a BBK up front w/ race pad, and stock rears with a semi-aggressive street pad.

I've got a front ST40 kit with Pagid RS29 in combination with stock rear and Cool Carbons. No complaints whatsoever over 6-7 events and a year + of driving -- great setup.

Just replaced the worn rear Cool Carbons with Stoptech Street Performance. I didn't find the rear pad swap to be very difficult. Not as easy as with the front Stoptech kit, but no ordeal, and you probably won't be doing it very often.

Ran the above combination on street and track year around, by the way.

[Porschefile]

Originally Posted by jphughan

^ Cool! Yeah since I posted this thread I'm coming across several people who mention that the Street Performance pads (which I'm running now in the OEM brake system) become feasible on the track even for advanced drivers when they're used in a BBK. Since I primarily run TWS which is relatively brake-friendly, in that case I'll probably just continue using those pads in the BBK to start, but I still wouldn't mind input on the mixed pad setup and which full-time rear option would be best in case I want to upgrade the fronts but don't want to deal with swapping the rears out every time.

I also ran mixed pads and that was fine too. It affects bias somewhat, but it isn't an issue at all unless you trail brake a lot, and even then it isn't that big of a deal. But my vote is street performance pads unless you're racing or something.

[Richard@M-World]

I run a front BBK only and it is completely fine to mix pads as long as you are happy with the brake bias. Keep an eye on whether one axle kicks in ABS sooner than others.

[Jaypod]

Originally Posted by Richard@M-World

I run a front BBK only and it is completely fine to mix pads as long as you are happy with the brake bias.

+1

I run a full BBK, but I leave the rear street pads in for track days. Just swap the front pads. This was recommended to me by someone who was at Stillen at the time a few years back when the mintex rear pads werent available. I like the bias so have never bothered to switch.

[MEHP]

If you go to a brake-friendly track anyways, have you ever thought about brake-cooling first? That might help you as well. I know that some drivers at the Ring (Nordschleife and GP) and Hockenheim have done that and are pretty happy with the brakes now. That plus Michelin Pilot Sport Cup (or whatever you might think about) and a bit more agressive pads should give you a benefit in the braking and keep the temperatures much lower as the temperatures and fading are an issue on said tracks for the M392. Plus, that would cost much less, I guess. Just an idea...

[dmw16]

I'll also say it might be worth learning to swap brake pads (oem or stoptech). It's great to be able to do basic stuff on your own. I know the guys I've met at the track would be more than happy to teach you and I'm sure the local guys near you are the same way.

To reinforce the front only BBK there's a guy I met at Summit Point who has fully caged and totally stripped out E92 M3 that he runs r-comps on with a BBK up front and stock calipers on the back. He had Stoptechs at all 4 corners but took the back ones off in favor of the stocks. That pretty much says it all.

[jphughan]

Great information here, thanks so much everyone! Good to know "street plus" pads in the rear would be fine on track days if I end up wanting to step up to a full track pad up front. I was actually hoping for that option over running full-time track rears due to noise and cold bite concerns on the road with those pads.

I do intend to learn to swap brake pads myself since the DIY here looks straightforward enough (need to buy a few tools first though), but if a mixed setup would work, then I figure I may as well save time and (a little) cash by not maintaining two sets of rear pads. But I'll try the Street Performance pads all around with the BBK first since it seems even more advanced HPDE drivers are finding that sufficient.

Good suggestion about brake ducting, but I'm avoiding that because the only ways I've found to do that on the E92 seem to be some combination of relatively ineffective, ugly, and/or expensive. It also doesn't look as easily reversible as a BBK if I want to return my car to bone stock in the future for whatever reason.

Thanks again, this has been very reassuring.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by jphughan

But I'll try the Street Performance pads all around with the BBK first since it seems even more advanced HPDE drivers are finding that sufficient.

I know that many have found the Street Performance pads in combination with the BBK adequate for track use. Believe that most of them have since moved on to race pads though.

If I were you I wouldn't screw around. Can't beat a legit race/endurance pad up front like a Pagid RS29. Performance will be far superior, and they'll probably last 3-4x longer than the SP, making the initial price difference null.

I used SP pads up front at Road America years ago. Performance was pretty good, but I ended up with deposits galore and the pads were basically shot after 1 day.

If you talk with some of the most informed on the subject like Zeckhausen, they'll probably tell you that you're "cheating" a bit with an aggressive street pad on the rear. I just wouldn't compromise on the fronts -- you won't regret doing it right. You're already spending upwards of $2k for the kit, budget the ~$300 for the race pads as well to achieve truly awesome performance.

[jphughan]

^ Makes sense. I'm definitely open to spending more to get better pads if that turns out to be necessary at TWS, but we'll see how it goes. After all, I'm still on PSS tires and working my way up the run groups (just got promoted to Yellow). I'm hoping the PFC08s become more commonly available in ST60 fitment, because right now it seems only Zeckhausen carries and they cost a whopping $582, which is a far cry from $125 for the StopTech pads in ST60 fitment.

[dmw16]

Originally Posted by jphughan

^ Makes sense. I'm definitely open to spending more to get better pads if that turns out to be necessary at TWS, but we'll see how it goes. After all, I'm still on PSS tires and working my way up the run groups (just got promoted to Yellow). I'm hoping the PFC08s become more commonly available in ST60 fitment, because right now it seems only Zeckhausen carries and they cost a whopping $582, which is a far cry from $125 for the StopTech pads in ST60 fitment.

What about the PFC01's or the Pagid RS29's?

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by dmw16

What about the PFC01's or the Pagid RS29's?

They're on my list of pads to consider since I've read great things about them. I'm curious about the PFC08s primarily because from what I'm reading they seem to have almost as much bite as the 01s but have better modulation characteristics, are gentler on rotors, and last a lot longer. I've also read that PFC pads overall seem to create fewer issues with pad deposits when swapping between road and track pads and aren't as picky about proper bed-in compared to the Pagids, which is why I'd probably try them first. But if I don't like them them Pagid would definitely be where I'd go next.

EDIT: Just discovered this thread (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=785993) about new StopTech track pads, and BigJae has positive impressions. Time to add yet another to my potential list....

[armyav8tor]

jphughan, you are on the right path. I run PFC BBK w/ PFC01s in front and StopTech Street Performance on stock rears in the Black/Advanced group at VIR. I picked Street Performance pads because I'm lazy and don't feel like having to change pads on all four corners so the rears are untouched for the track. To be honest, before switching over to the ST pads, I ran OEM pads in the rear for the same reason listed above. The rears don't do shit for me, seems like the braking is all done up front. Now I am no professional, it is all intuitive for me so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by jphughan

EDIT: Just discovered this thread (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=785993) about new StopTech track pads, and BigJae has positive impressions. Time to add yet another to my potential list....

I've got the Stoptech SR32s paired with my ST40 kit now. Just installed a couple of weeks back. Was really happy with the RS29s, but wanted to try something else and am looking for (hopefully) a bit more initial bite.

Have my first event with them on Sunday -- will post impressions vs RS29s.

[gottagofast13]

Originally Posted by jphughan

They're on my list of pads to consider since I've read great things about them. I'm curious about the PFC08s primarily because from what I'm reading they seem to have almost as much bite as the 01s but have better modulation characteristics, are gentler on rotors, and last a lot longer. I've also read that PFC pads overall seem to create fewer issues with pad deposits when swapping between road and track pads and aren't as picky about proper bed-in compared to the Pagids, which is why I'd probably try them first. But if I don't like them them Pagid would definitely be where I'd go next.

EDIT: Just discovered this thread (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=785993) about new StopTech track pads, and BigJae has positive impressions. Time to add yet another to my potential list....

Although my experience on PFC pads is mainly on E30s/E36s/E46s, I think it still applies here. The PFC 01s are great, and I'll definitely agree that the 08s modulate a little better. The 08s will last you 3-4x as long, their stopping power/torque seems to be 95% of what the 01s are, and they are friendly to rotors. I think the 08s are the ultimate HPDE track pad/race enduro pad.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by armyav8tor

jphughan, you are on the right path. I run PFC BBK w/ PFC01s in front and StopTech Street Performance on stock rears in the Black/Advanced group at VIR. I picked Street Performance pads because I'm lazy and don't feel like having to change pads on all four corners so the rears are untouched for the track. To be honest, before switching over to the ST pads, I ran OEM pads in the rear for the same reason listed above. The rears don't do shit for me, seems like the braking is all done up front. Now I am no professional, it is all intuitive for me so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt.

Excellent! Yeah I figure now that I've given up on OEM pads I may as well keep the Street Performance pads in the rear. I'm giving up "free" (i.e. pre-paid) brake pads under Ultimate Service, but if it saves me shudder/warp issues, then it's worth it. Plus I'd probably only get one set of rear pads in 4 years / 50K miles anyway, if that. Thanks!

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

I've got the Stoptech SR32s paired with my ST40 kit now. Just installed a couple of weeks back. Was really happy with the RS29s, but wanted to try something else and am looking for (hopefully) a bit more initial bite.

Have my first event with them on Sunday -- will post impressions vs RS29s.

Definitely looking forward to this, especially given the enormous cost margin compared to the PFC08s in ST60 fitment. I can't believe they're $582! I guess I'll just have to wait until the SR pads have been on the market longer and more broadly adopted to find out how the wear rates compare. I did find this thread that suggested the SR34s might wear out very quickly, though (http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=815445), so on a per-mile basis the PFC08 cost may not be too far off. It's also sounding like the SR33 or 32 may be worth investigating as well. Decisions, decisions....

Originally Posted by gottagofast13

Although my experience on PFC pads is mainly on E30s/E36s/E46s, I think it still applies here. The PFC 01s are great, and I'll definitely agree that the 08s modulate a little better. The 08s will last you 3-4x as long, their stopping power/torque seems to be 95% of what the 01s are, and they are friendly to rotors. I think the 08s are the ultimate HPDE track pad/race enduro pad.

Exactly what I was hoping to hear, thanks!!

[apecush]

I run PFC-06 in front and street performance in the rear. Stock brakes, no bias or heat/fade issues on the two different tracks I've run on (one track with back to back 140 - 20 MPH stops). Melted the crap out of the front brake seals though...

[bigjae1976]

I would put some decent race pads on the rear to help your very expensive ST60 pads last longer.