E90 M3 delivered - doesn't have options stated by dealer

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by UPSROD

Most dealers have a disclaimer concerning their ads...most are made up by an independent source. The idiot that does all of the Auto Nation dealers lists ALL of the 2013 e92 M3's as Lime Rocks...no mater what color or options!

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=150958205

disclaimers doesn't do shit in an UDAP lawsuit. You can disclaim the shit out of anything and depending on the product you're selling, there may be precedence set that a test for deception in advertising is that an act doesn't have to be intentional for it to be deceptive and/or a misleading act may not be cured by truthful disclosures. Fine print cannot correct conspicuous statement.


This is the case if you're selling financial products in UDA(A)P situations, not sure how the precedence is set for physical consumer products like cars.

[-BEASTMW-]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

yeah, but you have to see, it's not about what it's worth to you. It's about how much it'll cost to get you what you want to make you whole, which is a comparable car. How much it's worth to you is "greed" as it is not concrete and allows a wide range of discretion in assigning value.

It's probably worth $1k to me, but who knows, it's worth $10k to someone else? Generally, the best way is to say, look here's a comparable car with the feature, and it costs $1.5k more, therefore, the difference in value of what they misrepresented is $1.5k.

If I were the dealer and you started talking about "value to you", I would just take it back, b/c that's the cheapest, cleanest, least time consuming way of resolving the issue. Might have to pay you for the cost of shipping it to you.

BTW, if this does to into litigation, the judge and defense will probably test to see if you're a "reasonable consumer". And based on your activities on this thread, they can judge that you have some fault for not doing your due diligence and therefore claw back some of your monetary claims. You've even admitted that you've ran the VIN, posted it on this forum and realized you didn't run down the list and ask questions. That shows some sophistication in terms of ability to do diligence. Oh btw, the fact that posted on this forum and if you decide to remove you prior posts and they found out it's b/c of this discussion, then that's obstruction....so...tread lightly at this point if you think this will go into litigation.

But who is at fault for this issue? Me, for not looking up the VIN myself and manually cross-checking and translating every single item in cryptic language? Or the dealer, for listing a package and it's specific features that aren't actually on the car?

They're selling the car, and they, as a BMW dealer with additional internal resources, have the car physically there and can confirm (easily, I might add), whether the car has the features they claim a lot more easily than I can, 2,100 miles away. What if I was not a fairly car/tech savvy buyer and instead a more typical buyer like my dad, who doesn't know every last detail about the option packages of a used BMW or how to look up the VIN? The whole point of my other thread you referenced was trying to decode whether or not I had Bluetooth calling functionality, as there are 4-5 related option codes and they changed option packages multiple times just in that one model year. It's not as simple as seeing "Convenience Package" listed or not listed, like on a window sticker.

In regards to finding a comparable car, good luck finding a same-year, similar condition/mileage, 6MT slicktop ZCP sedan, with all other options the same, in a similarly desirable color combo, with a similar transaction price (since asking price is meaningless), in order to isolate the value of only these specific options. It's statistically impossible. Start with the 400 or so ZCP manual sedans in North America and then filter by the criteria above, and take out the ~90% that are not currently for sale. Again - completely impossible to isolate other variables.

[-BEASTMW-]

Also, how is taking the car back the cheapest and cleanest way out? They have to pay for shipping both ways ($2k), take the car in again, clean it up, post the ads, resell it, refund me the money and unwind the paperwork... Vs just cutting me a check for some agreed amount (less than what shipping would cost) and be done with it.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

But who is at fault for this issue? Me, for not looking up the VIN myself and manually cross-checking and translating every single item in cryptic language? Or the dealer, for listing a package and it's specific features that aren't actually on the car?

They're selling the car, and they, as a BMW dealer with additional internal resources, have the car physically there and can confirm (easily, I might add), whether the car has the features they claim a lot more easily than I can, 2,100 miles away. What if I was not a fairly car/tech savvy buyer and instead a more typical buyer like my dad, who doesn't know every last detail about the option packages of a used BMW or how to look up the VIN? The whole point of my other thread you referenced was trying to decode whether or not I had Bluetooth calling functionality, as there are 4-5 related option codes and they changed option packages multiple times just in that one model year. It's not as simple as seeing "Convenience Package" listed or not listed, like on a window sticker.

In regards to finding a comparable car, good luck finding a same-year, similar condition/mileage, 6MT slicktop ZCP sedan, with all other options the same, in a similarly desirable color combo, with a similar transaction price (since asking price is meaningless), in order to isolate the value of only these specific options. It's statistically impossible. Start with the 400 or so ZCP manual sedans in North America and then filter by the criteria above, and take out the ~90% that are not currently for sale. Again - completely impossible to isolate other variables.

No one is debating whether they were at fault for deception, but you may be assessed to be sophisticated and have some burden of doing diligence on your end, especially since you've shown that you had the ability to dive deeper than the average consumer by running a BMW VIN decoder and seeking an enthusiast forum for opinions. Again, you have to look at precedence set by similar litigations for similar consumer products to test these cases. This is how deceptive acts and practices are assessed in the legal sense.


Taking the car back is the cheapest b/c they don't have to deal with ligation which with lawyer fees can add up, if means paying you $1k for your delivery cost and $1k to get that car back, they wipe their hands clean of their civil mess with you. They'll elect for that if especially if it's evident they'll have to take the car back sooner or later. They'd just rather choose sooner as they can at least still sell the car. In some of these cases that can last a year, lawyer fees can add up to $10k per litigation. Sure they might have to deal with an actual violation of advertising law (state and/or federal), but they're at least out of 1 civil litigation with you at the cost of $2k. They know they got to pay for something, they'll just opt for the least costly option as any rational business owner would do.

Again finding a comparable with hard numbers isn't difficult. Worst case, they go to the legacy build sheets, and just offer the MSRP of CA as an add-on option...which is probably $2500k IIRC.

If I were the dealer that's how I would approach it, offer you $2500 or whatever the buildsheet MSRP was for CA, or offer to give you $1k and arrange to pick up the car and refund you.

[-BEASTMW-]

Well, I'm not going to get into a legal mess over this. At the end of the day, both parties are being cooperative thus far, and we're talking about a couple of convenience features, not a car that has like twice as many miles as they said. A reasonable settlement is fine with me and it sounds like they are willing to negotiate with me on that. Now I just have to determine how to assign a value to it. If they are unwilling to accept a certain value then their other agreed upon option is to buy it back, but I'm confident we can come to a middle ground.

[Flying Ace]

^ yes, good for you. That's why I said, and you agree, just be reasonable. But I'm guessing they likely will balk at anything north of $2k or so...just a hunch b/c that would be the approximate cost of getting the car back.

[-BEASTMW-]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

Again finding a comparable with hard numbers isn't difficult. Worst case, they go to the legacy build sheets, and just offer the MSRP of CA as an add-on option...which is probably $2500k IIRC.

I doubt CA was that much. I'm pretty sure the whole Convenience Pkg was no more than that, in fact. You also have to figure in some depreciation IMO - the rest of the car is only worth like 60% of original value, so it's not appropriate to value CA at 2011 retail. Unfortunately, retrofitting would probably cost something close to that, esp when you add the alarm also.

[-BEASTMW-]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

^ yes, good for you. That's why I said, and you agree, just be reasonable. But I'm guessing they likely will balk at anything north of $2k or so...just a hunch b/c that would be the approximate cost of getting the car back.

Assuming their estimate of a factory alarm install comes in around $500, I was thinking $1-1.5k total. Another factor is when I sell the car, I can't advertise "Convenience Pkg" which will decrease value and even be a deal-breaker for some.

[Flying Ace]

^yeah see there you have it. You're reasonable. You even give them the benefit of 60% depreciation on equipment. I would have just tossed the MSRP option price, express how disappointed you are and see if it sticks and jump at any number close to $2k, b/c it sounds like you kind of still want the car.

[-BEASTMW-]

I try to be

I was able to track down options and pricing on Motor Trend. Convenience Pkg was $2,900 and CA was not available as a standalone option. This guy got most of the stuff individually incl Nav and PDC, which together were $2,480, so it's annoying he didn't spring for the extra $420 to get CA and an alarm. I haven't even checked if it has iPod or not, which would make the difference even smaller (iPod was $400...).

[CSBM5]

Couple of things...don't fall for the dealer's BS that they couldn't "look it up" given the way the car was delivered in Germany first. That is simply a lie or a purely ignorant person since *every* BMW manufactured can easily be looked up via the VIN to show the exact options/feature the car was built with as I did in the other thread to see what was up with Bluetooth on your potential car versus mine. County of origin of original sale is irrelevant. They guessed and/or were negligent and ended up misrepresenting a car.

Second, I know precisely what you're going through in the hunt having been immersed in it 4 years back. Trying to find a 6MT slicktop E90 M3 with the options I wanted was very hard and only later did I find out I was hunting within a market of about 180 total cars imported (2011 E90 6MT no-sunroof). CA is really easy to get used to, and since we had owned my wife's 2006 E90 330i since new with CA (we ordered the car), I knew she didn't want a car without it. Heck, just recently I bought an E91 and one reason I jumped on the car I did was it had CA, and CA is really rare on E91s for whatever reason.

You can retrofit CA, but I wonder if many dealers have the ability/desire to undertake such a task; however, it's worth getting a quote to do so from your dealer to give to the selling dealer. An E90post board member just successfully retrofit CA, and it's documented in this thread. Somehow he was even able to have the CA added to his official build sheet (that part is almost more impressive ). It's not "that hard" to do from the looks of it in his thread...pretty basic stuff, just have to attend to the details. So don't let them tell you it "can't be done." I know a couple of guys locally that could bang this out on a Saturday-fun-shop-day.

Good luck, sounds like a great car.

Regards,
Chuck

[SSJTrunks523]

OP - my car was purchased from out of state (1k miles away) and was an armed forces "us spec shipped to customer at deployment" for the original owner.

I was told that they might not be able to find the original sale info because of this. 30 seconds later I had it in my hand. Just an fyi.

[-BEASTMW-]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Couple of things...don't fall for the dealer's BS that they couldn't "look it up" given the way the car was delivered in Germany first. That is simply a lie or a purely ignorant person since *every* BMW manufactured can easily be looked up via the VIN to show the exact options/feature the car was built with as I did in the other thread to see what was up with Bluetooth on your potential car versus mine. County of origin of original sale is irrelevant. They guessed and/or were negligent and ended up misrepresenting a car.

Second, I know precisely what you're going through in the hunt having been immersed in it 4 years back. Trying to find a 6MT slicktop E90 M3 with the options I wanted was very hard and only later did I find out I was hunting within a market of about 180 total cars imported (2011 E90 6MT no-sunroof). CA is really easy to get used to, and since we had owned my wife's 2006 E90 330i since new with CA (we ordered the car), I knew she didn't want a car without it. Heck, just recently I bought an E91 and one reason I jumped on the car I did was it had CA, and CA is really rare on E91s for whatever reason.

You can retrofit CA, but I wonder if many dealers have the ability/desire to undertake such a task; however, it's worth getting a quote to do so from your dealer to give to the selling dealer. An E90post board member just successfully retrofit CA, and it's documented in this thread. Somehow he was even able to have the CA added to his official build sheet (that part is almost more impressive ). It's not "that hard" to do from the looks of it in his thread...pretty basic stuff, just have to attend to the details. So don't let them tell you it "can't be done." I know a couple of guys locally that could bang this out on a Saturday-fun-shop-day.

Good luck, sounds like a great car.

Regards,
Chuck

Thanks. I remember you well from m5board! Had my E39 M5 for 6.5 years and absolutely adored it. But at least initially, it seems like this car may even take that to another level!

Where did you get the production stats for slicktop manual ZCP sedans? If you apply percentages of manuals and slicktops to the 1,220 North American ZCP sedans, you get to roughly that number - just wondering if you had a more accurate source. I wasn't dead set on slicktop but it was a definite plus.

Originally Posted by SSJTrunks523

OP - my car was purchased from out of state (1k miles away) and was an armed forces "us spec shipped to customer at deployment" for the original owner.

I was told that they might not be able to find the original sale info because of this. 30 seconds later I had it in my hand. Just an fyi.

How did you get the info? Yeah, the guy tried to use that explanation, but I pointed out that I did a simple VIN lookup and was able to tell, and they also could have easily figured it out with the car in their possession considering, you know, it doesn't unlock or start with the key in your pocket....

[Richbot]

Lack of comfort access is a feature not a bug:

http://www.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486031
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473150
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...keyless-entry/

I don't have CA but to be sure I turned off my keyless entry and now climb in and out through the trunk

[dparm]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

Had no idea, and didn't really look for it specifically because the option codes can be fairly cryptic, so I took their word for it. Since I knew it had most of the other Convenience Pkg items, I didn't really think to cross reference every individual option to confirm that. Guess this is one pitfall of buying sight unseen.

Comfort access appears as such:

S322A KOMFORTZUGANG Comfort access

[EJT86]

Your best bet is to act like its a deal breaker. If you are unwilling to send the car back then you actually do not have them by the balls and they will sniff that out real quick. Your best bet is to go about it like you fully intend on retrofitting the car and get 1 or 2 written estimates for the work. Don't forget it's not just CA parts someone's getting paid to do the actual work too! Or go on BMW website build an M3/4 and see how much CA costs use that number and get a quote on how many hours to perform the install that will be a slight over estimate but work out something close to that

[M3Bimmer77]

Your going to be swimming against an 80 knot current.

Once again an experience of a bad service from the STEALERS and used cars team. They are the worst!!!!! This is a typical mistake of both sides. Buyer: never trust a used car salesman (NEVER, NEVER, NEVER). Seller: they have no idea what's listed and the specs on the cars they are selling. The bad side: most of the time the SREALERS win.

Being the devils advocate. Dealer will offer you to take the car back or to fix it if they are willing to. If you choose the buyback option they won't reimburse some fees , but they will use the sales tax towards another car and maybe waive the dealer fee and "credit" the delivery into the new car.

I was in your situation once and that's what they offer me. I even went to the headquarters of the dealership!!! BMWna won't do nothing. I wanted to return the car but I was going o loose a lot.

Sent by the General Manager of a Fla BMW dealer:

"Here is a breakdown of your transaction:

Selling Price $43,500
Tire and Wheel policy $1,489– can be cancelled and will be pro-rated by insurance company – estimated refund $1,300
Sales tax - $2,741.28 – not refundable but can be applied if vehicle is traded in for another car – sales tax credit is given for the trade in amount
Plate fee - $422.95 – not refundable but you keep plate for future vehicle
Dealer Fee - $699 – we will refund
DOC stamps - $170.10 – not refundable

Total - $49022.33
Less deposit $500

Total Financed - $48,522.33

X BMW will refund purchase price of $43,500 plus the dealer fee of $699

$44,199 less miles driven over 24517 at delivery @.25 cents". That was after 3-4 months of emails and phone calls.

If they buy back: you loose
If they fix the car: they loose.

Guess what's going to Happen?

I really wish you the best. It's going to be a tough one. Normally they have the disclaimer that the dealer will do everything possible to describe the car but it's to the buyer to verify. I think that's BS but that's how it works. We loose every time!!!!

Good luck

[whats77inaname]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

I asked them to give me an estimate on how much $ to retrofit a factory alarm system (is it true you can buy a kit for this? How hard is that to DIY install?)

Having done it, it wasn't hard at all. It should take you about an hour, if that. Then you'll have to get it coded. The thing is....I'm not sure if your car *is* pre-wired for it. For some reason I remember 2008/2009s IIRC *were*, then BMW stopped doing it.

IF you need to retrofit the alarm AND the wiring, you'll need this:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...1&postcount=22

If you just need the install information, you'll need this:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1487

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by -BEASTMW-

Thanks. I remember you well from m5board! Had my E39 M5 for 6.5 years and absolutely adored it. But at least initially, it seems like this car may even take that to another level!

Where did you get the production stats for slicktop manual ZCP sedans? If you apply percentages of manuals and slicktops to the 1,220 North American ZCP sedans, you get to roughly that number - just wondering if you had a more accurate source. I wasn't dead set on slicktop but it was a definite plus.

How did you get the info? Yeah, the guy tried to use that explanation, but I pointed out that I did a simple VIN lookup and was able to tell, and they also could have easily figured it out with the car in their possession considering, you know, it doesn't unlock or start with the key in your pocket....

Yeah, I still have the M5 after all these years, but I'm pondering selling it soon as it hardly is ever driven. At least it's appreciated a good bit over the past 5 years or so.

My number was a total swag estimate, but it wasn't for ZCP 6MT rather it was a guess at the total 2011 models with 6MT and no sunroof. I used the ratios for sunroof or not for the LCI production into the USA (2009-2011) which is 26.5% delivered with no sunroof. I then made the assumption that this ratio was similar for 2011 (reasonable, esp given how much 2011 production is already as a percent of LCI). Similarly, the 6MT ratio for LCI E90s is 29%.

Given the above, I just swagged it using total production of 2011 E90 M3 of 2170 cars (2170 * 0.265) gives 575 2011s with no sunroof. If we assume the 6MT uptake is similar across roof/no-roof, then I took 575 * 0.29 giving ~167 2011s with 6MT and no sunroof.

Note that the combinations can't be added like this on down the line (i.e. taking the ZCP option stats and trying to overlay that now) since the potential combinations skyrockets.

The above should be close for 6MT with no sunroof totals, but isn't exact clearly.

[monterey]

I don't know, i think both buyer and seller is at fault. If i was actually buying a car i would definitely look up the vin to see what it has before i buy it. Dealers always list wrong information. I drove 60 miles to look at a car that they advertised as manual only to find that it was DCT. When i got there they said DCT is manual. Then i said why are some of your cars listed as dct and some manual? I noticed they changed the description the next day.

[Wilsel]

Just curious if it was Husker BMW in Nebraska?

[-BEASTMW-]

It does appear they stopped pre-wiring for alarms in 02/09. The salesman confirmed that the kit ($308) would not work with my car.

I asked him for $1,500 via email, we'll see what he says. I pointed out that last year I rented a shitty Nissan Sentra and it had keyless locks/ignition, so selling this car down the road without that feature will likely be more difficult.

They already proposed either a buyback (incl reimbursing shipping) or settling for a dollar amount, so they are fully cooperating so far.

Originally Posted by Wilsel

Just curious if it was Husker BMW in Nebraska?

No. Dealer is near Chicago.