BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Engine, Transmission, Exhaust, Drivetrain, ECU Software Modifications
 
European Auto Source (EAS)
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-29-2009, 02:33 AM   #1
tightie
JOSH SHOKRI.
tightie's Avatar
United_States
473
Rep
5,880
Posts

Drives: 991 GT3RS, 964, Raptor
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: los angeles, california.

iTrader: (7)

Garage List
2008 BMW M3  [3.95]
New Dyno: Gpower SKII Supercharger

I had a chance to head over to Gintanti today and had my car dynoed.

We did three pulls but keep in mind that it was 106 today in the valley.

These runs were done in 98F.

Best run:
471 HP
345 TQ

Dyno Dynmics

Thank Alex for staying later so we can dyno my car.

I wish it was colder so I could get higher numbers



I will try to get my hands on a scanner this week and upload the image better.

- Josh
__________________
Current: 16 991 GT3RS , 91 964 C2, 17 Raptor | Past: 2015 991 GT3, 2015 i3,15 YMB F80 M3, 13 E92 M3 DCT, 08 E92 M3 6MT, 07 E60 M5, 02 E46 M3
Instagram: @josh_speeddistrict #SpeedDistrict @SpeedDistrict
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 02:38 AM   #2
powertrip
Scared money don't make money.
powertrip's Avatar
57
Rep
1,449
Posts

Drives: 2009 E92 M3 DCT
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Irvine, CA

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2009 E92 M3  [0.00]
Congrats brotha, that's a fairly low reading dyno too .
__________________
2009 E92 M3/DCT/Alpine White/Fox Red/Carbon Leather
OE Tuned 402 whp & 303 wtq/Gintani X-pipe/MXP Axle Back/Rogue Pulley/AFE Stage 2/Cosmetics By IND & EAS
HUGE THANKS: Gintani, OE Tuning, and EAS
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 02:41 AM   #3
Eugene-TAIWAN
Brigadier General
Eugene-TAIWAN's Avatar
Taiwan
234
Rep
3,158
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Taiwan

iTrader: (4)

yep , a cold weather is needed.
__________________

Past: Gintani stage3 M3, Cayman GTS
present: Porsche 993RWB, 964RS America,996 cupcar, 964 turbo 3.6,Macan Turbo,997GT2,930 turbo,i3, MINI JCW
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 04:14 AM   #4
mixja
Captain
United_States
41
Rep
783
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 DCT Silverstone
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Beverly Hils, CA

iTrader: (1)

How much boost are you running?
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 04:16 AM   #5
TheKosherStogie
Lieutenant Colonel
TheKosherStogie's Avatar
United_States
302
Rep
1,814
Posts

Drives: 08 M3 DCT AW/Red
Join Date: May 2009
Location: West Hollywood

iTrader: (1)

wow...that pretty damn good....especially w/ weather.. im must of missed you...i was over there at` 130pm... wish i could of watched ...also how much boost you running now?
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 05:31 AM   #6
MrHarris
yodog
MrHarris's Avatar
United_States
169
Rep
5,029
Posts

Drives: '86 Corolla
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Diamond Bar, Ca

iTrader: (5)

Garage List
2009 BMW  [5.00]
Send a message via AIM to MrHarris
Good numbers considering the temperature. My car feels like it lost 50hp when it's 100degrees outside like it has been.
__________________

2009 E92 M3 | Alpine White | Black Extended | Advan RS | Turner Test Pipes | Dinan Axle-Back | OETuning | Eibach Springs | UUC SSK | VRS Front Lip | VRS Type I Diffuser | Matte Black | RPi Scoops | MS Filter | Yokohama AD08 | F1 Pinnacle
Special Thanks: Gintani | OETuning | eAs
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 10:40 AM   #7
sales@ESSTuning
sales@ESSTuning's Avatar
363
Rep
3,149
Posts

Drives: ESS M3 / M4
Join Date: May 2007
Location: AZ

iTrader: (6)

Nice congrats
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 12:34 PM   #8
Nate@IND
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Nate@IND's Avatar
2609
Rep
11,365
Posts


Drives: BMW
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (19)

Good power for that temp
__________________
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 12:38 PM   #9
emesdub
Private First Class
United_States
24
Rep
180
Posts

Drives: F10 M5
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SoCal 714

iTrader: (0)

given the weather and the 'heart-break' dyno, those are some nice numbers.
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 12:58 PM   #10
ersin
Brigadier General
ersin's Avatar
United_States
116
Rep
4,146
Posts

Drives: 17 YMB F80 M3
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (1)

I read everyone talking about the heat. Higher temp = lower density air => less power. However, the whole reason forced induction (back in the early days when it was invented for aircraft) was increase the air density. So the temperature for a forced induction engine (super or turbo charged) should not make much of a difference in power delivery. There is a chance of heat soak the higher the temperature, but other than that how much of a difference could 100 degree temperatures make on an SC engine?

Don't get me wrong, 470+ whp is great, I'm not trying to downplay the numbers. But I doubt it will get much better on a cold day.

Note that this argument won't apply to normally aspirated engines -- higher temperatures (and altitudes) make a significant power drop in NA engines.
__________________
2017 F80 YMB.
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 03:50 PM   #11
datbimmerdoe
Lieutenant General
datbimmerdoe's Avatar
United_States
1089
Rep
17,504
Posts

Drives: like I'M BOUT THAT LIFE
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: PARADISE aka CANES COUNTRY

iTrader: (0)

That's still good considering the temperature.
__________________
#datbimmerdoe #thatbimmertho

FOLLOW @datbimmerdoe on INSTAGRAM
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 10:00 PM   #12
m33
Banned
m33's Avatar
United_States
108
Rep
2,693
Posts

Drives: E92 VT650 MCB Individual
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: CT

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
I read everyone talking about the heat. Higher temp = lower density air => less power. However, the whole reason forced induction (back in the early days when it was invented for aircraft) was increase the air density. So the temperature for a forced induction engine (super or turbo charged) should not make much of a difference in power delivery. There is a chance of heat soak the higher the temperature, but other than that how much of a difference could 100 degree temperatures make on an SC engine?

Don't get me wrong, 470+ whp is great, I'm not trying to downplay the numbers. But I doubt it will get much better on a cold day.

Note that this argument won't apply to normally aspirated engines -- higher temperatures (and altitudes) make a significant power drop in NA engines.
you my friend have no idea on what your talking about !!!!
turbo and supercharged cars have a major enemy and its name is HEAT !!!
if he dynoed in 55 to 65 deg he would gain an other 25 to 35 whp ...
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 10:03 PM   #13
m33
Banned
m33's Avatar
United_States
108
Rep
2,693
Posts

Drives: E92 VT650 MCB Individual
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: CT

iTrader: (5)

your guarenteed a 5% loss of power when heat soaked
Appreciate 0
      08-29-2009, 10:33 PM   #14
stylinexpat
Major
stylinexpat's Avatar
336
Rep
1,383
Posts

Drives:
Join Date: Aug 2008

iTrader: (0)

Nice numbers congrats and enjoy the beast See you still got that small dip though in the lower RPM's Doesn't look as bad the dip the older 330's had with the supercharger on them.
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2009, 02:07 AM   #15
KiokenM3
Lieutenant Colonel
KiokenM3's Avatar
77
Rep
1,504
Posts

Drives: LIFTED JEEP JK!
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: LA

iTrader: (4)

nice #'s josh. how does it feel compared to your old setup?
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2009, 04:18 AM   #16
mixja
Captain
United_States
41
Rep
783
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 DCT Silverstone
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Beverly Hils, CA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
I read everyone talking about the heat. Higher temp = lower density air => less power. However, the whole reason forced induction (back in the early days when it was invented for aircraft) was increase the air density. So the temperature for a forced induction engine (super or turbo charged) should not make much of a difference in power delivery. There is a chance of heat soak the higher the temperature, but other than that how much of a difference could 100 degree temperatures make on an SC engine?

Don't get me wrong, 470+ whp is great, I'm not trying to downplay the numbers. But I doubt it will get much better on a cold day.

Note that this argument won't apply to normally aspirated engines -- higher temperatures (and altitudes) make a significant power drop in NA engines.
Disagree - superchargers increase air mass fed into the engine by compressing air (i.e. by increasing air pressure). When we talk 6PSI as an example, we are talking 6PSI above atmospheric pressure (i.e. a relative measure).

On a cold day, the air mass being fed at atmospheric pressure is greater than on a hot day (assuming all else is constant other than temperature). Because we have greater air mass at atmospheric pressure on the colder day, adding a supercharger running at 6PSI will result in greater output air mass than the same example on a hot day.

In other words, you'd need to run your supercharger at higher boost on a hot day to get the same amount of air mass (power) produced at a lower boost pressure on a cold day. Of course you've never actually do this because higher boost pressure will only cause higher intake temperatures already exacerbated by the higher air temperatures, causing a reduction in timing (and resulting loss in power) or detonation if timing is static.
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2009, 04:18 AM   #17
Jonmartin
Banned
Jonmartin's Avatar
United_States
91
Rep
2,097
Posts

Drives: E90 M3
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Los Angles (818)

iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to Jonmartin
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2009, 05:04 AM   #18
onefastdoc
Lieutenant
102
Rep
420
Posts

Drives: 2016 F80 M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: L.A.

iTrader: (2)

That's a great result. I'd love to get one of those. Still, it's hard to believe how much it costs to squeeze more hp out of our M3's. My old 335i made more torque than this G power blown M3 with only $600 in mods (a tune, intake, and race gas). The G power kit must be, what, $15K? This is probably the only thing that I don't like about in my M3, the ridiculous cost to obtain incremental gains in power. I guess I'll just have to get an old 2JZGTE Supra to satisfy my hp junkie needs.
__________________
OneFastDoc
2012 R35 GT-R Full Bolt On E85 (600whp)
2016 F80 M3
2008 E90 M3 sold
2007 E92 335i (369whp, 354wtq) sold
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2009, 06:34 AM   #19
xquizit
818
xquizit's Avatar
Iran
18
Rep
609
Posts

Drives: his parents crazy
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (0)

Send a message via AIM to xquizit
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
Disagree - superchargers increase air mass fed into the engine by compressing air (i.e. by increasing air pressure). When we talk 6PSI as an example, we are talking 6PSI above atmospheric pressure (i.e. a relative measure).

On a cold day, the air mass being fed at atmospheric pressure is greater than on a hot day (assuming all else is constant other than temperature). Because we have greater air mass at atmospheric pressure on the colder day, adding a supercharger running at 6PSI will result in greater output air mass than the same example on a hot day.

In other words, you'd need to run your supercharger at higher boost on a hot day to get the same amount of air mass (power) produced at a lower boost pressure on a cold day. Of course you've never actually do this because higher boost pressure will only cause higher intake temperatures already exacerbated by the higher air temperatures, causing a reduction in timing (and resulting loss in power) or detonation if timing is static.


kidding, i get it ;]
__________________

I miss my e90 330i
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2009, 09:02 AM   #20
Lemans_Blue_M
Automotive Industry Insider
Lemans_Blue_M's Avatar
United_States
459
Rep
1,948
Posts

Drives: Lemans Blue M3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixja View Post
Disagree - superchargers increase air mass fed into the engine by compressing air (i.e. by increasing air pressure). When we talk 6PSI as an example, we are talking 6PSI above atmospheric pressure (i.e. a relative measure).

On a cold day, the air mass being fed at atmospheric pressure is greater than on a hot day (assuming all else is constant other than temperature). Because we have greater air mass at atmospheric pressure on the colder day, adding a supercharger running at 6PSI will result in greater output air mass than the same example on a hot day.

In other words, you'd need to run your supercharger at higher boost on a hot day to get the same amount of air mass (power) produced at a lower boost pressure on a cold day. Of course you've never actually do this because higher boost pressure will only cause higher intake temperatures already exacerbated by the higher air temperatures, causing a reduction in timing (and resulting loss in power) or detonation if timing is static.
+1

Mixja is correct. A forced induction engine simply feeds the engine with air(positive pressure through a mechanical blower) instead of a vacuum approach used in a naturally aspirated engine.

The increased air mass produced by the supercharger produces will increase the HP & TRQ. This has nothing to do with air density.

The density of the air is dependent on three primary factors. (temperature, moisture (% humidity), and elevation) That is what determines how dense the air will be.

Forcing compressed air into the intake manifold (via centrifugal belt-driven blower), will by it's very nature create more heat. Hot air is naturally less dense, and it contains less oxygen than a cooler denser air. (assuming the same elevation and relative humidity)

Less % oxygen to burn = less power & torque. (for the same MASS air entering the engine)

There is no way around this basic truth. In fact, the more boost (MASS AIR) you attempt to run, the faster you will descend into heat soak. The larger mass of hot air will only create more heat in the combustion chamber as a by-product. The engine oil and water temperatures will become dangerously high, and the engine will shutdown to prevent catastrophic failure in extreme conditions. (via ECU programming) The heat that is being generated by compressing the air through mechanical means, must be shed prior to entering the intake manifold. (or there is going to be a problem)

Whether you use a FMIC (front mounted intercooler) or some type of Water-to-Air charge cooling system, that heat has to be neutralized or dissipated for the engine to make good consistent power. If not, the performance will continue to suffer. The engine will never perform up to it's full potential under those conditions, so simply increasing the boost would be counter-productive. The ECU will pull timing anyway, (once the combustion chamber temps get to high) so it's pointless to use this to compensate. There is no free lunch here.

When the outside air temperature (before entering the blower) is already extremely high, the prospects for making max power is not very realistic. The blower will only make things worse as it compresses the intake charge to create boost. (resulting in even more heat) The ECU will pull ignition timing to prevent detonation (knock), and you are going to lose 15-20% off your PEAK hp and trq numbers. (compared to the ideal air temperature dyno numbers) The difference is pretty dramatic on a forced induction car.

The blower is constantly generating heat, and if the environmental conditions are extreme enough (which appears to be the case in Jon Martin's dyno run) then the performance of the car will reflect that...

The air temperature in his dyno run was already pushing 100 degrees Fahrenheit...before he even started the car. That's a huge impediment to his performance right off the bat. That's also 30+ degrees higher than the ideal air temperature for making max power & trq. (~65 degrees Fahrenheit)
__________________
The best is yet to come...
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2009, 11:08 AM   #21
TOOMANYCARS
Second Lieutenant
TOOMANYCARS's Avatar
2
Rep
221
Posts

Drives: 2009 E92 M3
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: V.O.W

iTrader: (0)

Very impressive numbers, on a Dynojet, you would be over 500whp, congrats!
Appreciate 0
      08-30-2009, 11:44 AM   #22
J08M3
Major General
J08M3's Avatar
United_States
245
Rep
6,008
Posts

Drives: 2011 M3 COUPE
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NEW YORK

iTrader: (8)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ersin View Post
I read everyone talking about the heat. Higher temp = lower density air => less power. However, the whole reason forced induction (back in the early days when it was invented for aircraft) was increase the air density. So the temperature for a forced induction engine (super or turbo charged) should not make much of a difference in power delivery. There is a chance of heat soak the higher the temperature, but other than that how much of a difference could 100 degree temperatures make on an SC engine?

Don't get me wrong, 470+ whp is great, I'm not trying to downplay the numbers. But I doubt it will get much better on a cold day.

Note that this argument won't apply to normally aspirated engines -- higher temperatures (and altitudes) make a significant power drop in NA engines.
think intercoolers
__________________
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:14 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST