2008 E92 M3 Vanos problem HELP!

[acidandroid]

Hi people

My car’s got got some Vanos issues too at 40k miles only, trying to look for some comments or helps here.
I’ve searched and pretty much read all the post about other ppl’s cars’ vanos problem.
Don’t know why but seems that none of them really had a conclusive solution how it got fixed.

So here’s mine, below are list of codes I’m getting:
2762/275F/2761/2760 “Vanos maximum limit position” on all banks. So 4 of them.
271C Vanos control, intake bank 2
279D Power management, closed-circuit current violation
2B65 Idle controller, monitoring cold-start strategy
(should I be looking for other descriptions from different version of scanner??)

The car drives totally fine to me, sometimes I get a little rough idle, but nothing compared to my other tuned cars.
(one time I played with the throttle a bit during cold start, the motor bogs down and the motor rattles left and right, but it went away quickly)
I don’t feel obvious lack of power/torque compared to other M3s, but I could be wrong. (I’m the type who can only feel differences from 50+ hp)
I do feel the vanos kicks in at 3000~3500rpm. So it feels like it’s operating normally.

I bought the car used, and previous owner had the bearings replaced at dealer.
So I’m guessing the dealer didn’t do a good job on the timing.

So now I took my car to another shop to have the timing adjusted. All codes still exit.
He swapped out solenoid valves and all other things to eliminate, none did anything.
I’m to a point where he suggests to replace all 4 vanos adjustment units, the vanos gears I suppose.
They are super pricey!! Like $2000 a set of 4.

Am I on the right track? If replacing vanos adjustment units won’t do anything, I’m so gonna shoot myself. (actually shoot the mechanics)
Also is there rebuild kit for the vanos units?

[gobuffs]

Let me recap just so I can understand what you are saying...

You bought a used car and somewhere in the past (unknown mileage) the previous owner had the bearings (assume rod bearings) replaced. Now you are getting Vanos issues and you suspect the dealer that did the rod bearing issues mistimed the engine. So you went to another shop to adjust the timing.

Do I have that right? Did the dealer do another other work when they replaced the rod bearings?

IMO, replacing the vanos units is throwing good money away. I doubt it is a vanos issue at all. There is ZERO reason to any work on the top end that would affect timing or the vanos. I doubt the issue has anything to do with the vanos. I think the vanos code is a symptom, not the root cause. These vanos units are completely different than anything BMW has used before. I could easily remove the vanos on an S54 and retime them without issues. I have not gone that far on the S65 yet. Physically the 2 cam gears on the 2 cams are connected directly. Interesting the cams rotate in opposite directions. The vanos is inside the cam gear...not sure how it exactly works...but yes, you need to time the vanos...but if it was never changed then it shouldn't be out of adjustment. The 2nd shop should have been able to time the vanos per the factory instructions assuming they had the right tools.

I'd suspect the cam gear sensors...but 4 (or even one on each bank) being bad at the same time is unlikely. I'd also take a look at the throttle actuators.

[acidandroid]

Hey thanks so much!
The first shop (bmw dealer) I believe replaced main and rod bearings, which I thought taking apart almost everything is needed, that's why I suspect the cams are not timed correctly which caused the code. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one.

I also think the code could.be just a symptom as the car drives nothing like the vanos needs replacement, car drives strong! I think.

The shop swapped out all things he could think of, including cam sensors, but not one code is changed, that's why he suggests replacing the units,

That's why I'm here trying to get help to see if the shop ismissing anything before the vanos, yes like you said, it's like throwing money away!

Throttle actuator, ok, I'll check that out, other things?

[gobuffs]

If they replaced main bearings then yes, the timing could be affecred as the crank has to come out. I'd be surprised if they did that.

Did they swap cam sensors around or try a known good one?

I'd probably try a different ECU but doing that is a process and having one lying around is not likely.

[Shredicus]

Interesting... First dealership main bearing swap I've heard about.

[acidandroid]

i'm actually oversea, not in USA
i'm not sure if the dealer did the rod bearing, main bearing for sure, rod bearings seem a bit difficult for dealers here, so maybe they didn't

if dealer didn't change the rod bearings, then there could be other reason someone messed with the timing
but i think a bad timing should be a good guess since all 4 banks are showing codes, if it were particular part or sensor, all 4 going bad are less likely

but anyways, tried and swapped solenoid valves, cam sensors, and other things the shop knows, none changed a thing

throttle actuator: what's that to do with vanos? the vanos correlate with throttle position??
ECU: it's definately not a plug & play, that's to test if mine is a bad one?

[acidandroid]

also, my exhaust system is a AKRA GT4 stright pipe with Vorsteiner rear end
i'd think that would throw codes too, would swapping back to stock exhaust a good test?
not expecting it'll fix it, but maybe would throw other codes instead?
(from reading the forum, seems like this car throws weird codes from weird symptoms, complicated)

[acidandroid]

i mean, i searched the vanos adjustment unit (the gear looking thing), and found out turnermotorsport and ecs-tuning are selling them
they are around 500ish, was told they are re-manufactured units

if they are selling them, some people must have replaced these faulty parts
what was their problem? why they replaced the vanos? did it solve the problem??

if someone with similar symptom like me and replace them fixed it, then i'd like to try

anyone?

[acidandroid]

bump

[Mfanatik]

Originally Posted by gobuffs

Let me recap just so I can understand what you are saying...

You bought a used car and somewhere in the past (unknown mileage) the previous owner had the bearings (assume rod bearings) replaced. Now you are getting Vanos issues and you suspect the dealer that did the rod bearing issues mistimed the engine. So you went to another shop to adjust the timing.
Do I have that right? Did the dealer do another other work when they replaced the rod bearings?

IMO, replacing the vanos units is throwing good money away. I doubt it is a vanos issue at all. There is ZERO reason to any work on the top end that would affect timing or the vanos.

You mean bottom end?

I doubt the issue has anything to do with the vanos. I think the vanos code is a symptom, not the root cause.

I think so as well, well with the units being seized at least. There is definitely an issue with the system as a whole - could be the vanos system, could be oil pressure etc

These vanos units are completely different than anything BMW has used before.
Same tools as S85, same principle in the units. Its not new since S65, think of the S65 as the V10 with 2 less cylinders and no ionic stabilizers for ignition

I could easily remove the vanos on an S54 and retime them without issues. I have not gone that far on the S65 yet.

Physically the 2 cam gears on the 2 cams are connected directly. Interesting the cams rotate in opposite directions. The vanos is inside the cam gear...not sure how it exactly works...but yes, you need to time the vanos...but if it was never changed then it shouldn't be out of adjustment.
Food for thought, N5X is known for timing to become off due to worn camshaft and vanos components...never seen it on S motors though.

The 2nd shop should have been able to time the vanos per the factory instructions assuming they had the right tools.

I'd suspect the cam gear sensors...but 4 (or even one on each bank) being bad at the same time is unlikely. I'd also take a look at the throttle actuators.

You will get a code for it, they also have a common ground for all 4 sensors so if its a wiring thing then it would hop between 4 sensors sporadically (had this on my own E9X M3).

Not trying to rip you, but...just from my experience assembling a motor or 2 in my career, and trying to help the OP.

Are you sure there is proper oil pressure throughout the system? Is the cartridge for the oil filter in place? There is a tube in the middle CRUCIAL to oil pressure, this will cause vanos codes if it is not there. Make sure the O ring is there as well! Lack of O rings will affect it too. You will not get an oil pressure light necessarily, I know from fixing countless N5X for this issue.

Did he flush out the solenoids? If you'd like a set to try, I do have mint. Metal filings can go inside the solenoids compromising its ability to fully advance or retard the units.

If you want to work with what you have my advice is:

Ensure the cartridge for the oil filter has the inner portion in tact, with a good O ring in all locations
Remove and clean the solenoids with brake cleaner, flush them out as best as possible or get a set new, or used in mint condition with no filings (like mine!)
Re install units, and add an engine oil flush (Liqui moly makes a good product) *Note: Make sure you warm the engine up by driving the car to operating temp, dump in the flush and let it IDLE for 20min. Do NOT drive the car, drain immediately (if you want to be extra, drain and flush the oil cooler - although filings in a cooler is never always out when flushed).

Fill with fresh oil and report back.

I've saved customers thousands already with this procedure across all BMW platforms with vanos of similar design.

[gobuffs]

IMO, replacing the vanos units is throwing good money away. I doubt it is a vanos issue at all. There is ZERO reason to any work on the top end that would affect timing or the vanos.

You mean bottom end?

What I said was what I meant to say, however I can see how it is unclear.

I meant that there is nothing to do (on the top end or otherwise) in do rod bearings that will change the timing.

[acidandroid]

Originally Posted by Mfanatik

Are you sure there is proper oil pressure throughout the system? Is the cartridge for the oil filter in place? There is a tube in the middle CRUCIAL to oil pressure, this will cause vanos codes if it is not there. Make sure the O ring is there as well! Lack of O rings will affect it too. You will not get an oil pressure light necessarily, I know from fixing countless N5X for this issue.

Did he flush out the solenoids? If you'd like a set to try, I do have mint. Metal filings can go inside the solenoids compromising its ability to fully advance or retard the units.

If you want to work with what you have my advice is:

Remove and clean the solenoids with brake cleaner, flush them out as best as possible or get a set new, or used in mint condition with no filings (like mine!)
Re install units, and add an engine oil flush (Liqui moly makes a good product) *Note: Make sure you warm the engine up by driving the car to operating temp, dump in the flush and let it IDLE for 20min. Do NOT drive the car, drain immediately (if you want to be extra, drain and flush the oil cooler - although filings in a cooler is never always out when flushed).

Fill with fresh oil and report back.

I've saved customers thousands already with this procedure across all BMW platforms with vanos of similar design.

got tired of the car sitting in the shop for so long, so had the car put back, with engine/dct/differential oil changed

for the oil filter cartridge, so there's a filter AND the cartridge? is the cartridge replaced along with the filter during oil change?
http://parts.bmwofsouthatlanta.com/i...ize/251385.jpg
which is the cartridge you mean? #2 in this picture, the cover with a pipe or tube in the middle?
if there was no sign of oil leak around the filter housing, all o-rings were good right? can this one be removed from the guesses?

when the solenoids were swapped out, they were cleaned with brake cleaner, but not flushed, tried a good set from another car but was the same

SH*T, just had the oil changed, didn't try the flush, it makes big different?

[acidandroid]

during the weekend, i went to the shop,
i originally said only 1 vanos was showing code
271C Vanos control, intake bank 2
another vanos control was showing code too, exhaust bank 2

so now, it's like all 4 banks have code for maximum value
and 2 banks showing vanos control unit

feels like maximum value code will show first, and when it gets worse the control unit will show code too, that makes sense?
could the vanos really are faulty? the adjustment units

[Kurt-M3]

Originally Posted by acidandroid

during the weekend, i went to the shop,
i originally said only 1 vanos was showing code
271C Vanos control, intake bank 2
another vanos control was showing code too, exhaust bank 2

so now, it's like all 4 banks have code for maximum value
and 2 banks showing vanos control unit

feels like maximum value code will show first, and when it gets worse the control unit will show code too, that makes sense?
could the vanos really are faulty? the adjustment units

Have you fix the problem?

[Titan_br]

I only got this error, any idea?
271C Vanos control, intake bank 2

[chayes11]

Originally Posted by Titan_br

I only got this error, any idea?
271C Vanos control, intake bank 2

I'm in the same boat... I'm getting 271B intake bank 1. On my boost gauge tho, otherwise I wouldn't have a clue it was there because no lights on the dash. Cars runs great.

[Titan_br]

No one knows? Omfg. I have no clue what is going on.

Anyone has the service book? What it mentions? or Any Service Instructions from dealer?


Now the 271C is gone and it appers 275F: VARIABLE CAMSHAFT TIMING (VANOS) MAXIMUM LIMIT POSITION, INTAKE BANK 1

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by Titan_br

No one knows? Omfg. I have no clue what is going on.

Anyone has the service book? What it mentions? or Any Service Instructions from dealer?


Now the 271C is gone and it appers 275F: VARIABLE CAMSHAFT TIMING (VANOS) MAXIMUM LIMIT POSITION, INTAKE BANK 1

We could speculate for weeks but VANOS issues are very complex, possibly caused by a host of culprits, so they really need someone who knows how it works to troubleshoot in person.

For one reason or another, your DME is not seeing the correct cam location when the VANOS is being told to advance cam timing to maximum. Could be caused by a bad sensor, defective or dirty solenoid (most likely), debris in the VANOS adjuster, failure of the VANOS adjuster to hold oil pressure, or the list goes on.

Since yours seems to have migrated from one intake cam to the other, it would seem that there may be an oil pressure issue like debris or a blockage in the solenoids (especially likely if you've opened the engine up for rod bearings or other service) Could also be a bad solenoid, or just a poor electrical connection. Diagnosing properly requires an experienced head and BMW software like ISTA.

The S65 VANOS adjusters are pretty robust, much more so than in the old days. Rarely are there any issues with the actual adjusters unless they become contaminated and the internal rotors score. I've also seen the main bolt loosen up enough to cause it to slip a little bit and eventually ruin the adjuster AND the cam.

[Titan_br]

I changed the solenoid and it get fixed.

[Patrón]

Originally Posted by Titan_br

I changed the solenoid and it get fixed.

great news, can you be more specific?

[Titan_br]

Well, for initially problem it get fixed, but now I am getting 5E19. Anythoughts?

[Kurt-M3]

Has anybody here found a solution for this Vanos problem?

My Problem, Bank1 the inlet timing has it adjusted an i get the failure code P0012 A Camshaft Position - timing over-retarded, here you can see the problem

The timing in the inlet Bank1 was not correct, we adjusted this new and now we have the error P0011 a camshaft Position - Timing over-advanced or System Performance Bank1.

Last year I had the code P0021 A Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced or System Performance Bank2

I changed the oil filter housing and the O-rings, the error was storaged but i didnt get it more on the dashbord.

But now when i start the car, the engine check control goes on, when i delete the error i can drive with no lights in the dashbord but when i start the car again i have the engine light control on.

It is very strange this error i hope somebody has fixed that and can help me.