Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[pbonsalb]

There are five options.

1. Do nothing, its all hype and wont happen to you.
2. Get regular oil tests and change them only if a change in test results convinces you its necessary.
3. Buy an extended warranty and buy another when it expires.
4. Change the bearings as preventative maintenance.
5. Have an engine shop rebuild and blueprint your motor to BMW specs or to your specs or to your engine builder's specs.

[CHE///MIST3]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

There are five options.

1. Do nothing, its all hype and wont happen to you.
2. Get regular oil tests and change them only if a change in test results convinces you its necessary.
3. Buy an extended warranty and buy another when it expires.
4. Change the bearings as preventative maintenance.
5. Have an engine shop rebuild and blueprint your motor to BMW specs or to your specs or to your engine builder's specs.

Thanks, I feel these are the best options to choose from as well. Without the knowledge of an existing manufacturing defect I have to assume there are many properly built motors, and some unlucky ones that are not.

If the oil analyses convinces me to change bearings, I will, and later down the road, maybe do a motor rebuild, before the new bearings eventually get chewed up. Otherwise I will wait until the ~100,000 mile mark and if the bearings have held up, then i'll believe the engine was built correctly and then I can change the bearings knowing that the specs of the motor will support new bearings just fine. If it fails before ~100K miles, then it fails.....and I will have an engine shop rebuild a precision motor.

...I guess whatever helps me sleep at night, right ?


GM

[4corners]

I'm not sure just how effective oil analysis is.
Look at my bearings. Some trend should have been detected by oil analysis.
I got clean reports every oil change for over 50k miles.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by 4corners

I'm not sure just how effective oil analysis is.
Look at my bearings. Some trend should have been detected by oil analysis.
I got clean reports every oil change for over 50k miles.

A 2008 ?
Usually Blackstone would show at least increased ppm levels of lead , because they don't look through to the copper .
But we saw them blown as well after clean reports , so yeah oil analysis looks doubtfull ...
In other words it's really strange...And who knows ?

Thanks for sharing !

[CHE///MIST3]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

A 2008 ?
Usually Blackstone would show at least increased ppm levels of lead , because they don't look through to the copper .
But we saw them blown as well after clean reports , so yeah oil analysis looks doubtfull ...
In other words it's really strange...And who knows ?

Thanks for sharing !

Good observation. Is there a possibility that once the lead layer has worn down to a certain point, especially in such a small and concentrated area as seen in the photo, that you may not see lead in analysis for a very long time?


GM

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by GMCHEM83

Good observation. Is there a possibility that once the lead layer has worn down to a certain point, especially in such a small and concentrated area as seen in the photo, that you may not see lead in analysis for a very long time?


GM

From the wear that we saw in the picture it really needs to show up in increased ppm levels of lead .
For me personal the wear surfaces are not small , but we saw them (on others) deeper and through on the copper .

[aus]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Did he really say He likes beamers??
.

[admranger]

Originally Posted by aus

Did he really say He likes beamers??
.

Yes. Yes he did. The arm over the passenger seat was a nice touch that adds to the wife-beater wardrobe selection.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Anything that calls itself "the truth," you know it isn't. I want that eight minutes of my life back. Probably somebody on this forum too.

[swamp2]

A string of largely unrelated replies to a bunch of ya.

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

I get what you're saying, but what does "backing up if there's a problem" mean?

Exactly. No one here is with any aftermarket bearings will cover didly. Guaranteed, whereas BMW has covered folks 100% both below and above warranty period mileage limits. No not everyone has been covered, but BMW put some good faith forward (probably too little, but something).

Originally Posted by Obioban

What would you consider sufficient testing by the non OE bearing makers?

I've discussed this before. It's relatively straightforward. Sure, certainty is very costly but one data point could be very telling.

1. Obtain a fully stock engine with strong ticking.
2. Disassemble engine and verify presence of significant bearing wear.
3. Insure no other damage was caused by bearing wear
4. Replace bearings with alternate. NO OTHER CHANGES.
5. Run engine as reasonably close to original mileage meaning appropriate mix of track/no track, oil type, OCI, weather, etc.
6. If engine significantly outlasts mileage when ticking occurred, disassemble engine to check bearing wear.

Significantly less to no bearing wear here would be highly telling. Again not proof, but at least one single test would graduate a hypothesis (guess...) to a theory.

Originally Posted by Richbot

You get the gold star for being the only person on my block list

I guess I'll reply for others "entertainment". It's quite unfortunate that a polite and genuine (perhaps strongly worded) conversation with you, all quite civil, results in such an action. To each their own. Adios.

Originally Posted by BMRLVR

You sir are unbelievable. You were quiet on the forums for quite a while, but you were watching closely and as soon as you thought that there was an engine failure with BE Bearings you came out hard and fast with your same old nonsense.

Just to clear things up a bit, there were many people involved in coming up with the BE Bearings final design, some of which are the most respected and qualified people in the industry. You make it sound like a couple of idiots came up with the bearing design out of thin air and then had them made.

Well as usual you won't give credit where credit is due, at least there is an alternative bearing design available now and all of us involved are undertaking real world testing and documenting it for all to see. There will be so much information available once the testing is done it will take months to go over it all. You can keep up your antics if you like, but once all the chips have fallen, you sir won't get the last laugh, we will.

By the way, what BMW gave us was a bearing in beta, no different than the BE Bearings...... The only thing about the OEM bearings is that they are proven, proven to fail!

I'm not very active here as I'm simply too busy. I'm not really doing much lurking either (sorry to disappoint). But regardless, forum participation is 100% up to me. Like it or not I can follow the topics I want, and reply/participate when I want. I've made no accusations nor assumptions about whose bearings have failed. I've only directly repeated what others have said, taking them at their word. Unless those folks are outright lying it seem abundantly clear that aftermarket failures are already happening, again just as I predicted and cautioned against.

I certainly don't plan on getting any "last laugh" here. I'm extremely disappointed in multiple bearing providers in that all of them are have released things letting the community be the beta testers. That is pure backyard "engineering" no ifs ands or buts (and I am being generous with the quotes there). I'll be thrilled if this problem can be solved. I've already given PLENTY of credit to folk involved in the BE Bearings "adventure".

If you really believe that last part about BMW, it only shows more quite unbelievable lack of knowledge on your behalf. It's really quite preposterous. I suspect you actually don't even believe it but are simply shooting for drama.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

There are five options.

1. Do nothing, its all hype and wont happen to you.
2. Get regular oil tests and change them only if a change in test results convinces you its necessary.
3. Buy an extended warranty and buy another when it expires.
4. Change the bearings as preventative maintenance.
5. Have an engine shop rebuild and blueprint your motor to BMW specs or to your specs or to your engine builder's specs.

Pretty well agree here. Although there has now been multiple cases of engine failure while doing oil testing. I find that surprising. I should ping one of the companies and get their take on that... FWIW my personal approach is 2&3, but I began with 3 before any potential bearing issue arose. We have expensive motors...

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

Agreed..when I look at pictures per Clevite and some other sites, I don't know how some reach their conclusions with what should be fairly objective criteria....it either looks like something or it doesn't. To me, the bearing above looked pretty good given the mileage.

Well, they don't look as bad as other samples for sure. However, that being said, forum member and "BE Bearing collective member" kawasaki00 claims that bearings can be/have been pulled from many high performance and hard driven engines with 100k-200k+ miles and they regularly show very little to no wear (I guess they just look a bit polished and "broken in"). In fact, he claims this is the norm for bearing wear across most vehicles at most mileages - little to no wear. I don't have enough experience to verify or refute this claim but is doesn't at all seem unreasonable. If this is the case then I'd have to disagree on that picture from 4corners and say it looks bad.

[4corners]

Originally Posted by swamp2

A string of largely unrelated replies to a bunch of ya.



Exactly. No one here is with any aftermarket bearings will cover didly. Guaranteed, whereas BMW has covered folks 100% both below and above warranty period mileage limits. No not everyone has been covered, but BMW put some good faith forward (probably too little, but something).



I've discussed this before. It's relatively straightforward. Sure, certainty is very costly but one data point could be very telling.

1. Obtain a fully stock engine with strong ticking.
2. Disassemble engine and verify presence of significant bearing wear.
3. Insure no other damage was caused by bearing wear
4. Replace bearings with alternate. NO OTHER CHANGES.
5. Run engine as reasonably close to original mileage meaning appropriate mix of track/no track, oil type, OCI, weather, etc.
6. If engine significantly outlasts mileage when ticking occurred, disassemble engine to check bearing wear.

Significantly less to no bearing wear here would be highly telling. Again not proof, but at least one single test would graduate a hypothesis (guess...) to a theory.



I guess I'll reply for others "entertainment". It's quite unfortunate that a polite and genuine (perhaps strongly worded) conversation with you, all quite civil, results in such an action. To each their own. Adios.



I'm not very active here as I'm simply too busy. I'm not really doing much lurking either (sorry to disappoint). But regardless, forum participation is 100% up to me. Like it or not I can follow the topics I want, and reply/participate when I want. I've made no accusations nor assumptions about whose bearings have failed. I've only directly repeated what others have said, taking them at their word. Unless those folks are outright lying it seem abundantly clear that aftermarket failures are already happening, again just as I predicted and cautioned against.

I certainly don't plan on getting any "last laugh" here. I'm extremely disappointed in multiple bearing providers in that all of them are have released things letting the community be the beta testers. That is pure backyard "engineering" no ifs ands or buts (and I am being generous with the quotes there). I'll be thrilled if this problem can be solved. I've already given PLENTY of credit to folk involved in the BE Bearings "adventure".

If you really believe that last part about BMW, it only shows more quite unbelievable lack of knowledge on your behalf. It's really quite preposterous. I suspect you actually don't even believe it but are simply shooting for drama.



Pretty well agree here. Although there has now been multiple cases of engine failure while doing oil testing. I find that surprising. I should ping one of the companies and get their take on that... FWIW my personal approach is 2&3, but I began with 3 before any potential bearing issue arose. We have expensive motors...



Well, they don't look as bad as other samples for sure. However, that being said, forum member and "BE Bearing collective member" kawasaki00 claims that bearings can be/have been pulled from many high performance and hard driven engines with 100k-200k+ miles and they regularly show very little to no wear (I guess they just look a bit polished and "broken in"). In fact, he claims this is the norm for bearing wear across most vehicles at most mileages - little to no wear. I don't have enough experience to verify or refute this claim but is doesn't at all seem unreasonable. If this is the case then I'd have to disagree on that picture from 4corners and say it looks bad.

I think my bearings looked bad. Not AS BAD as some, but I am really glad I replaced them. 147800 miles.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by FogCityM3

I get what you're saying, but what does "backing up if there's a problem" mean?

If you want to find out, you can always email BE Bearings and ask.

Originally Posted by swamp2

Exactly. No one here is with any aftermarket bearings will cover didly. Guaranteed...

Here's some advice: don't talk about things you don't know anything about, especially about somebody else's business. If you wanted to know, you could have always sent an email to BE Bearings to ask. Or you could find the guy with the blown motor you put so much faith in and ask him what discussions he had with BE Bearings, then ask him how it turned out. Once you collect some actual facts, THEN come here and report your findings. If you actually did some due diligence, you'd find out all of your assumptions and statements have been false.

I'm not very active here as I'm simply too busy. I'm not really doing much lurking either (sorry to disappoint).

Yet you pop up to say "I told you so" within 24-hours of a guy who incorrectly claimed he has a bearing failure with BE Bearings, but claim that's just a coincidence. Regardless, that claim turned out to be false. So hold your enthusiasm for the next time.

[blue-mw]

What are people's thoughts on buying low-mileage M3s that have had rod bearing problems? Does "fixing" them with replacement bearings/crankshaft really prevent future damage when they've already shown susceptibility to this problem at low mileage?

Obviously there's no "certain" answer, but I've lurked this thread for a minute now and don't think I've seen anyone comment on this directly. Trying to make an informed decision and it would be cool to hear people's thoughts.

[Doc Oc]

Wanted to post this now that there is resolution. I am the guy Phillipe was referencing as an example of another set of aftermarket bearings failing. Last month I noticed a rattle under wot throttle at 4500 rpms or so. Was able to reproduce it twice. Also noticed my engine temps at highway speeds were way above normal (take note people, I think this is a big indicator). As soon as I slowed down to 35-40, temps returned to normal. Got home and pulled the oil and found small bits of metal. Sent off the oil to blackstone, no lead detected. Thought maybe I was being paranoid so I took it for another short drive. Ran ok but was ticking loudly in the garage when I got back. Pulled the oil again, inconclusive. Lots of tiny bubbles that looked like metal but were not. Thought again that I might be paranoid (and kept reminding myself that the uoa was good) so I let it sit for a week. Pulled the oil again, all looked ok. Started it, bearing spins. Obvious rod knock immediately. Shut it down and am now typing this. Don't know wtf to do. Thinking of pulling the bearings myself to inspect before getting a new engine (that I absolutely can't afford) but am not very confident in my abilities to drop the subframe without a diy or manual to reference. And if I get that far, I have no idea if the crank has already been chewed up. Life sucks Bearings have been in the car for 13k miles. They are the newest VAC's with arp's. I'm not indicting them yet as it very well could be the install, but right now I'm obviously very unhappy. This was my all time favorite car.... I'll probably be pm'ing some of you guys hoping to pick your brains on getting the subframe down. Hope you don't mind. For those of you running the same bearings, keep a close eye on things.

[Agua305x]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Wanted to post this now that there is resolution. I am the guy Phillipe was referencing as an example of another set of aftermarket bearings failing. Last month I noticed a rattle under wot throttle at 4500 rpms or so. Was able to reproduce it twice. Also noticed my engine temps at highway speeds were way above normal (take note people, I think this is a big indicator). As soon as I slowed down to 35-40, temps returned to normal. Got home and pulled the oil and found small bits of metal. Sent off the oil to blackstone, no lead detected. Thought maybe I was being paranoid so I took it for another short drive. Ran ok but was ticking loudly in the garage when I got back. Pulled the oil again, inconclusive. Lots of tiny bubbles that looked like metal but were not. Thought again that I might be paranoid (and kept reminding myself that the uoa was good) so I let it sit for a week. Pulled the oil again, all looked ok. Started it, bearing spins. Obvious rod knock immediately. Shut it down and am now typing this. Don't know wtf to do. Thinking of pulling the bearings myself to inspect before getting a new engine (that I absolutely can't afford) but am not very confident in my abilities to drop the subframe without a diy or manual to reference. And if I get that far, I have no idea if the crank has already been chewed up. Life sucks Bearings have been in the car for 13k miles. They are the newest VAC's with arp's. I'm not indicting them yet as it very well could be the install, but right now I'm obviously very unhappy. This was my all time favorite car.... I'll probably be pm'ing some of you guys hoping to pick your brains on getting the subframe down. Hope you don't mind. For those of you running the same bearings, keep a close eye on things.

sometimes the metal particles are not visible, but they're there. If you can see them, its probably too late even thou by what you're describing sounds like you're borderline. don't go blindly and replace the engine, i would at least look in there first. you might not have damage the crank yet and may get away with replacing the bearings, again. it sucks. sorry to hear and gl

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Wanted to post this now that there is resolution. I am the guy Phillipe was referencing as an example of another set of aftermarket bearings failing. Last month I noticed a rattle under wot throttle at 4500 rpms or so. Was able to reproduce it twice. Also noticed my engine temps at highway speeds were way above normal (take note people, I think this is a big indicator). As soon as I slowed down to 35-40, temps returned to normal. Got home and pulled the oil and found small bits of metal. Sent off the oil to blackstone, no lead detected. Thought maybe I was being paranoid so I took it for another short drive. Ran ok but was ticking loudly in the garage when I got back. Pulled the oil again, inconclusive. Lots of tiny bubbles that looked like metal but were not. Thought again that I might be paranoid (and kept reminding myself that the uoa was good) so I let it sit for a week. Pulled the oil again, all looked ok. Started it, bearing spins. Obvious rod knock immediately. Shut it down and am now typing this. Don't know wtf to do. Thinking of pulling the bearings myself to inspect before getting a new engine (that I absolutely can't afford) but am not very confident in my abilities to drop the subframe without a diy or manual to reference. And if I get that far, I have no idea if the crank has already been chewed up. Life sucks Bearings have been in the car for 13k miles. They are the newest VAC's with arp's. I'm not indicting them yet as it very well could be the install, but right now I'm obviously very unhappy. This was my all time favorite car.... I'll probably be pm'ing some of you guys hoping to pick your brains on getting the subframe down. Hope you don't mind. For those of you running the same bearings, keep a close eye on things.

Where are you located? You might want to see if there's some DIY'ers in your area who might want to lend a hand.

If you're in the Los Angeles area, we have some experts who can look at the parts and might be able to help determine a root cause of failure. But they'll want the engine out of the car and might want to measure the parts. Rod bearing failure sometimes isn't caused by the rod bearings at all. A main bearing failure will often destroy the next two rod bearings down stream from the failed main bearing. This happens because as the main bearing fails. the metal particles from the failing main bearing stay inside the crankshaft and take the path of least resistance to the oil galleys of the next two rod bearings.

Anyways, good luck, and let us know if you have any questions.

[Doc Oc]

Thanks GE. I'm in the SE though. I was thinking of main bearings as well because there was no trace of the coating from the rb's in the oil or filter. I'd think there be some evidence of it but am just guessing. What I'd really like to know is if the crank is even salvageable. There was a lot of knocking going on for a few seconds. Thanks for the help!

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Doc Oc

Wanted to post this now that there is resolution. I am the guy Phillipe was referencing as an example of another set of aftermarket bearings failing. Last month I noticed a rattle under wot throttle at 4500 rpms or so. Was able to reproduce it twice. Also noticed my engine temps at highway speeds were way above normal (take note people, I think this is a big indicator). As soon as I slowed down to 35-40, temps returned to normal. Got home and pulled the oil and found small bits of metal. Sent off the oil to blackstone, no lead detected. Thought maybe I was being paranoid so I took it for another short drive. Ran ok but was ticking loudly in the garage when I got back. Pulled the oil again, inconclusive. Lots of tiny bubbles that looked like metal but were not. Thought again that I might be paranoid (and kept reminding myself that the uoa was good) so I let it sit for a week. Pulled the oil again, all looked ok. Started it, bearing spins. Obvious rod knock immediately. Shut it down and am now typing this. Don't know wtf to do. Thinking of pulling the bearings myself to inspect before getting a new engine (that I absolutely can't afford) but am not very confident in my abilities to drop the subframe without a diy or manual to reference. And if I get that far, I have no idea if the crank has already been chewed up. Life sucks Bearings have been in the car for 13k miles. They are the newest VAC's with arp's. I'm not indicting them yet as it very well could be the install, but right now I'm obviously very unhappy. This was my all time favorite car.... I'll probably be pm'ing some of you guys hoping to pick your brains on getting the subframe down. Hope you don't mind. For those of you running the same bearings, keep a close eye on things.

Thank you for the clarification and all our PM's (updates) and calling my name (Philippe) in this thread .
So yes (for the guys on here) it was all about me (for the non believers)

And yes this is sadly another case of BF , signs were there with the higher temps and the louder ticking noises and power loss..
Like I just said in our PM I think your crank is still ok , because you was not running with car , and it happend at startup with low rpm's while idling for "only for 3-4 seconds"
All this makes me really sad , knowing that the S65 is actually a fantastic engine with race genes but fails worldwide !
Shame on you BMW to put people worldwide in serious trouble and my friends as well !!!

But in the mean while I received other horror stories as well ..(this week)
Will ask if I can share them on here .

Thanks for sharing my friend , and please keep us posted .

[Doc Oc]

Originally Posted by Agua305x

sometimes the metal particles are not visible, but they're there. If you can see them, its probably too late even thou by what you're describing sounds like you're borderline. don't go blindly and replace the engine, i would at least look in there first. you might not have damage the crank yet and may get away with replacing the bearings, again. it sucks. sorry to hear and gl

Thanks man!

[FazerBoy]

And another one in the UK:

http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=157369

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by FazerBoy

And another one in the UK:

http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=157369

Where is that guy who says rod bearings dont fail in the UK?

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Where is that guy who says rod bearings dont fail in the UK?

You want to hear something even funnier? The shop he said was his definitive source of information in the UK buys the BE Bearings multiple sets at a time and directly contradicts that guy's claims about bearing failures.