Official S65 Rod Bearing Condition Example Thread

[tom @ eas]

Originally Posted by IamFODI

Not even rod knock??

Surprisingly, no rod knock at all. Best option was to install new bearings and ride the engine out until the inevitable happens, but gives us time to source a replacement.

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Also interested to know, and how was the crank?
Is the big end cap scrap? Or can it be polished??

Crank journal is pretty badly damaged, doubt it can be saved.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by tom @ eas

Surprisingly, no rod knock at all. Best option was to install new bearings and ride the engine out until the inevitable happens, but gives us time to source a replacement.

Crank journal is pretty badly damaged, doubt it can be saved.

Is that road toasted too?

[bobbert]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Interesting, your bearings were better than mine at ~76k, what are your typical coldest temperatures you get through the winter?

The Seattle area can get down into the teens (F) occasionally, 20s often, but we don't spend many days below 32 and I doubt it saw more than a handful of snow days.

[Allanhelen]

Late 2010 car with updated bearings swapped at 42.5k miles

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by Allanhelen

Late 2010 car with updated bearings swapped at 42.5k miles

Fancy conducting a little experiment on 1-2 of your worst of your old shells?

[Damage Inc]

Originally Posted by Allanhelen

Late 2010 car with updated bearings swapped at 42.5k miles

Attachment 3087485

Attachment 3087486

Did yours need replacing? Or did they look bad?

[TheStevo1000]

2008 with ~78k miles, original bearings

[Allanhelen]

Originally Posted by Damage Inc

Did yours need replacing? Or did they look bad?

My car had been through a lot of owners even though it is relatively low mileage. It has a full none dealer history and is in really good condition but I had no idea how sympathetic its previous owners had been when the engine was cold.

So this swap was purely precautionary, the bearings themselves were actually ok and had a load of life left in them but at least now I have piece of mind, and with the mileage I do in the car each year they shouldn't need to be touched for another 100 years or so

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by TheStevo1000

2008 with ~78k miles, original bearings

Photo not loading? Bad image link.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by TheStevo1000

2008 with ~78k miles, original bearings

No visible picture

[TheStevo1000]

Oh whoops. Working now?

[IamFODI]

Originally Posted by TheStevo1000

Oh whoops. Working now?

Yep!

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by TheStevo1000

Oh whoops. Working now?

Believe it or not, they look a little better than I would’ve expected for 78K miles. They’re just about to break through to the copper layer. Great job replacing them and now having some peace of mind. What brand of bearings and rod bolts did you replace them with?

[Assimilator1]

Yea not bad for an S65. Mine were much worse!
75k miles, 2 had purple (heat) streaks, of which one you can see. Changed 2-2021.

More info and pics here.

[TheStevo1000]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Believe it or not, they look a little better than I would’ve expected for 78K miles. They’re just about to break through to the copper layer. Great job replacing them and now having some peace of mind. What brand of bearings and rod bolts did you replace them with?

Ya they weren't bad. I'm building a dedicated track car so bearings were a must. I went with BE-Clevite bearings & ARP rod bolts. I'm skeptical of any of the "upgraded" bearings with magic coatings and materials.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by TheStevo1000

Ya they weren't bad. I'm building a dedicated track car so bearings were a must. I went with BE-Clevite bearings & ARP rod bolts. I'm skeptical of any of the "upgraded" bearings with magic coatings and materials.

Good choice. You chose the best. The B.E. S65 rod bearings are an engineering solution which fixes the OEM clearance design problem. You may not need to change them again. Have fun with your track car build conversation. How ‘bout posting a few pics on the “Track Forum General Chit-Chat” thread when you get a chance?

Track Forum General Chit-Chat

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Wow! They do actually look good Shrike360! (assuming the photos aren't hiding anything as the shells look rather dark?).
Were they Clevite or Glycol shells? (it will say on the back). Mine on the other hand were pretty shagged! 4/2008 build, 75.4k miles, service history showed it was changed at factory intervals (it did have the run in service).

As you can see in the photos below all the top shells were through to copper (highly polished btw), I noticed initially that 2 of them had early signs of overheating! (blue streaks over the copper, although in 1 of the separate photos it looks black), after taking the main photo again (in sunlight this time) I some saw other shells had purple discolouration too! Anyway, luckily none were breaking up and the crank was undamaged .

I used plastigauge to measure the clearances of the new bearings as well as the old bearings, yes that added a load of time! 2 things to note about measuring the OEM clearances, obviously I couldn't re-use the OEM bolts (as they're stretch bolts), so I had to use the BE rod bolts I'd bought for the new shells. So I wasn't able to measure the OEM shells as they would have been installed originally. But torquing the BE bolts to 50lb/ft (68 Nm), presumably gives a similar clamping load (re BE's measurement of rod bore distortion, see S65 wiki).

Also, of course the OEM shells have badly worn, so have hence gained some clearance since being fitted! How much? I haven't a clue! I do vaguely recall seeing in a tech doc by ACL (I think) noting how thick the layers were in the babbitt layer, but that's not much use to these Clevite shells. I wonder if deansbimmer or other engine builders have any thoughts on that? For the actual measurements, see the main photo (excuse the workshop scribbling ). Old bearings clearance are top numbers, new ones bottom. The 1 hidden measurement is 0.05mm. The underlined numbers mean it was closer to that measurement than the other. New bearings are ACL (WPC treated) mixed and measured by deansbimmer, with a target clearance of 0.06mm IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong Coulter! ).

Anyway, feast your eyes on this, lol Fair to say I changed it in the nick of time I think!, and I'm glad I stopped driving it (in dec 2019 ) until I'd replaced the bearings!



No 8 upper


No 8 journal


No 6 upper


No 6 journal

Truly done just "in the nick of time". Good move to stop driving it for a while (back in Dec-2019). Number 6 and number 8 upper shells really do look to have the bluish / purple streaks metal tends to get when it's been overheated as well as scoring on the uppers (were any metal flakes in the oil?). Well done and great post. You're a lucky man and just pulled them out (perhaps) before it went kaboom! You should try your hand in 'Vegas sometime.

[gnx]

These just came off of a new to me e93M3 produced in Aug 2008.

Three oil changes since new break in service at 1100 klms, next oil change at 10200 klms in 2017 and third last in 2021 at 15000 klms.

Upper obviously the right one in each pic.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by gnx

These just came off of a new to me e93M3 produced in Aug 2008.

Three oil changes since new break in service at 1100 klms, next oil change at 10200 klms in 2017 and third last in 2021 at 15000 klms.

Upper obviously the right one in each pic.

So in a little over 9000+ miles, rod bearing wear is already significant - albeit taken place over the last 14+ years. Cold starts with 10W60 and tight factory clearences are possibly one of the main mechanisms for premature rod bearing wear. When my car was a few years old I once parked it for a week in an outside airport parking lot. That week ambient temperatures sank into the 20F region in upstate South Carolina. When I returned from my business trip, I heard S65 bearing knock for the first time. I never did that again and after that always bumped the starter a few times in an effort to build some oil pressure before cold weather starts. I changed those bearings at 115K miles by employing some other tactics too. Where has your new to you car spent most of its life so far?

[gnx]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

... Where has your new to you car spent most of its life so far?

On a Greek island, covering very short distances at a time, temperate to hot climate though depending on season.

[DrFerry]

Originally Posted by gnx

On a Greek island, covering very short distances at a time, temperate to hot climate though depending on season.

So lots of start and stop without much time to warm the engine up. About ~9000 miles in 14+ years is about 680 miles per year or 1.7 miles per day.. The engine internals look great and very clean. Thanks for the photos. Enjoy Greek life.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by DrFerry

Truly done just "in the nick of time". Good move to stop driving it for a while (back in Dec-2019). Number 6 and number 8 upper shells really do look to have the bluish / purple streaks metal tends to get when it's been overheated, as well as scoring on the uppers (were any metal flakes in the oil?). Well done and great post. You're a lucky man and just pulled them out (perhaps) before it went kaboom! You should try your hand in 'Vegas sometime.

No metal flakes in the oil that I saw, and despite appearing scored they were actually polished smooth! You can see quite a good reflection in no 7 and 8 upper in the main photo, lol.
But yea I think I did do them just in time, I suspect the next stage for those purple streaked ones would have been the copper breaking up!
Never been a gambling man ironically .