Two funny quotes I made up to explain the difference between M3 and C63. Agree?

[Keto]

Originally Posted by ///M-Turismo

(Especially after the new RS4 comes out (I'm guessing around 2012), pretty sure it's going to have 450+hp.)

Yes, because the current elevation in gas prices and rising CAFE standards won't change the HP war at all. /sarcasm


I suspect every carmaker is going back to the drawing board to increase efficiency at this point as all this power is beyond useless for public roads. 500 hp isn't selling M5's and M6's.

As for your quotes, BMW always builds balanced cars, and MB builds torque-monster drag racers. Nothing has changed appreciably.

[Krueger///M3]

Originally Posted by BlackJetE90

The 2009 performance pack with LSD should help the C63 gets its power down.


If you want a coupe get the M3.

If you need a four door people mover, get the C63.


I think the 6.2 liter AMG powerplant is one of best production V8's produced. It fits so well, in so many types of vehicles.

Perfect car, M3 chassis with C63 poweplant.

The M3 engine won engine of the year in its category and is said to be the best V8 this side of the Ferrari F430, am I missing something here?

[jm1234]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I think the claim to fame is that the 6.2 liter Merc V8 is approximately similar in overall size to the 4 liter M3 powerplant, weighs about the same, and of course makes a good deal more power and torque, even when detuned for use in the C63. Users and reviewers unanimously describe it as ferocious, a beast, makes power everywhere, etc.

Users and reviewers also wax poetic about the M3's engine as well, but mention its low rpm softness. Defenders of The Faith remark that its easy to drive through/around that soft spot (and I personally agree with this), but you don't have to bother with anything like that with the Merc.

Thus, if the Merc engine were installed in the M3, the car would weigh about the same, handle about the same, probably get similar mileage with less aggressive final drive gearing appropriate to its rev range, and of course be a bunch faster.

Bruce

How do you know how much these engines weigh?

The merc is a heavier car (usually this has something to do with the engine) and the weight distribution is pushed forward in the merc (again, points to a heavier engine). You've always posted intelligently, so I'd like to understand why you think both engines weigh the same?

[Seth_Horwitz]

Originally Posted by jm1234

How do you know how much these engines weigh?

The merc is a heavier car (usually this has something to do with the engine) and the weight distribution is pushed forward in the merc (again, points to a heavier engine). You've always posted intelligently, so I'd like to understand why you think both engines weigh the same?

Without research, I thought the Merc engine was heavier. BMW went out of their way to cut weight from the front of the car to try to get the 50/50 Holy Grail. I'm not sure the Merc guys ever thought about balance, and could justify a heavier engine as long as it put out more power.

[Krueger///M3]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

I agree that the bimmer would have to be sold at a higher price with the Merc powerplant. As I understand it, Mercedes gets about $56K over the counter for that engine, so at a guess its alloys, components, etc are fairly special - leading to some of those interesting specs in regard to size and weight.

They can stuff it in the C63 and still sell the car at an aggressive price because they can amortize its cost amongst the other AMG 63 models.

Bruce

$56k for just the engine? How much does the ///M V8 run?

[sayemthree]

Originally Posted by tfurban

please post the funny posts. We're all waiting. Thank you.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by jm1234

How do you know how much these engines weigh?

The merc is a heavier car (usually this has something to do with the engine) and the weight distribution is pushed forward in the merc (again, points to a heavier engine). You've always posted intelligently, so I'd like to understand why you think both engines weigh the same?

If memory serves, BMW says their V8 weighs about 445 pounds, and Mercedes says their 6.2 liter weighs about 439 pounds. This info was in the announcement information for each engine, and it prompted a certain amount of ado in this forum about how Mercedes probably lied.

Of course, engine weight methodology is specifically called out in the SAE specs in this country, and in whatever they now call the Euro specs (was DIN).

Bruce

[ersin]

Originally Posted by xsilvor

...Watch the Top Gear episode comparing the two (and the RS4) and you'll here some quotes worth repeating.

Like "M3 drivers have no friends." Or "Yes. My knob is bigger by half an inch." Now those are funny.

[xsilvor]

and:

Clarkson: "When do you feel most alive? When you're right on that close to death."
Hammond: "Everytime you get in that car, the greatest thing in your life is that you get out alive. Is that what you're saying?"
Clarkson: "Yes. You get to every destination and go 'Yes! Yes! I'm alive. I made it.'"

[gadget]

This thread is hilarious, not the OT post, but rather all the comments about how this is not funny.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by Krueger///M3

$56k for just the engine? How much does the ///M V8 run?

Dunno. I got the Mercedes 6.2 price from Csaba Cere's "Steering Column" in the October '07 Car and Driver. He was doing a bit on OHV vs 4-cam engines, including pricing (Merc 6.2 vs Chevy LS3 and LS7).

Bruce

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by Krueger///M3

The M3 engine won engine of the year in its category and is said to be the best V8 this side of the Ferrari F430, am I missing something here?

Simple answer, Yes.

[lucid]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

If memory serves, BMW says their V8 weighs about 445 pounds, and Mercedes says their 6.2 liter weighs about 439 pounds. This info was in the announcement information for each engine, and it prompted a certain amount of ado in this forum about how Mercedes probably lied.

Of course, engine weight methodology is specifically called out in the SAE specs in this country, and in whatever they now call the Euro specs (was DIN).

Bruce

Hi Bruce. Long time no see--virtually speaking that is...

What are the SAE specs for weighing engines? Does that include accessories and fluids?

Also, the entire drivetrain would have to be beefed up to handle the higher peak torque, which should result in a slightly higher drivetrain weight overall.

Finally, if you had two engines that generated the same peak power, wouldn't you agree that having less peak torque at the wheels and putting down the power via higher engine speed result in better traction and control?

But, I agree that AMG tuned this engine down for the C63, and that the engine can produce more power.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast.

If memory serves, BMW says their V8 weighs about 445 pounds, and Mercedes says their 6.2 liter weighs about 439 pounds. This info was in the announcement information for each engine, and it prompted a certain amount of ado in this forum about how Mercedes probably lied.

Of course, engine weight methodology is specifically called out in the SAE specs in this country, and in whatever they now call the Euro specs (was DIN).

Bruce

Seems doubtful to me that an engine with that much more displacement and a very similar overall engine type (V8, quad OHC, alum. block/heads) could actually weight less. Common sense dictates a completely different story. It certainly begs the standards question lucid asked as well.

[footie]

The M3v8 may be lighter than the old in-line 6 but it's not the lightest v8 of 4L and above, the C63, S5 and RS4 engines are both lighter or should I say quote a lighter weights.

As Lucid said is it known if they are all quoted with fluids etc., if not then the M3 maybe the lightest but if they are quoting the same then there may be other reasons for BMW's extra weight, like strengthening, etc.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by lucid

What are the SAE specs for weighing engines? Does that include accessories and fluids?

Originally Posted by swamp2

Seems doubtful to me that an engine with that much more displacement and a very similar overall engine type (V8, quad OHC, alum. block/heads) could actually weight less. Common sense dictates a completely different story. It certainly begs the standards question lucid asked as well.

That's the problem. Mercedes stated their weight according DIN standard (no fluids), BMW only states weight following a "BMW standard". I've yet to find out what the specs for that BMW standard are. Anybody?

Best regards, south

[KonigsTiger]

Yea it seems really hard to believe that a 6.2L all aluminum engine would be lighter than another all aluminum 4.0L! So what South states makes entire sense to me. Which is one of the reasons the M3 is the lightest of all four vehicles in question, S5, RS4 and C63.

[adamr]

[dechoong]

Anyone here has the weight distribution (front:rear) figures of the C63 AMG? I really doubt the 6.2L V8 only weighs as much as the 4L from M3... unless it's a very basic design w/o a variable valve timing and cam lift mechanism.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by lucid

Hi Bruce. Long time no see--virtually speaking that is...

What are the SAE specs for weighing engines? Does that include accessories and fluids?

I don't know. It's SAE Standard J2038, but I don't feel the need to spend the $59 to get the details.

Originally Posted by lucid

Also, the entire drivetrain would have to be beefed up to handle the higher peak torque, which should result in a slightly higher drivetrain weight overall.

I would suggest that the transmission input shaft assembly would have to be heavier (or higher grade material), but south of that, the differences would be smaller due to less aggressive gearing. Still, your point is well taken.

Originally Posted by lucid

Finally, if you had two engines that generated the same peak power, wouldn't you agree that having less peak torque at the wheels and putting down the power via higher engine speed result in better traction and control?

Nope. See gearing. Power essentially translates to peak torque at the wheels.

Separately, having more torque gives the driver that sense of lazy, effortless speed. I personally like that, but to each his own.

Bruce

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by swamp2

Seems doubtful to me that an engine with that much more displacement and a very similar overall engine type (V8, quad OHC, alum. block/heads) could actually weight less. Common sense dictates a completely different story. It certainly begs the standards question lucid asked as well.

One could easily make a case that a fifty six thousand dollar engine could be made lighter by use of stronger, higher-grade, harder-to-machine materials than an engine of similar architecture that costs less, but if you'd care to traipse on down to your local dealer and find out that the M3 engine costs a similar amount, I won't use that argument.

I don't know what the Euro engine weight standards are, either. Just that there are standards, and manufacturers generally use them.

Meanwhile, the published numbers are the published numbers, and since I drink the Kool-Aid of pretty much all the manufacturers (have you seen the Hyundai Genesis yet?), I am content with them.

Bruce

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by footie

The M3v8 may be lighter than the old in-line 6 but it's not the lightest v8 of 4L and above, the C63, S5 and RS4 engines are both lighter or should I say quote a lighter weights.

As Lucid said is it known if they are all quoted with fluids etc., if not then the M3 maybe the lightest but if they are quoting the same then there may be other reasons for BMW's extra weight, like strengthening, etc.

For me, It's not hugely important, but I understand the pain of the Ever Faithful.

As I mentioned previously, the 6.2 (mangled by wistful marketeers into the 6.3) had to be a home run right out of the box, as it is the first clean-sheet AMG effort, and much face would be lost if it were a clunker. This is pretty much a similar case to the Nissan guys, who had to prove that the latest iteration of the local legend could shine on the world stage as well.

Bruce