Blown motors, Rod Bearing failure S65 Registry.

[cannga]

Thanks everyone for the helpful answers. Save me a lot of reading.

[///M Power-Belgium]

*x2nervisx* for the list => https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1669484

[cannga]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

My suggestion to you would be to review all of the background and technical information found on BE's website, as well as KING, and Clevite's sites. By doing so you will better understand the purpose of bearings, their design, and this engine's flaw. You will make your own assumption and will likely come to the same conclusion that the rest of us who understand the issue have- it boils down to a poorly specified bearing clearance, and tolerance stacking.

Thermal expansion is not a culprit here- the components in question are all steel- their expansion rates are not dissimilar. As far as high rpm, that is also a non issue in a functional hydrodynamic bearing as long as there is adequate oil pressure to maintain the oil wedge (lack of bearing/oil clearance can allow the oil wedge to be overcome and that stems back to the issue).

There's no breakdown necessary showing failures in DCT vs manual because not only is it irrelevant to bearing wear, but they built far more DCT than manuals, which would end up perpetuating the false impression than DCT's are more hazardous to bearings than manuals.

Every wear concept has been debated and picked apart for almost ten years now. The only one that works out and has stood the test of time is a spec that's too tight, and tolerance stacking.

Thank you for your helpful input. I have a "date" with local shop (Auto Talent) in a week.

BTW I think I will have their one remaining set of BE bearings in stock. I was relieved as BE bearings seem to be hard to get lately?

[///M Power-Belgium]

*Kobaiyashi* for the list => https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1670660

[aus]

Originally Posted by cannga

Thank you for your helpful input. I have a "date" with local shop (Auto Talent) in a week.

BTW I think I will have their one remaining set of BE bearings in stock. I was relieved as BE bearings seem to be hard to get lately?

AutoTalent is the distributor for BE and has done a tone of bearing jobs. You're in good hands. They have huge boxes of bearing when a shipment came in. BE actually HAND INSPECTS EVERY BEARING before shipping to Autotalent for distribution. Sam said, something like 20-25% were out of spec last batch, so they sold out really quick!

They also did my DCT top leak and SLON pan install.
.

[cannga]

Originally Posted by aus

AutoTalent is the distributor for BE and has done a tone of bearing jobs. You're in good hands. They have huge boxes of bearing when a shipment came in. BE actually HAND INSPECTS EVERY BEARING before shipping to Autotalent for distribution. Sam said, something like 20-25% were out of spec last batch, so they sold out really quick!

They also did my DCT top leak and SLON pan install.
.

Thanks; very good to hear. I am also changing to adjustable end links to reduce sway bar preload and per Zolti's rec the tie rods - waiting for those parts to come in. So slight delay, but should be soon.

My M3 has done well at 50k miles and I certainly don't want to take any chance with this baby (love the M3 very much, even with the Turbo competing). I actually have stopped driving the car for now - would be extremely depressing if the engine blown right before planned rod bearings replacement.

[///M Power-Belgium]

*Seized S65 engine* => https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1669484

[Assimilator1]

Is their a tally of the dead engines?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Is their a tally of the dead engines?

=> https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=786615
The number of bearing failures is only Bimmerpost related and not worldwide ...

[Assimilator1]

Roger that , err I see you linked page 1 of this thread , yea I saw that but I didn't see a tally up of all those links (presumably of actual failed engines?).
I was hoping someone had been keeping count somewhere, I don't feel like counting & checking everyone of those links!

[Assimilator1]

Right, seeing as no one else has tallied up all those blown engine links in the op, I have

So as of 1/1/20, with the last report being from Kobaiyashi, 185 people have reported blown engines! (I'm assuming they are all blown engines right? Not preventative bearing changes?).
Although I expect that all those links do indeed reference blown engines, I haven't confirmed them all (only 2 so far, not sure I want to check them all! ), nor have I checked them to see if it's something the owners have done or not done.

Of the 2 I have checked, maicol76 mentions using 10w/60 redline which is claimed by someone else in that thread to be a thicker oil (despite being the same grade!), I'm not implying that is the cause (I wouldn't know for sure), I'm just noting it.

Aus - could you add that tally to your op & update it as new ones come along?

[Assimilator1]

Ok, I've checked the 1st 4, and MathewDavid did not have a blown engine!
Just a tapping noise (which IMO was a follower), he later reported the engine had been stripped down with nothing found wrong, & several thousand miles(!) later the noise vanished!
So you can remove that one from your list.

One more you can remove, I LOVE MY M3's engine had not blown up or destroyed bearings, the photos he's posted shows slight & uneven wear on the main bearings, & slight wear to the rod bearings. Unfortunately he does not say why it was stripped down, we can only surmise it was stripped down for an investigative purpose or maybe preventative bearing change?? Btw he can't be PMed & he hasn't visited this forum in 7yrs!

And another that ought to be removed, DLSJ5's engine certainly blew up, but it was a supercharged car which was running overly high boost (9 PSI) with standard compression of 12:1, plus the seals on the charger 'blew out' earlier causing oil loss (including oil light on, we don't know which), which almost certainly starved the bearings of oil! This failure was not down RB clearance issue.

So far I've checked 9 links, 2 weren't blown engines, 1 was but due to an oil leak &/or overboosting (as above).
I think the aim of this thread is to document engine failures due to rod(main) bearing failures with no apparent cause, right? (likely to the clearance issues)

[pbonsalb]

I would guess maybe 10% of M3 owners are active here. The list includes some nonmember engines but there are many more failed motors than listed in this forum.

[Assimilator1]

True, but I'm just going through the list on this thread.

Another one to delete from the list, armorrig - never said his engine died, it was making funny noises along with clutch/gearbox noises, as noted the videos have since gone.
So far 4/10 checked not dead, or not due to bearing failure alone.

An edit needed for elmariachi, his forum name is actually satinghostrider, also the link goes to the wrong thread with no real talk about the engine damage. The following link is the right thread https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379712 (although the photos have gone MIA , I've PMed him to see if he can fix that. He's posted recently btw). Going by the what the posts say he had 2 broken pistons (& some unknown amount of wear in the rod bearings), it appears that this engine suffered from mechanical crank imbalance & severe detonation in part from a poor ECU remap.
Possibly this should be removed from the list as it seems likely that the bearings were a victim of the problem rather than the cause??

Anyway, that's enough checking for 1 day , so far 6/11 are due to RB failure with no apparent external cause.

1 more , Brooklyn Mark's car was almost certainly a blown engine, his thread title says bearing failure, but he never came back with a post mortem photos or description, and probably never will as he was banned 4-5/2014 , so cause unknown. (1 note, it was supercharged).

[SAMM3Y]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I would guess maybe 10% of M3 owners are active here. The list includes some nonmember engines but there are many more failed motors than listed in this forum.

I think less more like 4% but maybe you're right... about 67k v8 m3's produced.

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

True, but I'm just going through the list on this thread.

Another one to delete from the list, armorrig - never said his engine died, it was making funny noises along with clutch/gearbox noises, as noted the videos have since gone.
So far 4/10 checked not dead, or not due to bearing failure alone.

An edit needed for elmariachi, his forum name is actually satinghostrider, also the link goes to the wrong thread with no real talk about the engine damage. The following link is the right thread https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379712 (although the photos have gone MIA , I've PMed him to see if he can fix that. He's posted recently btw). Going by the what the posts say he had 2 broken pistons (& some unknown amount of wear in the rod bearings), it appears that this engine suffered from mechanical crank imbalance & severe detonation in part from a poor ECU remap.
Possibly this should be removed from the list as it seems likely that the bearings were a victim of the problem rather than the cause??

Anyway, that's enough checking for 1 day , so far 6/11 are due to RB failure with no apparent external cause.

1 more , Brooklyn Mark's car was almost certainly a blown engine, his thread title says bearing failure, but he never came back with a post mortem photos or description, and probably never will as he was banned 4-5/2014 , so cause unknown. (1 note, it was supercharged).

Good work!

And also remember: IIRC, BMW no longer has a single virgin spare S65 in their inventory due to the number of failed engines.

That says something about the numbers.

Cheers,

[Assimilator1]

Interesting, how do you know that?

Btw, found a blown engine report by MasterP that hasn't been listed, this link https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=963103
Incidentally, he says in that thread his replacement engine had badly worn bearings, no they weren't, that was normal wear!

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Interesting, how do you know that?

Btw, found a blown engine report by MasterP that hasn't been listed, this link https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=963103
Incidentally, he says in that thread his replacement engine had badly worn bearings, no they weren't that was normal wear!

Nice work! And interesting, so far half of the claimed RB booms are actually...not due to the RBs. Makes the compilation a bit weird but strengthen the picture of that although the shells almost always get worn, they keep going typically for a very long time.

[Assimilator1]

Yea, although I have only gone through 18 so far, could just be a fluke at this point.

Btw, another one that wasn't caused (initially) by failed rod bearings, Sti2e92sedan engine's oil pump packed up, then the engine seized. Not really the RBs fault!

Stats update 11/18 are due to RB failure, with no other apparent cause.

Although I will say that 2 of those 11 might be attributed to other things, e.g h4nh's car was supercharged (not blaming that significantly) & running 89/91 octane fuel, which was below the recommended 93 apparently! So maybe detonation could be to blame? Although that said, ESS mentioned the ECU's anti-detonation safety features are left untouched on their tunes (I think that's SC the guy had??), so maybe not?? I don't know, tricky one that.
Also Brooklyn Mark's car was never confirmed as failed RBs, although it is very likely as he said "I heard a small pop and then tons of white smoke out the exhaust and from the hood. Pulled over and tons of fluid started leaking out. Car does not start,...", and a picture of his car being pulled into the workshop with a big trail of oil! But that could be down to a busted conrod bolt, failed oil pump, badly(!) failed head gasket etc, so I'm not sure if we should count that one really. What do you guys reckon?

Anyway, I'm going to start posting my list tracking doc here :-

1.maicol76 - confirmed, 29k kms
2.RenoE92M3 - conf, 43k miles
3.zOOm - conf, 59k miles
4.MathewDavid - NOT blown up! Ticking noise later went away!
5.Gatchaman - conf, 6k miles
6.I LOVE MY M3 - NOT blown up! Slight wear to bearings, unknown reason for strip down
7.taleof2bricks - conf, 28k miles
8.DLSJ5 - conf blown, but due to oil leak from supercharger! Ran out of oil! Plus had high boost! Not RB design.
9.armorrig - not confirmed! No evidence or post of a blown engine.
10.elmariachi (aka? satinghostrider) - conf.pistons broken + unknown amount of bearing wear, possibly due to detonation
11.h4nh - conf, in a later post, supercharged & run 89/91 fuel!
12.Brooklyn Mark - likely blown but not confirmed, 38k miles, supercharged, forum banned him 4/2014
13.e90m3_6MT - confirmed, broken con-rod etc,
14.Boxed - confirmed rod bearings worn out by BMW, bearings replaced
15.jacobe92 - confirmed rod bearing failure, 31k miles, no more info
16.Sti2e92sedan - confirmed seized engine but NOT by RBs, failed oil pump
17.M3NST3R - confirmed 'blown', 47k miles, no more info


185. Kobaiyashi - conf, 136k

[Assimilator1]

Can someone check zgirl1999's post for me? I can't because of GPDR! (I stupidly said yes to being in the EU , and still can't access it via VPN from another country, cookies I guess).

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Can someone check zgirl1999's post for me? I can't because of GPDR! (I stupidly said yes to being in the EU , and still can't access it via VPN from another country, cookies I guess).

The link took me to rakuten.com lol. No info on that one, and zgirl1999 is not a member.

[Assimilator1]

Ah yea, me too, I was hoping it would still have the post there.
Thanks for trying anyway

Updated check list, found another unlisted report, just 2 more not confirmed this time (one the dead site), are we counting main bearings too? :-

1.maicol76 - conf, 29k kms
2.RenoE92M3 - conf, 43k miles
3.zOOm - conf, 59k miles
4.MathewDavid - NOT blown up! Ticking noise later went away!
5.Gatchaman - conf, 6k! miles
6.I LOVE MY M3 - NOT blown up! Slight wear to bearings, unknown reason for strip down
7.taleof2bricks - conf, 28k miles
8.DLSJ5 - conf blown, but due to oil leak from supercharger! Ran out of oil! Plus had high boost! Not RB design.
9.armorrig - not confirmed! No evidence or post of a blown engine.
10.elmariachi (aka? satinghostrider) - conf.pistons broken + unknown amount of bearing wear, possibly due to detonation
11.h4nh - conf, in a later post, supercharged & run 89/91 fuel!
12.Brooklyn Mark - likely blown but not confirmed, 38k miles, supercharged, forum banned him 4/2014
13.e90m3_6MT - confirmed, broken con-rod etc,
14.Boxed - confirmed rod bearings worn out by BMW, bearings replaced
15.jacobe92 - confirmed rod bearing failure, 31k miles, no more info
16.Sti2e92sedan - confirmed seized engine but NOT by RBs, failed oil pump
17.M3NST3R - confirmed, 47k miles, no more info
18.Canadian - confirmed, 6k! miles, repaired by BMW (did some track days[not noted previous track mentions])
19.zgirl1999 - unknown, website gone
20.bigtracing - confirmed, 96k
21.Artem@ONEighty - confirmed, 28k, engine replaced by BMW
22.Elvace - not confirmed! The photos of 3 RBs he did take show modest wear, additionally he had a broken clutch plate which was almost certainly the source of the noise in the video! 105k kms(65.2k miles)
23.kinnsella - confirmed, 35k, BMW replaced engine with a reman unit
24.HapaM3 - confirmed, 47k, (some tracking)
25.JDATX - confirmed, 39k miles, replaced under BMW warranty
26.amg893 - confirmed, 90k kms(56k miles)
27.foolio2 - Confirmed, 6.7k!, BMW replaced engine
28.brandfay - confirmed, 20k miles, BMW replaced under warranty
29.Agent Orange, name changed(?) to Morally Gray - confirmed(ish) main bearing failure! Supercharged, suspicions fall on the supercharger though. 70k kms(43.5k miles), 2010 MY
30.Maybe 5 other cases in Oz?? - not confirmed, no specific reports
31.Crusher - confirmed, 20k miles, 2012 MY, BMW replaced under warranty
32.e93 jonesy - confirmed, no car info, BMW replaced under warranty
33.BMW Fanatik - confirmed, but suspicion of other factors, his engine definitely died, but it may have originally been damaged by being hydraulically locked from sucking water in a "massive puddle"!, 12k kms!(7.5k miles), but he got it done under warranty!
34.stubble88 - (name corrected) confirmed, 20k, replaced by BMW, slightly changed link https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=226
35.mkoesel - confirmed(ish) - video produced, sounds like a big end knocking (not belt noise lol!), engine wasn't stripped down during his ownership, 95k miles
36.REDBULL - confirmed, 23k miles, 2010 MY
37.TL866 (3 cases in Spain) corrected linkhttps://www.m3post.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16515302&postcount=523 - not confirmed, in Spanish! (will Google translate later)
38.TrakBch - aka Master P! confirmed blown engine, 65k miles, https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=963103
39.JRLittle - confirmed broken rod, 500 miles!! 2010 MY. Possible contributory factor, RPM run in limit exceeded, it seems likely it was ragged before it was run in! 2010 MY
40.magicknife - confirmed engine failure, replaced by BMW under warranty, cause unknown other than a very loud noise
41.neilm3 - not confirmed, intial failure not due to RBs, headgasket failed which lead to coolant mixing with oil subsequently destroying RBs.
42.LoonR1 - confirmed engine failure, likely bearing failure (swarf in engine), 33.5k miles, 2011 MY, BMW replaced under warranty
43.Malek@MRF - 38k miles, 2011 MY, was running 0w/40 oil for last 15k miles..... Better link showing pics of Rbs & crank https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=672
44.Five potential cases in Bahrain by 0-60Motorsports - not confirmed, no links, no real info, nothing!
45.antonio010 - confirmed engine failure, due to bearing failure (mentions both mains & rod bearings), 90k miles, 2008 MY
46.oreokid24 - confirmed RB failure, BMW replaced engine under warranty, 35k miles, 2011 MY
47.fer316 (4 in Europe) - not confirmed yet, in Spanish, will try translating it later, maybe!
48.tar0d - confirmed RB failure, 60k kms (37k miles), 2008 MY,
49.tobilli - confirmed RB failure, 90k kms (56k miles), 2009 MY
50.ellekz - confirmed ,47k miles, 2009 MY, 2 engine failures! (2nd engine was used).
51.BMW M3 Guy - confirmed RB failure, 55k miles, 2008 MY, repaired by BMW under goodwill!
52.JYTSky - confirmed bearing failure (which unknown), 36k miles, 2011 MY, BMW repaired under warranty
53.M33DDIE - confirmed engine failure, cause unknown, but piston was removed from original engine to inspect, 35k miles, 2008 MY
54.PERFM3(renamed PerfM5) - confirmed bearing failure, ? miles,2008 MY, covered by 3rd party warranty
55.mtecnic - confirmed blown engine (crank/rods failure), 70k miles, 2008 MY, covered by CPO party warranty
56.xccess - confirmed blown engine (likely bearings/rods), 88k miles, 2008 MY,

M33DDIE - confirmed engine failure, cause unknown, but piston was removed from original engine to inspect, 35k miles, 2008 MY

185. Kobaiyashi - conf, 136k

Missing reports :-
williocom, dead engine (no further info), 20k miles, BMW replaced under warranty https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...2&postcount=16

surewin - confirmed failed RBs, 62k miles (photos plus oil report) https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=256


Total 185 @1/1/20