ACL rod bearings?

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by ha9981

Great now Assimilator1 has to buy another set of bolts

And then if he actually wants to test them for bore distortion, he'll need to buy some brand new BMW S65 connecting rods, and a bore gauge accurate to 1/1000 inch. Just another $1000 of gear...that's all.

[ha9981]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

And then if he actually wants to test them for bore distortion, he'll need to buy some brand new BMW S65 connecting rods, and a bore gauge accurate to 1/1000 inch. Just another $1000 of gear...that's all.

Yeah I'll fund half the gear then we are going to setup a group buy for bolts and bearings.

Hopefully one big group buy can recoup the costs.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by ha9981

Yeah I'll fund half the gear then we are going to setup a group buy for bolts and bearings.

Hopefully one big group buy can recoup the costs.

Did you know all of this research has already been done? All done with virgin rods and new bolts. Each set of bearings measured was done with new OEM bolts for each set of measurements.

Bearing measurements:
http://wiki.rcollins.org/core/index....5_Rod_Bearings

Rod bolts and bore distortion measurements:
http://wiki.rcollins.org/core/index..../S85_Rod_Bolts

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by ha9981

Yeah I'll fund half the gear then we are going to setup a group buy for bolts and bearings.

Hopefully one big group buy can recoup the costs.

What is going on suddenly? Derp.

[TX]

I just and assume it's the Holiday madness.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by ha9981

Great now Assimilator1 has to buy another set of bolts

Lol, I'll pass!

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

And then if he actually wants to test them for bore distortion, he'll need to buy some brand new BMW S65 connecting rods, and a bore gauge accurate to 1/1000 inch. Just another $1000 of gear...that's all.

See above, + they're all ARP 2000 bolts so I don't need to repeat the work anyway

Green-Eggs
For me, the lack of curiosity has me puzzled. Your curiosity in solving this mystery only seems to go in one direction -- towards BE, not towards anybody else. I'll help you solve the mystery a bit later in the post. But for now, the lack of curiosity and focus in a single direction looks like an agenda-driven motive.

Wow, talk about a persecution complex! It only started with BE ......actually, no it started with the Mpower bolts, but then yes BE bolts because that's what this thread was talking about where the op was unsure about his Mpower bolts, note I was not the op if you've completely forgotten about that thread. And, as I already told you I'd forgotten about the VAC-ARP bolts and it wasn't the discussion of that thread! Now if it turns out the VAC-ARP bolts are exactly the same as the Mpower and pre 2020 BE bolts, and also charge a major premium on them I'll highlight them too and will add them to that table, hell, I'll create a dedicated thread to all 3 if you like!?

Agenda driven...

lmao, who do you think I work for??
I'll tell you who I work for, I'm a master technician for a small Suzuki dealer in the UK, Surrey and I live nearby too. So no connections to any of your or BE competitors.
If you search my forum name (which I've used for over 20yrs at most forums) you'll see that my location (where shown) is UK, Surrey. For 1 other forum I'm currently using I'm called Markpd, no prizes for guessing where that comes from .
Oh and if you don't believe I work there, ask deansbimmer, he can confirm my work address as he sent me some ACL bearings and BE bolts there. So their your conspiracy theory will be ended.

I don't see any claims about manufacturing dates at our web site at that link at our web site? Again, you made a claim in a previous post, you provided a link, but the claim you made isn't mentioned or found at that link.

A?? You're getting confused, I never said the manufacturing dates were from your site in the 1st place (re-read what I said), I said your site states that BE designed the rod bolts, which it does - Designed by BE Bearings, manufactured by ARP..

Now that you've spent all of this money, let me help you unravel the mystery. I'll tell you EXACTLY where all of these bolts come from. It all started with VAC. BE was originally sourcing the bolts from VAC until they accidentally shipped a batch without removing the original ARP part numbers.

All of these bolts from VAC, M-Power, and BE (prior to early 2020), started life as an ARP 234-6301 bolt for Chevrolet LS Gen III/IV & 6.2L LT1. The bolts have an SAE 12-point head, not metric 12-point head. The bolts are too long for S65/S85 connecting rods. VAC, M-Power, and BE all came up with their own machining specs based on these Chevrolet bolts. So each of them can factually claim that their bolts are their own design. Once received, each of them had them machined to their own specs. VAC presumably machined them in-house. M-Power and BE had them machined at their own machine shops. This explains why the dimple for the stretch gauge does not appear on any of these bolts -- because it was literally machined off. If you went down this exercise to measure all of them, you would probably find 10 different bolts from the SAME supplier would all be different; this is because the bolts are all machined manually.

However, BE did work that nobody else took the time to do. BE verified the bore distortion with each bolt and torque spec. Did VAC or M-Power do this? No. VAC still sends out bolts with the wrong torque spec which causes bore distortion. M-Power was sending out bolts with BE-ARP instructions and marketing as BE-ARP bolts even though they were not sourcing the bolts from BE. VAC is still charging $325 for their machined bolts, M-Power $260, and BE $295 -- as you say "all for the same bolt."

Once the machinist for BE retired, BE contacted ARP directly and had them design a fully custom ARP-2000 bolt according to BE specifications. The head is now a proper metric head. The stretch gauge dimple is now in the bolt because they are no longer machined from Chevrolet bolts. The price stayed the same even though the price of the bolts slightly increased.

There: mystery solved.

Extra money spent isn't a problem as I can sell them on, thanks for your concern though .

And thank you for your honesty and useful information. It would be more accurate for everyone to say the bolts were machined or at least re-designed for S65 use.
Btw I was already aware BE did spend considerable time and effort on rod bore measuring and various torques etc (not to mention all the work on bearing clearances and oil flow), I've read the whole bearing wiki, some of it twice or more.
So I'm quite happy to pay for their work by paying beyond what the normal retail price is, what gets my back up (and this is nothing to do with you, and maybe, in part at least, not down to BE), is the exorbitant price charged for BE bearings here in the UK. They go for ~£600 (incl VAT, that's tax) (currently = $820) last time I looked, which is triple the cost of a set of ACL shells here! (£200). Yes those ACL's are not hand measured, but I don't think 3x the price is reasonable for doing that and the research. I have however paid just over 2x the price (of set of ACL shells) to have hand measured ACL shells. (Obviously I can't know the price of std unmeasured Clevite77 shells vs ACL).

Btw, as a general question (to anyone) about buying stuff in the USA, I believe your sales tax is equivalent to our VAT, do you guys pay that at point of sale or later on? (i.e does the $589 for BE bearings include tax?).

Re Autotalent and BE, got it.

Incidentally it's ironic that I was arguing against you when I've often argued with you against a certain idiot in the M3cutters forum who is flat out a bearing clearance denier! (I'm sure you know who I mean).

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by Kelse92

deansbimmer installed them and I really can’t recall. I would have to go dig up my receipt if it’s on there. Didn’t want to bug him at Christmas-time but I would assume a mixed set of some sort

Yes, they were mixed/measured ACL H/HX shells. We don't expect zero lead emissions from pb/cu shells, especially in heavily tracked engines. Tracked cars should have much more frequent oil intervals especially if running burble/pop tunes or e85. Maintain those frequent oil changes and oil reports to monitor the wear trends for spikes.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

...
Btw, as a general question (to anyone) about buying stuff in the USA, I believe your sales tax is equivalent to our VAT, do you guys pay that at point of sale or later on? (i.e does the $589 for BE bearings include tax?).

Yes, our sales tax is collected at the point of sale. Sales tax is after the retail price; so it would be $589 + sales tax. Sales tax is also different in each state, and even different in counties and cities. That's why you need a subscription software service on our web sites to calculate the proper sales taxes based on where they are going.

[Gossypiboma]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Lol, I'll pass!

Agenda driven...

lmao, who do you think I work for??
I'll tell you who I work for, I'm a master technician for a small Suzuki dealer in the UK, Surrey and I live nearby too. So not connections to any of your or BE competitors.
If you search my forum name (which I've used for over 20yrs at most forums) you'll see that my location (where shown) is UK, Surrey. For 1 other forum I'm currently using I'm called Markpd, no prizes for guessing where that comes from .
Oh and if you don't believe I work there, ask deansbimmer, he can confirm my work address as he sent me some ACL bearings and BE bolts there. So their your conspiracy theory will be ended.

He's not saying you work for a BE competitor. He's pointing out the fact you seem to have a bug up your ass only for BE bearings/bolts.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by Gossypiboma

He's not saying you work for a BE competitor. He's pointing out the fact you seem to have a bug up your ass only for BE bearings/bolts.

I accept his explanation. Now that the history of the bolts is public information, I'm sure that will be the end of it anyways.

[DRLane]

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

I accept his explanation. Now that the history of the bolts is public information, I'm sure that will be the end of it anyways.

Sadly, there's a new "my perspective" bearing thread every 60-90 days so I'm dubious the bolts convo has concluded.

Appreciated your insights!

[Assimilator1]

My post originally wasn't talking about the bearings but the bolts, and once I post measurements of the Mpower bolts I don't see that they'll be much more to add? (even allowing for machining variations), I guess VAC bolt measurements would be useful though.

Also still after OEM bolt measurements, though I'd be able to provide that for old (=stretched I know) OEM bolts, hopefully this month or next (assuming my work doesn't close).

Originally Posted by Green-Eggs

Yes, our sales tax is collected at the point of sale. Sales tax is after the retail price; so it would be $589 + sales tax. Sales tax is also different in each state, and even different in counties and cities. That's why you need a subscription software service on our web sites to calculate the proper sales taxes based on where they are going.

Useful to know, thanks, quite a complicated country wide setup then. What sort of % range does the sales tax vary by?
VAT here is 20% for most VAT applicable things .

Gossypiboma
That was what seemed to be implied, and as you can see from my reply to Green-eggs (the bit you didn't quote), it wasn't a purposeful focus on BE bolts.

[pbonsalb]

My thought on the ACL bearings is that I can buy them plus a measuring tool and still end up at less than the BE bearing price. I get a new tool for free that I can continue to use in the future. I have always reinvested the savings from DIYing into more tools. That reduces the savings from DIY but I enjoy it.

[ha9981]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

My thought on the ACL bearings is that I can buy them plus a measuring tool and still end up at less than the BE bearing price. I get a new tool for free that I can continue to use in the future. I have always reinvested the savings from DIYing into more tools. That reduces the savings from DIY but I enjoy it.

I've done the same. I did my RB job myself with ACL bearings and bought a tool chest and torque wrenches. Totally worth it. Got what I always wanted.

In past I said I would put the savings into tools but never did. Now I'm more dedicated to bigger DIY jobs.

[BCBMWF30]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

They have already been caught red handed selling non-be arp rod bolts as BE-ARP rod bolts, and they are no longer a BE dealer because of that.

That's likely not entirely accurate, it's true he didn't get the bolts from BE, but the bolts he was/is getting appear to be identical to the bolts BE were getting up to the beginning of this year. So it's more marketing spin by BE, they were almost certainly the same bolts!
Not sure if you've read this thread, but I hope to prove that soon as I will hopefully be getting some mpower ARP 2000 rod bolts as well. Unless of course someone would like to provide measurements for ones they have already!

Ok, so you didn't ask for mixed and measured then?

ha9981
Now I don't have a problem with unmeasured shells as I shared earlier because it makes little sense to control one variable given the final result depends on at least 3 variables. Just trust the manufacturer tolerances. Here I agree with Lang.
It absolutely makes sense as your eliminating 1 variable, better than none, and it will reduce the total possible variance.

phonsalb
How much is that measuring kit out of curiosity?

I just order a "custom mix" set. It didnt say anything about measured.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by ha9981

I've done the same. I did my RB job myself with ACL bearings and bought a tool chest and torque wrenches. Totally worth it. Got what I always wanted.

In past I said I would put the savings into tools but never did. Now I'm more dedicated to bigger DIY jobs.

Interesting, did you post details about your measurements that I missed mate?

[ha9981]

Originally Posted by Helmsman

Interesting, did you post details about your measurements that I missed mate?

Oops sorry I confused you. I mean the same as in move the savings towards tools. If I did another job I'd get instrumentation for measuring.

[Helmsman]

Originally Posted by ha9981

Oops sorry I confused you. I mean the same as in move the savings towards tools. If I did another job I'd get instrumentation for measuring.

Ah, got it!

[jvictormp]

Can someone point me a video that teaches measuring myself the bearings? What tool should I use?

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

My thought on the ACL bearings is that I can buy them plus a measuring tool and still end up at less than the BE bearing price. I get a new tool for free that I can continue to use in the future. I have always reinvested the savings from DIYing into more tools. That reduces the savings from DIY but I enjoy it.

I have a couple questions about this approach:

A) if the bearings are fine, you save a bit of money over BE and you now own a tool that may have very little practical use in real life (unless you build engines).

B) if the bearings are not fine, what recourse do you have? It is likely difficult to return bearing shells. If you need to buy more shells, then the savings go away, you are left with spare shells and a quasi useful tool.

Don't get me wrong, I too love to buy the parts and tools and save money on labor where possible.

Or am I out to lunch on this?

Cheers,

[VCP]

Where are we going for lunch? LOL

Originally Posted by Scharbag

I have a couple questions about this approach:

A) if the bearings are fine, you save a bit of money over BE and you now own a tool that may have very little practical use in real life (unless you build engines).

B) if the bearings are not fine, what recourse do you have? It is likely difficult to return bearing shells. If you need to buy more shells, then the savings go away, you are left with spare shells and a quasi useful tool.

Don't get me wrong, I too love to buy the parts and tools and save money on labor where possible.

Or am I out to lunch on this?

Cheers,

[Epoustouflant]

Bought ACL mixed set + ARP bolts. The value proposition isn't there for BEs for 2x the price IMO.