Cayman GT4 vs E92 M3 (very long but organized)

[Rajmun340]

where's you conclusion and closing note paragraph ? i need a sampler before i invest time to read the whole thing.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

where's you conclusion and closing note paragraph ? i need a sampler before i invest time to read the whole thing.

Post #32, about halfway down Page 2 of you're on the mobile app.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by jphughan

GT4 is definitely a big step up from the M3 in performance and overall driving experience, but less significant if you won't track, and although surprisingly DDable, it may not be worth the practicality tradeoffs for people who need more contiguous storage and/or rear seats. Also, the S65 even today remains a total gem of an engine.

The M3 even in F8x form I am convinced remains the best all-purpose car out there for track people in terms of its blend of performance, comfort, convenience/tech features, practicality, styling, price, and overall fun, with the possible exception of a Golf R/GTI if you'd trade some performance for more practicality and a lower price.

i have a ZCP coupe and at times i find the m3 ride and engine would be significantly rough for a DD (it's my weekend car). It would be hard for me to say that the m3 engine and chassis are a gem in daily driving. There are tons of noises in the cabin with closed windows that are just harsh moving parts noises not to be confused with the beautiful exhaust and intake induction sounds that you hear when you open the windows but more like drivetrain noises, camshaft (?), valvetrain (sounds like a freakin helicopter at times or an industrial mixer or grinder). For me to enjoy the m3 i have to drive aggressively all the time then all those noises becomes part of the raw experience.
But if i'm trying to chill and relax back in my seat going through congested traffic then the m3 is a poor choice. It's why i have a DD.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

i have a ZCP coupe and at times i find the m3 ride and engine would be significantly rough for a DD (it's my weekend car). It would be hard for me to say that the m3 engine and chassis are a gem in daily driving. There are tons of noises in the cabin with closed windows that are just harsh moving parts noises not to be confused with the beautiful exhaust and intake induction sounds that you hear when you open the windows but more like drivetrain noises, camshaft (?), valvetrain (sounds like a freakin helicopter at times or an industrial mixer or grinder). For me to enjoy the m3 i have to drive aggressively all the time then all those noises becomes part of the raw experience.
But if i'm trying to chill and relax back in my seat going through congested traffic then the m3 is a poor choice. It's why i have a DD.

Then you would probably hate the GT4. I never had any of those complaints about my M3 and I was DDing it for more miles than I drive these days in the GT4 (wasn't working from home a bit back then). I don't ever remember driveline noises sounding like a helicopter. Occasionally for half-seconds here and there the gearbox would make a grinding noise while just sitting in Neutral, but I enjoyed all of the noises I heard as part of the experience even driving casually and never felt they were overbearing -- especially since it was never SO loud that the stereo even at a comfortable volume or just rolling the windows down couldn't mask the "din". As for the ride, I kept my EDC on Comfort during DD, Normal on twisty back roads and rough tracks, and Sport on smooth tracks. The only time I found the ride too rough was when I experimented with Sport on city streets, but maybe your roads are in worse shape than mine. Sure the engine and chassis aren't "gems" in that setting, but the M3 wasn't optimized for that setting. Still, I found them completely reasonable in that setting, which was plenty for me because they were gems in the setting for which they were designed.

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

i have a ZCP coupe and at times i find the m3 ride and engine would be significantly rough for a DD (it's my weekend car). It would be hard for me to say that the m3 engine and chassis are a gem in daily driving. There are tons of noises in the cabin with closed windows that are just harsh moving parts noises not to be confused with the beautiful exhaust and intake induction sounds that you hear when you open the windows but more like drivetrain noises, camshaft (?), valvetrain (sounds like a freakin helicopter at times or an industrial mixer or grinder). For me to enjoy the m3 i have to drive aggressively all the time then all those noises becomes part of the raw experience.
But if i'm trying to chill and relax back in my seat going through congested traffic then the m3 is a poor choice. It's why i have a DD.

I also have a ZCP coupe and have not noticed or experienced any of the above. My car is my DD, though since I work from home, it isn't driven daily. The M3 is a very refined car, as cars go. It's not as smooth as a 7 series or Lexus LS-series car, but no 3 (4-) series is supposed to be. Then again, I also came from a '11 Mustang GT which I put about 60 miles on per day. Aside from the inherent suspension issues that impact DD comfort, the noise and rattles was actually very good and certainly an easy DD.

Having said that, my corrado has 600 lbs front springs and 400s in the back. That car is miserable on anything other than a smooth road or track.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by New2Roundel

I also have a ZCP coupe and have not noticed or experienced any of the above. My car is my DD, though since I work from home, it isn't driven daily. The M3 is a very refined car, as cars go. It's not as smooth as a 7 series or Lexus LS-series car, but no 3 (4-) series is supposed to be. Then again, I also came from a '11 Mustang GT which I put about 60 miles on per day. Aside from the inherent suspension issues that impact DD comfort, the noise and rattles was actually very good and certainly an easy DD.

Having said that, my corrado has 600 lbs front springs and 400s in the back. That car is miserable on anything other than a smooth road or track.

I second this. My M3 feels very refined and quiet around town (even with the ACM exhaust mod). With the suspension in comfort mode I have no ride quality complaints. I guess it's all relative though and depends on what you're comparing to.

[Rajmun340]

I've always attributed those differences in rough noises to ZCP being one full centimeter lower stance and more rigidly tuned than non-ZCP. From recollection the ZCP press release (or was it an interview of some bmw official) said that Comfort and Normal mode were identical but Sport EDC mode was tuned differently and more track oriented for ZCP, but it's been debated that all modes are more rigid. I was going to answer to that effect to jphughan but I do take notice that New2Roundel, Iyzmi are not sharing my ZCP experience. I don't think i'm being too sensitive, keeping in mind too that different tires brand (mines are still Continental factory OEM bmw put on 2013's) also have some effect on how much drivetrain and even engine parts noise you hear in the cabin. Still... something does not seem to add up. As if my stereo is playing , those engine noises are clearly NOT covered and I have to crank up the volume quite a bit to not miss all the details or even words in an interview. This is resurrecting some concern i've had something is going on with my engine, the helicopter noise is something that only appears on occasions and i've attributed it to fuel quality variations.. The car never threw any codes, never needed any repairs and dealer never said anything either. I've meant to testdrive another ZCP M3 to be sure nothing is wrong with my car, but i've always procrastinated. And my memory of testdriving m3's 3-4 years ago on the dealer lot is not fresh enough.

[Beemdog]

A helicopter sound could be an intermittent issue with your auxiliary air pump (which is used during a cold start), its valves or plumbing. This device injects fresh air into your exhaust ports during a cold start, and any leaks or defects in operation can lead to unpleasant noises, though I've only heard of one or two complaints on this forum of failures in that system.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

I've always attributed those differences in rough noises to ZCP being one full centimeter lower stance and more rigidly tuned than non-ZCP. From recollection the ZCP press release (or was it an interview of some bmw official) said that Comfort and Normal mode were identical but Sport EDC mode was tuned differently and more track oriented for ZCP, but it's been debated that all modes are more rigid. I was going to answer to that effect to jphughan but I do take notice that New2Roundel, Iyzmi are not sharing my ZCP experience. I don't think i'm being too sensitive, keeping in mind too that different tires brand (mines are still Continental factory OEM bmw put on 2013's) also have some effect on how much drivetrain and even engine parts noise you hear in the cabin. Still... something does not seem to add up. As if my stereo is playing , those engine noises are clearly NOT covered and I have to crank up the volume quite a bit to not miss all the details or even words in an interview. This is resurrecting some concern i've had something is going on with my engine, the helicopter noise is something that only appears on occasions and i've attributed it to fuel quality variations.. The car never threw any codes, never needed any repairs and dealer never said anything either. I've meant to testdrive another ZCP M3 to be sure nothing is wrong with my car, but i've always procrastinated. And my memory of testdriving m3's 3-4 years ago on the dealer lot is not fresh enough.

FWIW, my M3 is non-ZCP but it does have the larger 220m wheels. I have never heard of any differences in the EDC modes between ZCP and non-ZCP cars. The only meaningful differences I remember are the wheels and 1cm drop, neither of which should impact the ride quality THAT much.

[New2Roundel]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

I've always attributed those differences in rough noises to ZCP being one full centimeter lower stance and more rigidly tuned than non-ZCP. From recollection the ZCP press release (or was it an interview of some bmw official) said that Comfort and Normal mode were identical but Sport EDC mode was tuned differently and more track oriented for ZCP, but it's been debated that all modes are more rigid. I was going to answer to that effect to jphughan but I do take notice that New2Roundel, Iyzmi are not sharing my ZCP experience. I don't think i'm being too sensitive, keeping in mind too that different tires brand (mines are still Continental factory OEM bmw put on 2013's) also have some effect on how much drivetrain and even engine parts noise you hear in the cabin. Still... something does not seem to add up. As if my stereo is playing , those engine noises are clearly NOT covered and I have to crank up the volume quite a bit to not miss all the details or even words in an interview. This is resurrecting some concern i've had something is going on with my engine, the helicopter noise is something that only appears on occasions and i've attributed it to fuel quality variations.. The car never threw any codes, never needed any repairs and dealer never said anything either. I've meant to testdrive another ZCP M3 to be sure nothing is wrong with my car, but i've always procrastinated. And my memory of testdriving m3's 3-4 years ago on the dealer lot is not fresh enough.

Don't forget, every car is different. I test drove a 2005 997 carrera that was a disaster---rattles everywhere and obscene tire noise. I then drove an 08 997S that was much better put together, though the tire noise was still there, but less. Not that your car is falling apart, but cars of the same model still can feel a little different when it comes to fit/finish. I don't think my car is super quiet, especially the engine noise, but what I do hear sounds pretty expected to me. Every once in a while I hear some drivetrain noise as well. It's a high performance car, so there is a premium put on feel, sound, and overall performance of the car. To me, it's just that none of the noises are uncharacteristic to me.

As far as EDC is concerned, I've read a bit about it on this site and other sources. I'm certainly open to be proven wrong, but from what I've understood, the sport setting is akin to what an M3 without EDC feels like. The comfort mode is supposedly softer than regular sport. The sport+ setting is supposedly designed for track work. Seems weird to me, but I have also read that EDC on competition cars supposedly has some type of ability to adjust itself by itself beyond the comfort, sport, sport+ settings. To me, the settings don't change the comfort levels all that much. The "power" button has a greater effect on the driving experience, IMO, than do any of the EDC settings.

[Rajmun340]

FYI I dug up the ZCP info on EDC:

"New for the BMW M3 Competition Package: In addition, the control of the electronic damper adjustment function EDC including a Sport mode specially developed for the Competition Package has been precisely adjusted to the chassis modifications by means of map-based control and the driving stability control function DSC."

http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/02/12/of...n-package-zhp/

The non-ZCP EDC does not interact directly with DSC that by itself is a difference.

Still i am not saying it explains the rough noises. I tend to agree with New2Roundel each car is different when it comes to fit/finish. At times i have been disconcerted by reading other people saying it is a "refined" drive, not by any stretch in my experience. Interesting comment from Beemdog about the auxiliary air pump. Thinking more on how to describe what i hear from the cabin i would compare it at times to a food blender/mixer, like those cheap kitchen appliances except more industrial sounding with tougher metal grind sound and on top of that once in while that perceptible tug boat or helicopter pulsating sound. I am not complaining so much about the ride/EDC but more the engine noises from inside the cabin. Sometimes it's almost physically hurting the ears when it gets really grindy, like a steam locomotive from the engine room. And my car came to me from the factory, still looks like a show room car and is still under warranty. I need to locate another ZCP and testdrive. Because it certainly is far from refined.

[Shredicus]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

FYI I dug up the ZCP info on EDC:

"New for the BMW M3 Competition Package: In addition, the control of the electronic damper adjustment function EDC including a Sport mode specially developed for the Competition Package has been precisely adjusted to the chassis modifications by means of map-based control and the driving stability control function DSC."

http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/02/12/of...n-package-zhp/

The non-ZCP EDC does not interact directly with DSC that by itself is a difference.

Still i am not saying it explains the rough noises. I tend to agree with New2Roundel each car is different when it comes to fit/finish. At times i have been disconcerted by reading other people saying it is a "refined" drive, not by any stretch in my experience. Interesting comment from Beemdog about the auxiliary air pump. Thinking more on how to describe what i hear from the cabin i would compare it at times to a food blender/mixer, like those cheap kitchen appliances except more industrial sounding with tougher metal grind sound and on top of that once in while that perceptible tug boat or helicopter pulsating sound. I am not complaining so much about the ride/EDC but more the engine noises from inside the cabin. Sometimes it's almost physically hurting the ears when it gets really grindy, like a steam locomotive from the engine room. And my car came to me from the factory, still looks like a show room car and is still under warranty. I need to locate another ZCP and testdrive. Because it certainly is far from refined.

Only sport mode, normal and comfort still do

[jphughan]

All EDC modes are adaptive with ZCP; Sport is not adaptive without ZCP. DSC has indeed been remapped with ZCP, but that isn't really tied to EDC directly (and Euro MDM can be retrofitted to both types of cars for an even better experience). All of this has been known for years though, and none of the ZCP changes are nearly significant enough to account for a meaningful change in ride quality, never mind helicopter noises. So if you continue to feel that your NVH tolerance isn't far below that of other owners here, there's probably something(s) up with your car. And at least while EDC is in Comfort, I actually WOULD describe the M3 as "refined", at least as sport-oriented cars go -- you didn't expect an S-Class ride, right? But I never had ANY occasions where noises in the car hurt my ears, nor did I experience any noises that sounded anything like kitchen appliances (except for that brief gearbox chatter I mentioned earlier, though even that was quiet) and definitely not a locomotive.

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by jphughan

All EDC modes are adaptive with ZCP; Sport is not adaptive without ZCP. DSC has indeed been remapped with ZCP, but that isn't really tied to EDC directly (and Euro MDM can be retrofitted to both types of cars for an even better experience). All of this has been known for years though, and none of the ZCP changes are nearly significant enough to account for a meaningful change in ride quality, never mind helicopter noises. So if you continue to feel that your NVH tolerance isn't far below that of other owners here, there's probably something(s) up with your car. And at least while EDC is in Comfort, I actually WOULD describe the M3 as "refined", at least as sport-oriented cars go -- you didn't expect an S-Class ride, right? But I never had ANY occasions where noises in the car hurt my ears, nor did I experience any noises that sounded anything like kitchen appliances (except for that brief gearbox chatter I mentioned earlier, though even that was quiet) and definitely not a locomotive.

I appreciate your feedback as fellow M3 owners have been my only way thus far to evaluate this but i have not been able to pin down a problem. I apologize to the OP of this thread for going on a tangent. Although it still linked to the original topic of ride differences
No, i didn't expect a S-class ride, i expected a sport car ride but I often feel like the technology under the hood was produced in an old soviet factory. It works but seems out of whack at times. No way is Comfort EDC a refined ride in my M3. Actually I have never been able to feel a perceptible difference between any EDC modes (one aspect of ZCP is all modes feel more agressive due to the lower stance). Is my EDC stuck in the most agressive mode ? But that would not explain the noises. But refined ? hell no and the noises from the cabin with closed windows are like a food mixer especially in 1st & 2nd and even 3rd.

The brief MT gearbox chatter noise, finally one noise that we can agree on and that is well understood (clutch damper springs and a heavy flywheel with a lot of inertia to match the high output engine) . All MT have it, it does not bother me at all.

[mermar]

I think the GT4 is an amazing car - but I'm just not the type of person to 'beg' to buy a product. Supply is not my issue. I know it's common these days but I'm not going to pay more than MSRP. Make enough products for your customers. This current supply game hurts the brand image a bit IMHO.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

I appreciate your feedback as fellow M3 owners have been my only way thus far to evaluate this but i have not been able to pin down a problem. I apologize to the OP of this thread for going on a tangent. Although it still linked to the original topic of ride differences
No, i didn't expect a S-class ride, i expected a sport car ride but I often feel like the technology under the hood was produced in an old soviet factory. It works but seems out of whack at times. No way is Comfort EDC a refined ride in my M3. Actually I have never been able to feel a perceptible difference between any EDC modes (one aspect of ZCP is all modes feel more agressive due to the lower stance). Is my EDC stuck in the most agressive mode ? But that would not explain the noises. But refined ? hell no and the noises from the cabin with closed windows are like a food mixer especially in 1st & 2nd and even 3rd.

The brief MT gearbox chatter noise, finally one noise that we can agree on and that is well understood (clutch damper springs and a heavy flywheel with a lot of inertia to match the high output engine) . All MT have it, it does not bother me at all.

I can feel a big difference between comfort and sport+ EDC modes. It is especially apparent if I flip back and forth on a bumpy road, but even on the highway I can feel the difference going over the gaps in the concrete. I never use sport mode (1 light on the EDC button) so I can't comment on the difference there. Have never heard anything even close to food mixer noises from my car, lol. Just glorious S65 noises .

If you're trying to find another M3 to test drive and compare with yours, I wouldn't get too caught up on finding a ZCP vs non-ZCP car. As others have said, the differences are very minor and chances are you wouldn't notice anything during one test drive.

There may be a problem with your EDC, doubtful but maybe. If there turns out to be nothing wrong with your car then I would just attribute your "unrefined" experience as difference in perspective. I'm coming from a couple Subarus and other non-luxury type cars so to me the M3 feels very refined, keeping in mind that it's still a stiff sporty car with louder-than-stock exhaust.

[///M Ryder]

Originally Posted by mermar

I think the GT4 is an amazing car - but I'm just not the type of person to 'beg' to buy a product. Supply is not my issue. I know it's common these days but I'm not going to pay more than MSRP. Make enough products for your customers. This current supply game hurts the brand image a bit IMHO.

I think it actual helps the brand and it's customers. If you say you're going to have a limited production build on a car than it should be limited. This is one of the reasons you hear people talk about how special the car is. Another benefit is it retains much more of it's value compared to other cars. Don't you hate to pull up to the light and see a M3 on every corner? I know in some smaller towns this may not be the case. But around here in the big city they are almost a dime a dozen......that's not a special feeling over time. Now, I have yet to see a GT4 on the street besides the person I know with one.....no others. So in my mind there's something special about that. Some are willing to pay a little more for that feeling. Even at 5k over MSRP the GT4 is still a great bargain....at least on paper right now. I can't comment on the driving dynamics yet. I'll post my thoughts after I get some serious seat time in the coming weeks.........Phil

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Iyzmi

I can feel a big difference between comfort and sport+ EDC modes. It is especially apparent if I flip back and forth on a bumpy road, but even on the highway I can feel the difference going over the gaps in the concrete. I never use sport mode (1 light on the EDC button) so I can't comment on the difference there. Have never heard anything even close to food mixer noises from my car, lol. Just glorious S65 noises .

If you're trying to find another M3 to test drive and compare with yours, I wouldn't get too caught up on finding a ZCP vs non-ZCP car. As others have said, the differences are very minor and chances are you wouldn't notice anything during one test drive.

There may be a problem with your EDC, doubtful but maybe. If there turns out to be nothing wrong with your car then I would just attribute your "unrefined" experience as difference in perspective. I'm coming from a couple Subarus and other non-luxury type cars so to me the M3 feels very refined, keeping in mind that it's still a stiff sporty car with louder-than-stock exhaust.

Sport is 2 lights on the EDC button. 1 is Normal and 0 is Comfort. I agree with everything else you said though. Either Joe's car is anomalous or his expectations/perspectives are.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by mermar

I think the GT4 is an amazing car - but I'm just not the type of person to 'beg' to buy a product. Supply is not my issue. I know it's common these days but I'm not going to pay more than MSRP. Make enough products for your customers. This current supply game hurts the brand image a bit IMHO.

Originally Posted by ///M Ryder

I think it actual helps the brand and it's customers. If you say you're going to have a limited production build on a car than it should be limited. This is one of the reasons you hear people talk about how special the car is. Another benefit is it retains much more of it's value compared to other cars. Don't you hate to pull up to the light and see a M3 on every corner? I know in some smaller towns this may not be the case. But around here in the big city they are almost a dime a dozen......that's not a special feeling over time. Now, I have yet to see a GT4 on the street besides the person I know with one.....no others. So in my mind there's something special about that. Some are willing to pay a little more for that feeling. Even at 5k over MSRP the GT4 is still a great bargain....at least on paper right now. I can't comment on the driving dynamics yet. I'll post my thoughts after I get some serious seat time in the coming weeks.........Phil

I wouldn't have begged or paid over MSRP for one either. I was lucky enough to get a customizable allocation at MSRP without dealing with any shenanigans. That said, I hate the limited supply game. Even though now as an owner it's in my interest from a resale perspective, as a car enthusiast I wish carmakers made enough cars so that everyone who wanted one and could afford it could get one. I don't derive any additional satisfaction from my car from knowing that others can't have it, nor did seeing other M3s on the road take away the amount of fun I was having in mine. Being happier with my possession because others who really want it can't have it seems kind of twisted IMHO, a form of schadenfreude. But then again, years of being on this forum have shown me that some people buy even M3s because they want it as a status symbol, not so much for how they'll use it, so I guess the Porsche market must have even more people for whom that is even more important. And then there are the people on the M2 side bent out of shape about mirrors, CF roofs, and seats because, "How will other people know I bought an M2 rather than a cheaper model!?!?"

Maybe the image of regular Porsches would suffer with more supply (some argue it has over the last few decades given skyrocketing 911 production numbers), but the image of Porsche GT cars should be fine given that it's based on how they drive and those cars are sought after by enthusiasts much more than poseurs.

[Iyzmi]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Sport is 2 lights on the EDC button. 1 is Normal and 0 is Comfort. I agree with everything else you said though. Either Joe's car is anomalous or his expectations/perspectives are.

Ah, thanks for the correction, I thought 2 lights was called Sport+.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

I appreciate your feedback as fellow M3 owners have been my only way thus far to evaluate this but i have not been able to pin down a problem. I apologize to the OP of this thread for going on a tangent. Although it still linked to the original topic of ride differences
No, i didn't expect a S-class ride, i expected a sport car ride but I often feel like the technology under the hood was produced in an old soviet factory. It works but seems out of whack at times. No way is Comfort EDC a refined ride in my M3. Actually I have never been able to feel a perceptible difference between any EDC modes (one aspect of ZCP is all modes feel more agressive due to the lower stance). Is my EDC stuck in the most agressive mode ? But that would not explain the noises. But refined ? hell no and the noises from the cabin with closed windows are like a food mixer especially in 1st & 2nd and even 3rd.

The brief MT gearbox chatter noise, finally one noise that we can agree on and that is well understood (clutch damper springs and a heavy flywheel with a lot of inertia to match the high output engine) . All MT have it, it does not bother me at all.

I'm the OP, so no worries about the semi-threadjack.

If you don't feel any differences in EDC modes (at least between Comfort and Sport) going over concrete expansion joints or on roads with quick undulations due to earth shifting underneath or just plain damaged concrete, then something is up. Maybe the shipping blocks are still installed in your suspension, lol. But on my non-ZCP car, Comfort and Normal only felt different on back roads when driving for fun, but Sport felt very different from both of the other modes basically anywhere. The ZCP ride isn't significantly different just from the 10mm drop. That itself isn't a very significant change.

I think it's clear here that your perception of refinement under the hood and in the cabin are polar opposite from everyone else here, and this is just the responses you're getting in a GT4 thread. If you posted a new thread about this, I think the difference in perceptions would be even more stark. I would strongly recommend that you find another M3 owner willing to give you a ride or let you drive their car and also take a ride in yours. Shouldn't be hard; just make a thread asking for a local member to help you. Then at least you'd get another set of ears on your car and see what another example is like.

[///M Ryder]

Originally Posted by jphughan

I wouldn't have begged or paid over MSRP for one either. I was lucky enough to get a customizable allocation at MSRP without dealing with any shenanigans. That said, I hate the limited supply game. Even though now as an owner it's in my interest from a resale perspective, as a car enthusiast I wish carmakers made enough cars so that everyone who wanted one and could afford it could get one. I don't derive any additional satisfaction from my car from knowing that others can't have it, nor did seeing other M3s on the road take away the amount of fun I was having in mine. Being happier with my possession because others who really want it can't have it seems kind of twisted IMHO, a form of schadenfreude. But then again, years of being on this forum have shown me that some people buy even M3s because they want it as a status symbol, not so much for his they'll use it, so I guess the Porsche market must have even more people for whom that is even more important. And then there are the people on the M2 side bent out of shape about mirrors, CF roofs, and seats because, "How will other people know I bought an M2 rather than a cheaper model!?!?"

Maybe the image of regular Porsches would suffer with more supply (some argue it has over the last few decades given skyrocketing 911 production numbers), but the image of Porsche GT cars should be fine given that it's based on how they drive and those cars are sought after by enthusiasts much more than poseurs.

Anyone that buys a car because of what others will think is already lost in my book. And as far as the production numbers go, car manufactures have a production number in mind based on markets and lots of research. Let's take this from another point of view......do you want to show up at a company function and every guy in the place has on the exact same suit or shoes as you? I didn't think so. It's called being unique and having some individual style. As far as we know Porsche's research has shown that the current number of GT4's is correct based on their research. We can all say we want the next greatest thing.....but when it's on the street how many will actually pony up and spend the coin? We see people for various reasons dropping out or giving away GT4 allocations. How much wasted inventory would there be in general if manufactures build products based on consumer emotion. And I think a lot of this GT4 chatter is just that....emotion of the new toy........Phil