Lets talk tires......need suggestions/experience

[Wilsel]

I used RE11's on my E46 for the last few years as a dual purpose tire. After 2 trackdays in the E92 on the stock PS2's it's time for new tires. The PS2's don't provide much grip IMO. Are the PSS any better? Tire Rack's test of the 2 put them pretty close with the RE11's but I have my doubts. I don't drive my car in the rain mostly because my other car is parked outside (why take the clean one) so I'm not too concerned with wet grip. With that said some trackdays are booked a month ahead of time, and you never know what the weather will be like. So I do want some water grooves just in case. What do you guys recommend? What about Pilot Sport Cups? Are they worth the extra money? Should I stick with RE11's? Thanks!

[Feuerbach]

There are a lot of factors...

What kind of driver are you? I will assume intermediate...

Car set-up? Camber?

Were the PS2s new? Why did they only last 2 days?

RE11s are a great sport tire that are actually very good in the wet as well...

I went from WhateverWasOnMyCar-RE11s-NT05s-NT01s-Slicks

[jphughan]

You definitely shouldn't have worn out your PS2s after 2 days unless they were already pretty worn to begin with. Otherwise, you were almost certainly severely overdriving the car.

In any case, this is well-timed based on my experience especially over this past weekend. Here's my history:

- I only tracked on PS2s once early on in my driving because I soon got a nail in one of my rears (4 days before my next track event!), and when I saw that the PSSes were both cheaper and better than the PS2s, I decided not to buy a new set of rear PS2s and instead swap out all 4 early for PSSes. Therefore I can't really comment on PS2 vs PSS.

- When I got PSSes, I corded the outside of both of my front tires after 6 track days, which included 6300 road miles. That prompted me to get camber plates, at which time I set my camber to -2.4 and my toe to 1/16" toe-in.

- With camber plates, my front tires lasted 7.5 track days and 8500 miles. Partway through that 8th day, I chunked the outside of one of the front tires. So I set my camber to -2.6, kept the 1/16" toe-in, and mounted 255/35/19 tires at the front (keeping the stock rear size) to reduce the understeer bias as well as hopefully protect the sidewall a bit more.

- With that setup, my front tires lasted 8.5 days and 6000 miles (had more track days than usual recently); partway through that 9th day one of my front tires was both corded AND chunked.

- My first set of rear PSSes lasted 8 track days and 10K miles before the tread around the inside groove was gone. My second set also lasted 8 track days (which included 6K miles) before they were both corded on the inside, so I actually reduced camber back there. The stock range is -1.5 to -2 or something, so I had that set to -1.6. Since then my current set has lasted 7 days and about 5K miles and the wear appears to be fine.

But based mostly on the front tire issue, I've ordered a set of AD08 R's that will be installed later this week. It seems the PSS sidewall just isn't strong enough for my track driving now. We'll see how it goes. Compared to my PSSes, I'm a little apprehensive having paid more for a tire with a much lower treadwear rating that will also undoubtedly be louder and harsher on the road, but I also don't want to buy track wheels just yet, so I'm still looking for a compromise tire of sorts. And I guess since I've recently been wearing out PSSes on premature sidewall issues rather than tread life, who knows, the AD08 Rs with their stiffer sidewalls may last me about the same length of time or perhaps even longer. I also don't commute as much anymore (live close to work and work from home a fair amount anyway), so the harsher road manners may not bug me. At least people who have run them seem to love them.

Pilot Sport Cups are a step even over AD08 R's / RE11A's, closer to something like NT01s. They will wear much faster and be even more of a handful in the rain, so I wouldn't recommend using them unless rain driving on the track doesn't interest you (which would be a shame because it's very educational) or you would always have your street tires with you at the track to swap on in case of rain. They also shouldn't ever be exposed to near-freezing temperatures even in storage, which could be an issue for you. And definitely don't run PSCs full-time. Their treadwear rating is 80, so you'll be replacing them constantly. The Sport Cup 2s apparently have a treadwear rating of 180, but they're brand new so I don't know how well that compares to tires from other brands with similar ratings (like AD08/RE11, etc). Treadwear ratings are only vaguely comparable across brands, fyi. But even if they're comparable on wear rate, they're also 50%+ more expensive than those others. If you want that level of dry grip though, also consider the NT01s and Toyo R888s, which have a lower treadwear rating but also cost less -- though they're technically competition-only and I definitely wouldn't drive them in the rain either.

[M3 Esq]

If you're concerned about rain I'd stick to street tires. RE11, Dunlop ZII BFG rivals RS3 are all good choices.

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

If you're concerned about rain I'd stick to street tires. RE11, Dunlop ZII BFG rivals RS3 are all good choices.

He said not concerned about rain.

[M3 Esq]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

He said not concerned about rain.

He said he wanted water grooves. :

[Triple M]

Enkei NT03, Apex wheels etc. Great set of track wheels for about the same price as a set of good tires that gets used and discarded. If you dont have a cage (I.e. u have storage *******, a set of track wheel is necessary. Will make your life easier. Your track tires will last longer and u just might get that 15-20k miles from those PSS. Just my 2C

[mkPOTO]

BF Goodrich Rivals are a good setup for cheap. I am currently running them and LOVE them over the RS3s

[1MOREMOD]

Originally Posted by M3 Esq

He said he wanted water grooves. :

Yep your right he said not concerned about rain and then the next sentence is concerned. Anything he buys is gonna have grooves, doesn't sound like he is on rcomps yet.

[Wilsel]

Sorry to be contradictory. I do care about the rain, but I'll trade some wet performance for more dry grip. I'd like something like NT01's that are made in 19's. Or maybe I should just get a square 18" set of wheels so I can rotate the tires?

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Wilsel

Sorry to be contradictory. I do care about the rain, but I'll trade some wet performance for more dry grip. I'd like something like NT01's that are made in 19's. Or maybe I should just get a square 18" set of wheels so I can rotate the tires?

The closest thing to NT01s in 19" would be the Toyo R888s, followed by the Pilot Sport Cup 2's -- but make no mistake, NT01s or R888s would be very dicey to run in the rain and downright dangerous to run through standing water. The MPSC 2s would only be slightly better. But if you're going to run that class of tire, you will absolutely want dedicated track wheels and tires. 18x10 ET25 wheels all around with 265/35/18 or 275/35/18 tires is an extremely common track setup for E9x M3s because that setup fits with no rubbing and no modifications required. As you say, a square setup allows you to rotate tires. Having 18" wheels also opens up a lot more tire options in this category, the tires themselves cost less, and you get a better experience in both worlds when you run track tires at the track and street tires on the street. And since your track tires won't be wasted on the street and your street tires won't be prematurely worn out at the track, you may even save money while enjoying this best of both worlds setup, even after considering the cost of the track wheels themselves, which incidentally tend to hold value reasonably well if you want to recover some of their cost later.

The only reason I'm not doing that is because storage is tight in my garage and swapping wheels is just one more thing to do for track prep and one step farther away from having a car you can just drive to the track, run for a day/weekend, and then drive home. But if these AD08 R's I just ordered don't work out as well as I'm hoping, I'll end up buying track wheels, probably APEX EC-7s.

[smmmurf]

Square setup with RE-11 or AD08R (or other "Extreme" category tires but these two are some of my favorites). PSS are not optimal track tires- though they do offer great grip when new, tracking them results in fast edge wear and heat cycling vs. other more track specific options since they have made compromises for being a good daily driver tire as well.

[Wilsel]

Originally Posted by jphughan

The closest thing to NT01s in 19" would be the Toyo R888s, followed by the Pilot Sport Cup 2's -- but make no mistake, NT01s or R888s would be very dicey to run in the rain and downright dangerous to run through standing water. The MPSC 2s would only be slightly better. But if you're going to run that class of tire, you will absolutely want dedicated track wheels and tires. 18x10 ET25 wheels all around with 265/35/18 or 275/35/18 tires is an extremely common track setup for E9x M3s because that setup fits with no rubbing and any modifications required. As you say, a square setup allows you to rotate tires. Having 18" wheels also opens up a lot more tire options in this category, the tires themselves cost less, and you may end up saving money and having a better experience with the car overall if you run track tires at the track and street tires on the street.

The only reason I'm not doing that is because storage is tight in my garage and swapping wheels is just one more thing to do for track prep and one step farther away from having a car you can just drive to the track, run for a day/weekend, and then drive home. But if these AD08 R's I just ordered don't work out as well as I'm hoping, I'll end up buying track wheels, probably APEX EC-7s.

Same here. Technically I'll be changing pads so I could change tires at the same time I guess. I'm really not interested in carrying another set to the track each time.

[admranger]

I hated the PS2's that came on the M3. Only tire I've had that just didn't work for me, for whatever reason.

I have RE-11s on the E90M3 and just put PSS' on the E46M3 to replace the RE-11s I have on the other set of wheels (RE-11's are worn way down and the E46M3 is my wife's DD). The PSS are way softer than the RE-11s. Huge difference in ride quality, but surprisingly, only a slight difference in performance. Cornering with PSS takes a while longer to set than with RE-11's, due to the much softer sidewall on the PSS (tire guys love PSS').

I would have put RE-11's back on the E46M3 but the $70 Michelin rebate was there and RE-11's seemed to be out of stock (via costco) in my sizes.

The plan is to go to NT-01s once I wear out the RE-11's on the 2nd set of wheels. I usually frown on R-comps since I only do driving schools anymore, but I just go through the RE-11's so fast and w/the newer M3's, need a bit more grip to keep up!

[MasterP]

Originally Posted by jphughan

But based mostly on the front tire issue, I've ordered a set of AD08 R's that will be installed later this week. It seems the PSS sidewall just isn't strong enough for my track driving now. We'll see how it goes. Compared to my PSSes, I'm a little apprehensive having paid more for a tire with a much lower treadwear rating that will also undoubtedly be louder and harsher on the road, but I also don't want to buy track wheels just yet, so I'm still looking for a compromise tire of sorts. And I guess since I've recently been wearing out PSSes on premature sidewall issues rather than tread life, who knows, the AD08 Rs with their stiffer sidewalls may last me about the same length of time or perhaps even longer. I also don't commute as much anymore (live close to work and work from home a fair amount anyway), so the harsher road manners may not bug me. At least people who have run them seem to love them.

You will like the AD08R for the street/track combo. I actually have a second set of track wheels with slicks, but sometimes I get lazy and just show up and run on the AD08's. Very good trackable street tire. It puts up with strong biting track pads much better than MPSS.

NT01/R888 will probably last longer than MPSC2 tires if you're commuting/track. Tread wear is actually 100.

Lastly, were you at COTA this past weekend?

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by TrakBch

You will like the AD08R for the street/track combo. I actually have a second set of track wheels with slicks, but sometimes I get lazy and just show up and run on the AD08's. Very good trackable street tire. It puts up with strong biting track pads much better than MPSS.

NT01/R888 will probably last longer than MPSC2 tires if you're commuting/track. Tread wear is actually 100.

Lastly, were you at COTA this past weekend?

Good to know, thanks! The tires get installed tomorrow morning, but I'll be flying out of town for the weekend, so I'll only be able to drive them briefly before then, but I'm looking forward to it.

I was indeed at CotA this past weekend; I was the younger of the two Flamingo tech guys and ran in Yellow, though since White turned out to be an advanced student + instructor group rather than instructors only, Red probably would have been more appropriate. Anyway, on Saturday morning I ran my M3, but during my first session I ended up sliding clear off track at Turn 4 and coming within 8" of the Armco because (as I found out later) someone had been leaking oil all around the track. Thankfully I didn't touch the Armco and ended up in the gravel pit, where I had to wait for a tow because it was too deep to get any traction, but the car was fine. Then after my second session I noticed that my right front tire had been corded and chunked, so that was the end of the M3 for the weekend. Fortunately, my instructor friend (the other Flamingo guy) loaned me his gray market import E28 M535i running Toyo RA-1's and a few other mods. That thing had very little horsepower, so passing was a pain, but WOW those tires were awesome in the braking zones! It took me a while to get used to his setup because as you said above, MPSS's don't handle race pads particularly well, so I'd trained myself not to brake 100% in most cases because it would just light up ABS and unsettle my car. But once I started making myself stand on the pedal in his car, I had a ton of fun and was braking inside the 100 marker on the straights, whereas in my M3 I usually braked just inside the 150. And by the end of Sunday I was only 2 seconds off of his pace in that car.

I know the AD08 R's won't be like RA-1s or R888s, and of course his car has the benefit of weighing a lot less, but it sounds like they'll still be a good improvement over the PSS for braking and cornering. It's just less than ideal timing to be putting stickier tires on at the beginning of October since I probably won't be back out until 2015. Ah well.

Thanks again for the AD08 info!