DIY: S65 M3 Rod Bearing

[bponder]

Finally got to my rod bearings on my 2010 DCT 97k mile E92 after rebuilding my throttle actuators 1k miles ago. And btw as a EE don't even attempt to rebuild this circuit, there's some kind of high heat adhesive underneath the transistors.

I have no idea on the prior history of the vehicle, however, it ran like a champ for the last 30k miles I put on it, and I was always on top of the oil changes (every 3-5k).

Did this on jack stands, not a ton of fun.

I did screw up by opening a car door mid procedure and I could hear something in the electrical system trying to actuate repeatedly. I realized it must be due to the removed ground strap on the oil pan, so I re-attached and it chilled out. Hoping this didn't cause any other issues, but I'll find out in a few days.

Also, I noticed that rod #1 had finger loose bolts, I believe this is also a cylinder that usually has a darkened spark plug. But I think this was due to a leaky oil cap, which has been replaced. Not sure if I should really be concerned with this or not...

I'm now in the process of reassembling this beast and juggling my 24/7 job.

But I enjoy taking my time with the car, as I enjoy driving this car way too much. I'm cleaning all the parts and electrical connectors as I probably won't have this much exposed again for a while.

I'm hoping to work out a few remaining issues on the car after putting back together and then taking a nice drive through the Rocky Mountains as it's been an ass of a year.

[TX]

First off, great work doing this yourself on jack stands. That’s got to be a tough job. Judging by the marks on the new bearings I’d say you used BE. Excellent choice! I really want to know if rod bolts on cyl1 were only finger tight that can’t be possible. You would have had major issues prior to noticing. The oily plug is probably from a leaking spark plug tube above it or improper torque on that plug allowing it past. An oil cap won’t have anything to do with an individual spark plug. Did you drop in new plugs while you were at it? Cheers for the good work, but get some better beer than that founders all day stuff…

It’s typical for a flush mounted transistor heatsink plate on the back to be fully soldered to the board requiring great heat to release them. Usually a hot air solder station is required. Do you think this is the case or was it epoxied on the board? I’m tempted to go dig up my old TAs and see how they were done.

[thesilver_m3]

Wanted to ask because I have heard different things.

Do the oil pan bolts have to be replaced? If they are TTY obviously they need replaced, but have heard they can be reused. (Not sure if they are TTY or not)

[Assimilator1]

AFAIK they aren't TTY, so don't have to be replaced.
I reused my ones, I recall someone replaced them because some were rusty, but I don't recall coming across someone saying they're TTY, where did you hear that?

Btw, generally TTY bolts are used for high stress components, e.g cyl head bolts and rod bolts.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by thesilver_m3

Wanted to ask because I have heard different things.

Do the oil pan bolts have to be replaced? If they are TTY obviously they need replaced, but have heard they can be reused. (Not sure if they are TTY or not)

They do not. They are not TTY either.

[bponder]

Originally Posted by TX

Judging by the marks on the new bearings I’d say you used BE. Excellent choice!

-Correct Sir

Originally Posted by TX

I really want to know if rod bolts on cyl1 were only finger tight that can’t be possible. You would have had major issues prior to noticing.

-It's quite possible that I was not completely focused when I was losing those up... I'm also doubting it was loose prior to me touching it.

Founders beer is simply a default when insta carting at Sams club haha.

Originally Posted by TX

Usually a hot air solder station is required. Do you think this is the case or was it epoxied on the board? I’m tempted to go dig up my old TAs and see how they were done.

Theres most definely epoxy covering the surface of the transistor. Underneath is just solder. If you can get the epoxy removed and have access to a hot air solder station, I don't think you would have much of a problem.

Well I finally wrapped this up last weekend. What a complete PIA on jack stands. It makes everything 100x more difficult and time-consuming. I don't recommend it. If you do, just remove the subframe entirely.

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by 0100

Looks like 243 blue loctite is the new version that is suppose to be more oil tolerant. I think I will grab that.

Still debating on Red Line 80319 lube or motor oil. Probably going to try the redline lube.

The Tq wrench is going to keep me up at night. I can't pull the trigger on one.

Yes I over think everything too much...

There are many people who didn't use assembly lube, just engine oil, me included.

No need to run the engine without firing also. That's personal choice. I did not.

Torque wrench was a cheap one, 1/2" - 42Nm to 210Nm.

No problems at all until now. It's been a year and 1,500 mls.

[Assimilator1]

No need to run the engine without firing also. That's personal choice. I did not.

I think it's far more preferable to crank the engine without it firing, at the least when using oil to prelube the shells. That extended rattle (compared say to doing an oil and filter change) you get before oil pressure builds up can't be good, and I'm fairly sure the manufacturers advise to crank the engine before firing it up too.
And, at the end of the day, it isn't hard to do.

I don't think either of our engines will have suffered any serious damage though, but I'm still kicking myself that mine fired up when I didn't want it to (I thought the fuel pressure would have bled off over the time it had sat, but nope!). Hopefully they'll be no significant affect from that....

[Scharbag]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

No need to run the engine without firing also. That's personal choice. I did not.

I think it's far more preferable to crank the engine without it firing, at the least when using oil to prelube the shells. That extended rattle (compared say to doing an oil and filter change) you get before oil pressure builds up can't be good, and I'm fairly sure the manufacturers advise to crank the engine before firing it up too.
And, at the end of the day, it isn't hard to do.

I don't think either of our engines will have suffered any serious damage though, but I'm still kicking myself that mine fired up when I didn't want it to (I thought the fuel pressure would have bled off over the time it had sat, but nope!). Hopefully they'll be no significant affect from that....

Cranking will not generate good oil flow and pressure. The rattle is just the timing chains not being tensioned. Absolutely nothing to worry about.

Full flow happens in 2 seconds or so. No damage will occur to oiled shells in that time.

Just start it.

[Assimilator1]

Cranking won't generate full oil flow and pressure, that's true, but it will bleed the air out of the system.
And an engine that's been 'bled' via cranking starts much more quietly than one that hasn't, and you don't get the same level of noise when it's just cranking beforehand. So given the choice, I still think it's better to crank it prior to firing it up.

Also I'm not convinced at all that's just timing chain noise, it's too rhythmic for that, but maybe it's just the hydraulic followers pumping up?

All that said, the same noise occurs when starting just after changing the oil and filter, and that doesn't cause any problems. Although the rattle is quite a bit shorter then.

Anyway, like I already said, I don't think it will cause any serious damage, but I'd rather avoid the possibility of unnecessary extra wear (even if minor) by doing a simple thing like pulling the fuel pump fuse or relay and run it until it stops, or bleed the fuel pressure off.

[TX]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Cranking won't generate full oil flow and pressure, that's true, but it will bleed the air out of the system.
And an engine that's been 'bled' via cranking starts much more quietly than one that hasn't, and you don't get the same level of noise when it's just cranking beforehand. So given the choice, I still think it's better to crank it prior to firing it up.

Also I'm not convinced at all that's just timing chain noise, it's too rhythmic for that, but maybe it's just the hydraulic followers pumping up?

All that said, the same noise occurs when starting just after changing the oil and filter, and that doesn't cause any problems. Although the rattle is quite a bit shorter then.

Anyway, like I already said, I don't think it will cause any serious damage, but I'd rather avoid the possibility of unnecessary extra wear (even if minor) by doing a simple thing like pulling the fuel pump fuse or relay and run it until it stops, or bleed the fuel pressure off.

I've done all my last oil changes for basically 8 to 10 years. The first crank is like grinding bolts it makes me and anyone around me basically cringe. I've personally replaced both chain tensioners, but the noise has continued after a full drain oil change. I do drain it for over an hour usually and I run really really hard up to 210 before I pull the plugs. On the refill I fill the filter canister with a liter or two, but still noise for a few seconds. At this point I don't think it is chain related, but I can't say what it is. I'm sure someone here knows or has ideas.

Since the rod bearing replacement I've done one change and the noise wasn't there. (also ZERO ppm lead reported) One thing I'm really happy about is my oil temps reach normal ranges much faster after the BE swap. I used to have to drive a full trip 7 miles to work and it would still be cold, but now I am barely 1/4 the way there and it's past the first (dot) mark on the way to 210 which never happened before. I can only attest this to better oil flow on startup allowing for quicker warm ups.


Oil pressure is obtained in <2 sec. I do not believe bleeding is needed on these engines. cranking over and over is just adding to the duration before oil pressure is built.


I work almost daily around very large diesels, standby generators, marine engines.. In the generator range, basically all of what I work with is designed to fire and run at fully loaded RPMs instantly. We're talking several hundred KVA, Typically 350-750KVA.. The load transfers in under 3 seconds from a dead stop to full RPM. There are crankcase heaters on them to keep the oil temps up, but this proves that you do not need oil circulating by random cranks to obtain proper pressures. In most engines unless they were totally built from bone dry parts on a table, it's almost instant and less and 2 seconds at the worst as we know in our S65s.

Edit:
I originally opted for assembly lube, but was educated that oil was the better option and didn't argue that point.
So I will pass along that oil is totally acceptable for a bearing replacement in an already oiled engine.

[TX]

Originally Posted by thesilver_m3

Wanted to ask because I have heard different things.

Do the oil pan bolts have to be replaced? If they are TTY obviously they need replaced, but have heard they can be reused. (Not sure if they are TTY or not)

No the oil pan bolts do not have to be replaced unless the person you have removing them messes up the majority of the bolt heads removing them..and you find out later....You would never want these to be installed again....which is why you play it safe and you order and ask up front to use new bolts.
I asked for a backup set...I'm glad I did when I saw the heads of the ones removed..I'd never want them installed again.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by TX

I've done all my last oil changes for basically 8 to 10 years. The first crank is like grinding bolts it makes me and anyone around me basically cringe. I've personally replaced both chain tensioners, but the noise has continued after a full drain oil change. I do drain it for over an hour usually and I run really really hard up to 210 before I pull the plugs. On the refill I fill the filter canister with a liter or two, but still noise for a few seconds. At this point I don't think it is chain related, but I can't say what it is. I'm sure someone here knows or has ideas.

Since the rod bearing replacement I've done one change and the noise wasn't there. (also ZERO ppm lead reported) One thing I'm really happy about is my oil temps reach normal ranges much faster after the BE swap. I used to have to drive a full trip 7 miles to work and it would still be cold, but now I am barely 1/4 the way there and it's past the first (dot) mark on the way to 210 which never happened before. I can only attest this to better oil flow on startup allowing for quicker warm ups.


Oil pressure is obtained in <2 sec. I do not believe bleeding is needed on these engines. cranking over and over is just adding to the duration before oil pressure is built.


I work almost daily around very large diesels, standby generators, marine engines.. In the generator range, basically all of what I work with is designed to fire and run at fully loaded RPMs instantly. We're talking several hundred KVA, Typically 350-750KVA.. The load transfers in under 3 seconds from a dead stop to full RPM. There are crankcase heaters on them to keep the oil temps up, but this proves that you do not need oil circulating by random cranks to obtain proper pressures. In most engines unless they were totally built from bone dry parts on a table, it's almost instant and less and 2 seconds at the worst as we know in our S65s.

Edit:
I originally opted for assembly lube, but was educated that oil was the better option and didn't argue that point.
So I will pass along that oil is totally acceptable for a bearing replacement in an already oiled engine.

I've been a car mechanic for 26yrs, every petrol engine I've done an oil change on I've heard the start rattle, it's normal, nothing particular to the S65. (Diesel engines you often can't hear it over the engine itself, as you probably know). No need to change tensioners , or when you said 1st crank, did you mean any 1st crank, not just after an oil change?

and I run really really hard up to 210 before I pull the plugs
Sorry, don't understand that sentence.

I wasn't suggesting that cranking was ideally needed after a regular oil change, just after rod bearings as much more oil is drained off.
Re large diesels, ever work on a Deltic engine?

Strange about the oil temps, I would've thought that better oil flow would reduce oil temps slightly and possibly slightly lengthen warm up, weird that yours warms up more quickly.

[TX]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

I've been a car mechanic for 26yrs, every petrol engine I've done an oil change on I've heard the start rattle, it's normal, nothing particular to the S65. (Diesel engines you often can't hear it over the engine itself, as you probably know). No need to change tensioners , or when you said 1st crank, did you mean any 1st crank, not just after an oil change?

and I run really really hard up to 210 before I pull the plugs
Sorry, don't understand that sentence.

I wasn't suggesting that cranking was ideally needed after a regular oil change, just after rod bearings as much more oil is drained off.
Re large diesels, ever work on a Deltic engine?

Strange about the oil temps, I would've thought that better oil flow would reduce oil temps slightly and possibly slightly lengthen warm up, weird that yours warms up more quickly.

My main point I was trying to get across was that cranking the engine for the sake of building oil pressure wasn't needed and could possibly be worse than just firing it up on the first crank as it will build oil pressure faster at running RPM thus reducing rotation cycles at less pressure and flow.

First crank after an oil change. I really have no idea what is different after a full drain oil change from a normal start. I'd think the same amount of oil would be up in whatever components are making the chainsaw sound either way. Check valves come to mind, but I can't explain one vs the other.

The 210 comment was about running the oil up to full temperature for US gauges or even above before pulling the drain plugs for an oil change just to get as much oil and crud out of the engine by thinning down the oil as much as possible.

No, I've heard of Deltic, but never been around one.

I should include that some of these engines do have pre-lube systems, which kind of defeats my argument about cold starting large diesels to full RPM and load without cranking for oil pressure is acceptable. However, not all of them do and seem to manage fine.

Sorry for the earlier odd post and dragging the thread a bit off topic.
Cheers,
X

[Assimilator1]

No worries .

... and could possibly be worse than just firing it up on the first crank as it will build oil pressure faster at running RPM thus reducing rotation cycles at less pressure and flow.
No, it wouldn't be worse, true the pressure would build up faster, but you have combustion happening (in that short time) putting much more pressure on the bearings, as opposed to just cranking where you just have the pressure of the inertia of the piston and rod.
I'm sure I've read in manuals that you are supposed to crank beforehand (I'm going to look in the Suzuki online manual in a minute, if I can), but if not I guess we'll have to agree to disagree . [edit] Looking at the 1.6 Swift sport again, it seems Suzuki are quite happy with lubing the shells with just oil and I could find no mention of cranking it prior to firing it up, as far as I could find anyway in ~5 minutes of looking .
Anyway, at most, cranking to build up oil pressure might be pointless, but it won't be worse or cause harm.

Curious that some generators have pre lube systems and others don't. Are the ones that do have it have bigger cylinders? Or use thicker oil?

[0100]

Did I get the standard BE bearings? I got them from bimmerworld.

BE makes 2 different kinds of bearings.

Standard and +0.001 (which has less clearance)

I want the standard version, which I believe these are, just confused on the *std lower/+025 TOP on the box.

Picture of box sticker.
Thanks.

[Green-Eggs]

Originally Posted by 0100

Did I get the standard BE bearings? I got them from bimmerworld.

BE makes 2 different kinds of bearings.

Standard and +0.001 (which has less clearance)

I want the standard version, which I believe these are, just confused on the *std lower/+025 TOP on the box.

Picture of box sticker.
Thanks.

Yes this is correct. Because BE measures every single shell, they can create perfectly matched sets to ensure that everybody receives the same nominal clearances. Most of the time, but not all of the time, those perfectly matched sets are mixed sets of shells. In this case, you would place the 025 shells on top, and STD shells on the bottom.

[0100]

Ok that makes sense. Thanks!!

Last question. Is everyone using blue loctite on the steering column bolt?

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by 0100

Ok that makes sense. Thanks!!

Last question. Is everyone using blue loctite on the steering column bolt?

On the bearings, what Green-Eggs said

Yes, blue loctite is applied from the factory on that bolt, so it's a good idea

[0100]

Great thanks!

[IMS M3]

Big thank you to SYT_Shadow and his brother for helping to swap out my bearings this weekend. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone more thorough and careful - and just all around great guys. Also, the GearHeads facility was top notch.

Car is a 2011 with 11,900 miles. It has been babied by me the last 6,000 miles. From what I could tell, it looked like the prior two owners (both >60) also babied the car.

[nolaman1970]

BIG THANK YOU FOR THIS DIY!!!
Did this to my 2011 M3 62k Miles, BE and ARP only issues I had was missed 2 bolts on the pan, but once we saw them the pan fell down, so no need to pry or unstick gasket.
Took a solid day to do it all, one other issue was lining up the motor mounts, now I am thinking we should have left the lower bolts loose until it was pushed up into the top holes.
Used a hydraulic jack and a 4x4 to lift the subframe up.
The ECS guide says remove the F70 fuel pump fuse and leave the coil packs off to turn over for 30 seconds, but you have to just leave that fuse in or put it back before turning over.
All bearings had some wear, not as bad as I have seen, but there should be none.
Took 8.8 liters to fill exactly to correct oil level.
Had to lift the fan a little but left in, one bolt and some clips in order to reach the 32mm bolt to turn the engine.
One bell housing bolt would not come out completely due to pipe in the way but it came out enough to drop the pan.
Do part of Step 9, disconnect the headlight level sensor and sway bar.
Skipped step 8 and left the subframe hanging, with plenty of room to work.
Skipped part of step 12 photo 2 for the same reason, not removing sub frame.
Having the below printed guide helps a lot with the reassembly checklist too.
https://bd8ba3c866c8cbc330ab-7b26c6f...n_-_Turner.pdf