Cayman GT4 vs E92 M3 (very long but organized)

[Rajmun340]

Originally Posted by jphughan

I'm the OP, so no worries about the semi-threadjack.

If you don't feel any differences in EDC modes (at least between Comfort and Sport) going over concrete expansion joints or on roads with quick undulations due to earth shifting underneath or just plain damaged concrete, then something is up. Maybe the shipping blocks are still installed in your suspension, lol. But on my non-ZCP car, Comfort and Normal only felt different on back roads when driving for fun, but Sport felt very different from both of the other modes basically anywhere. The ZCP ride isn't significantly different just from the 10mm drop. That itself isn't a very significant change.

I think it's clear here that your perception of refinement under the hood and in the cabin are polar opposite from everyone else here, and this is just the responses you're getting in a GT4 thread. If you posted a new thread about this, I think the difference in perceptions would be even more stark. I would strongly recommend that you find another M3 owner willing to give you a ride or let you drive their car and also take a ride in yours. Shouldn't be hard; just make a thread asking for a local member to help you. Then at least you'd get another set of ears on your car and see what another example is like.

I think you are presumptuous trying to attribute the harsh ride of *my* m3 (notice that i was cautious not to generalize) on my supposedly "polar opposite" perception. That said, I have never come across a thread that calls the M3 ride "refined" in any modes before this thread and i've been a forum reader since 2007 on previous profile.

Shipping blocks would make a very visible gap between the fender and the tires, mine have barely any space left, can't be.
I am certain there is absolutely no difference between EDC modes in MY car from sport + to confort it is all the same. The leds do light up but that is all, I have always suspected something but never investigated. And before you call me a Sunday driver, I heal and toe for years and this isn't my first manual like your non-zcp m3 is. i have made arrangements to testdrive another ZCP M3, we will know.

For the record, ZCP has different maps for EDC, DSC and MDM. And Euro MDM is no way as agressive as ZCP MDM which based on your review you seem unaware of. Ask Koesel if you don't believe it. Many non ZCP owners of course are trying to downplay ZCP, not a surprise there.

I read your long Cayman review, at least some sections of it as i don't have much interest in a Cayman. The GT4 lacks the GT3’s engine pedigree. You can tell the Carrera S’s 3.8 isn’t a pure-bred Porsche Motorsport unit. It doesn’t operate with the same frenzy, snarl and snap, and is all done at 7,800rpm, rather than 9,000rpm. That's a big difference, I think part of your review touched on that. Deficiencies are masked by the noise - it’s loud and angry - not as racing in sound as the GT3 or the S65 for that matter. You cannot expect to compare a GT3 engine with a Carrera S engine. The Cayman is an entry level porsche, the one i would rather skip because i don't buy just to "get" the brand. Also i am big on esthetic and style and the Cayman front look rather unassertive, i prefer the 911 bolder looks.
Finally the car does understeer even with ajustments, so it also does not convince in the mid versus rear mounted engine.
I'll skip the limited production debate as that says nothing about a car.
Yes it is significantly cheaper than a GT3 but you get what you pay for, and i think the S65 has a better engine so altogether i am no Cayman fan.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

I think you are presumptuous trying to attribute the harsh ride of *my* m3 (notice that i was cautious not to generalize) on my supposedly "polar opposite" perception. That said, I have never come across a thread that calls the M3 ride "refined" in any modes before this thread and i've been a forum reader since 2007 on previous profile.

Shipping blocks would make a very visible gap between the fender and the tires, mine have barely any space left, can't be.
I am certain there is absolutely no difference between EDC modes in MY car from sport + to confort it is all the same. The leds do light up but that is all, I have always suspected something but never investigated. And before you call me a Sunday driver, I heal and toe for years and this isn't my first manual like your non-zcp m3 is. i have made arrangements to testdrive another ZCP M3, we will know.

For the record, ZCP has different maps for EDC, DSC and MDM. And Euro MDM is no way as agressive as ZCP MDM which based on your review you seem unaware of. Ask Koesel if you don't believe it. Many non ZCP owners of course are trying to downplay ZCP, not a surprise there.

I read your long Cayman review, at least some sections of it as i don't have much interest in a Cayman. The GT4 lacks the GT3’s engine pedigree. You can tell the Carrera S’s 3.8 isn’t a pure-bred Porsche Motorsport unit. It doesn’t operate with the same frenzy, snarl and snap, and is all done at 7,800rpm, rather than 9,000rpm. That's a big difference, I think part of your review touched on that. Deficiencies are masked by the noise - it’s loud and angry - not as racing in sound as the GT3 or the S65 for that matter. You cannot expect to compare a GT3 engine with a Carrera S engine. The Cayman is an entry level porsche, the one i would rather skip because i don't buy just to "get" the brand. Also i am big on esthetic and style and the Cayman front look rather unassertive, i prefer the 911 bolder looks.
Finally the car does understeer even with ajustments, so it also does not convince in the mid versus rear mounted engine.
I'll skip the limited production debate as that says nothing about a car.
Yes it is significantly cheaper than a GT3 but you get what you pay for, and i think the S65 has a better engine so altogether i am no Cayman fan.

What I actually said that was your comments about the M3's ride and noise are the polar opposite of others', which suggested to me that either your car is very different from others' or your expectations/standards are, or both. But ok, so "polar opposite" may have been an overstatement, but the fact remains that I've never read any criticisms of the E9x M3's ride quality or cabin noises that are even close to yours. My point was that most people, especially those with EDC, are surprised at just how nicely the M3 rides when driven normally, and perusing any of the "Is EDC worth it" threads will show that the majority of EDC owners will attest that the different modes make a significant difference. Granted there's more data there on non-ZCP cars since they existed for longer, but I've driven ZCP cars too, and their ride comfort was not different enough to stand out in my mind, and their EDC modes were still absolutely very different from each other. And lastly, I've never seen anybody describe cabin sounds in the M3 as resembling kitchen equipment and hurting one's ears, and I've been reading these forums for several years too. But again, if you doubt this, post your thoughts in a brand new thread where more people will see it rather than burying them in mine, and see what people say.

I'm perfectly aware that MDM is retuned for ZCP. The reason I didn't discuss that or how ZCP MDM compares to Euro MDM in my review is because I've never tracked a ZCP car, so I had no basis for making a comparison. I discussed what I had experience with because I try not to speak authoritatively on matters where I lack the relevant experience. But if ZCP MDM is even more lenient than Euro MDM, then ok. I seem to remember reading ZCP owners enabling Euro MDM and even people familiar with ZCP cars driving non-ZCP cars with Euro MDM enabled finding that Euro was the most permissive of all, and I can't find anything that MKoesel posted that contradicts that since you mentioned him, but if I'm wrong then I'm wrong. The bottom line for me was that Euro stopped bothering me on track when I was driving properly, which is all I cared about. I'm also not here to downplay ZCP. Yes, I was underwhelmed by what it offered and the difference in feel when I tried one, which in conjunction with my preferring the look of the 220M wheels and the fact that they were forged led me to pass on that option when I ordered mine. But whatever, I had a blast with my car for 4.5 years and it's gone now, so I have no dog in any ZCP vs non-ZCP fight.

As for your comments on my review, how much of what type of driving experience do you have in a GT4 with "adjustments", or even a GT3? If the answer isn't something meaningful, I don't understand why you're talking about engine feel and especially understeer. I mean yes, basically every road car understeers without substantial mods, but plenty of pros including Alain Prost find an understeer-biased car to be faster overall due to predictability, so I don't think understeer in itself is a crime. But of course understeer is a matter of degree, and a GT4 even bone stock with the factory alignment understeers a lot less than an E9x M3 even when the latter has camber plates and upsized front tires -- and that's just cornering BALANCE, never mind the huge difference in overall grip. I haven't driven the GT3, so I can't compare there, but from what I've read it understeers out of the box as well, and again, unless YOU'VE driven both, statements like "it also does not convince in the mid versus rear mounted engine [debate]" carry no credibility and are therefore irresponsible on your part -- especially given that posts on Rennlist from people who DO own or at least have significant experience in both cars show that they by and large disagree with your categorical statement. And that doesn't even consider that the 997 911s, including the GT variants, were often criticized for understeer tendencies out of the box, and even the current GT3 uses rear-wheel steering to help on that front, so extrapolating to statements about mid-engine vs rear-engine overall based solely on comparing one example of each layout is just plain bizarre to me, even if you WERE speaking from actual driving experience in each. And lastly, the only major review I can find calling out understeer as a problem is Motor Trend's, but if you read Randy's article from the later GT4/GT3RS test (link), after reiterating the understeer problem he encountered on the first test, you find this: "Among the four GT4s on pit lane was the very car I drove out west. From the first lap, it was clear we were in a new ballpark. The planets were back in alignment, as were the wheels and ride heights....Apparently, our first car was off-kilter because now the Cayman was back to its old wonderful self."

If the Cayman isn't for you, then fair enough -- more for the people who want them, especially with respect to the GT4. Although I question why you felt the need to drop into this thread, which I created just to give what I feel is an honest and unbiased comparison between the GT4 and E9x M3, and dump all over the GT4 relative to the GT3 and (engine-wise) the E9x M3, and then imply that only people chasing the brand would want it while people with standards would pass over any Cayman -- especially if again you're not speaking from actual experience driving a GT4 in any meaningful way, or at all. And although styling is subjective, while others have called the regular Cayman's front end unassertive, you're the first one I've seen do so about the GT4, which has me wondering if you've even seen one in person. Don't get me wrong, none of that hurts my feelings and it definitely won't diminish my enjoyment of my new toy, it just seems odd to me. Did someone piss in your cereal or something, like they seem to have before you created that strange "M4's engine sits 2 inches higher than S65. Embarrassing M4 facts" bash thread?

[Gesler]

Wth?!

The M3 is definitely more comfortable in comfort setting than my old 335i with run flats and performance suspension installed. I didn't get the ZCP as I didn't like the wheels and wanted the 220M.

Anyway, bit the bullet and bought a 'used' GT4 over msrp but was the cheapest I could find. The suspension in sport mode is jaw dropping - could feel everything through the soles and seat and the hands on the steering. Never experienced that before. The turning radius is also astonishing. Registering out of state car in CA proved to be a pain, especially as for some unfathomable reason, Porsche decided to hide the emissions compliance sticker on the engine. Haven't driven it around much and certainly don't have OP's track experience but looking forward to it.

[///M Ryder]

Originally Posted by JoeM3SSII

I read your long Cayman review, at least some sections of it as i don't have much interest in a Cayman. The GT4 lacks the GT3’s engine pedigree. You can tell the Carrera S’s 3.8 isn’t a pure-bred Porsche Motorsport unit. It doesn’t operate with the same frenzy, snarl and snap, and is all done at 7,800rpm, rather than 9,000rpm. That's a big difference, I think part of your review touched on that. Deficiencies are masked by the noise - it’s loud and angry - not as racing in sound as the GT3 or the S65 for that matter. You cannot expect to compare a GT3 engine with a Carrera S engine. The Cayman is an entry level porsche, the one i would rather skip because i don't buy just to "get" the brand. Also i am big on esthetic and style and the Cayman front look rather unassertive, i prefer the 911 bolder looks.
Finally the car does understeer even with ajustments, so it also does not convince in the mid versus rear mounted engine.
I'll skip the limited production debate as that says nothing about a car.
Yes it is significantly cheaper than a GT3 but you get what you pay for, and i think the S65 has a better engine so altogether i am no Cayman fan.

Is all of this GT4 hate real world seat time or news stand time? If it's actual seat time give us a review. If it's the news stand then I'll move along cause there's nothing to see here.........Phil

[6mtguy]

Thanks for a great informative review!

[digistyl3]

Congrats jphughan to your new GT4, and thanks for the awesome review!

I did this the other way around. Got my GT4 in February, and bought a used 2011 E92 M3 with Competition Package and DCT a week ago.

I also have a 2004 E46 330Ci 6MT with M-Sport Package, and the ride quality in the M3 is so much more composed. Having everything in Comfort mode results in such a pleasant drive in the city. On highway, it feels extremely planted, but I'm not sure if it's more quiet than the E46. The E92 cabin is more quiet in general, but I think I can hear more engine and tire roar. That V8 noise makes me giggle every time I hear it. Putting the EDC into Sport makes the suspension incredibly stiff and the car feels lighter. Comfortable, but confidence inspiring.

The GT4 is just a different animal. It's the most raw modern car I have driven. You can feel everything through your finger tips, lower back and bottom (especially if you have the LWBS). It's also incredibly loud. It has an old school burbly sound on the low end, and a fiery the-world-is-about-to-end WOOHOO-DANGER-ZONE scream at the top. It doesn't matter what sort of speakers are fitted in the GT4, as the flat-6 will outshout anything. The M3 feels very balanced and athletic, but the GT4 feels light as a feather, responding to every breath that touches the steering wheel and the pedals. It just begs to be pushed to its limits on a racetrack, and is constantly calling you: "come with me, let's have some fun, I'll teach you".

The GT4 has a very loud interior. After a few hours of highway driving, it gets very exhausting. The low and long front is the source of headaches on moderately steep ramps. Also, I find some buttons and switches to be of inferior quality compared to the M3. For example, the media controls click in a cheap, harsh way. The indicator feels cheap too. But nothing matters once you put it into first gear and drive off. I'm going to finally take it to a racetrack this weekend. I'm so impatient

Overall, I'm happy to own these gems of automotive history. They both feel special. The M3 can do everything extremely well, but the GT4 will give you a more pure driving experience at the expense of comfort and practicality.

[///M Ryder]

Originally Posted by digistyl3

Congrats jphughan to your new GT4, and thanks for the awesome review!

I did this the other way around. Got my GT4 in February, and bought a used 2011 E92 M3 with Competition Package and DCT a week ago.

I also have a 2004 E46 330Ci 6MT with M-Sport Package, and the ride quality in the M3 is so much more composed. Having everything in Comfort mode results in such a pleasant drive in the city. On highway, it feels extremely planted, but I'm not sure if it's more quiet than the E46. The E92 cabin is more quiet in general, but I think I can hear more engine and tire roar. That V8 noise makes me giggle every time I hear it. Putting the EDC into Sport makes the suspension incredibly stiff and the car feels lighter. Comfortable, but confidence inspiring.

The GT4 is just a different animal. It's the most raw modern car I have driven. You can feel everything through your finger tips, lower back and bottom (especially if you have the LWBS). It's also incredibly loud. It has an old school burbly sound on the low end, and a fiery the-world-is-about-to-end WOOHOO-DANGER-ZONE scream at the top. It doesn't matter what sort of speakers are fitted in the GT4, as the flat-6 will outshout anything. The M3 feels very balanced and athletic, but the GT4 feels light as a feather, responding to every breath that touches the steering wheel and the pedals. It just begs to be pushed to its limits on a racetrack, and is constantly calling you: "come with me, let's have some fun, I'll teach you".

The GT4 has a very loud interior. After a few hours of highway driving, it gets very exhausting. The low and long front is the source of headaches on moderately steep ramps. Also, I find some buttons and switches to be of inferior quality compared to the M3. For example, the media controls click in a cheap, harsh way. The indicator feels cheap too. But nothing matters once you put it into first gear and drive off. I'm going to finally take it to a racetrack this weekend. I'm so impatient

Overall, I'm happy to own these gems of automotive history. They both feel special. The M3 can do everything extremely well, but the GT4 will give you a more pure driving experience at the expense of comfort and practicality.

Very well stated without bias on either side. I'll hopefully pick up my GT4 in couple of days. After some seat time I'll report back on my findings.......Phil

[Hujan]

Good reviews, guys. Phil, congrats on that GT4. Let us know how you like it!

[///M Ryder]

Originally Posted by Hujan

Phil, congrats on that GT4. Let us know how you like it!

Now you know I'll definitely voice my thoughts on the driving experience. Really looking forward to some seat time. Now if this rain would stop around here so my car can make it's way to the dealership I would be good ......Phil

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by digistyl3

Congrats jphughan to your new GT4, and thanks for the awesome review!

I did this the other way around. Got my GT4 in February, and bought a used 2011 E92 M3 with Competition Package and DCT a week ago.

I also have a 2004 E46 330Ci 6MT with M-Sport Package, and the ride quality in the M3 is so much more composed. Having everything in Comfort mode results in such a pleasant drive in the city. On highway, it feels extremely planted, but I'm not sure if it's more quiet than the E46. The E92 cabin is more quiet in general, but I think I can hear more engine and tire roar. That V8 noise makes me giggle every time I hear it. Putting the EDC into Sport makes the suspension incredibly stiff and the car feels lighter. Comfortable, but confidence inspiring.

....

The GT4 has a very loud interior. After a few hours of highway driving, it gets very exhausting. The low and long front is the source of headaches on moderately steep ramps. Also, I find some buttons and switches to be of inferior quality compared to the M3. For example, the media controls click in a cheap, harsh way. The indicator feels cheap too. But nothing matters once you put it into first gear and drive off. I'm going to finally take it to a racetrack this weekend. I'm so impatient

Overall, I'm happy to own these gems of automotive history. They both feel special. The M3 can do everything extremely well, but the GT4 will give you a more pure driving experience at the expense of comfort and practicality.

Thanks! I agree with your thoughts on the E9x M3. For the GT4, I didn't find the cabin noise on the GT4 too tiresome on the 3-hour drive back home from the dealership, but that could be because I had so many other things on my mind at the time. Fortunately the stereo is good enough to cut down on the wind and tire roar somewhat when you're just cruising in 6th at up to say 80 MPH, but I agree that as soon as you're on throttle the noise comes back, so the M3 definitely makes a better highway cruiser. The front lip definitely causes me to go more slowly over bumps than the M3 (as does the fact that the rear suspension can feel crashy if you go over them too quickly) and I definitely angle the GT4 on steep driveways when I wouldn't have done so on the M3, but surprisingly I've only scraped maybe 4 times in 3500 miles (and all of them have been pretty light), and I've never had to go so slow that I've been a nuisance or hazard to traffic behind me.

And yes, I too noticed that the head unit buttons have the feel and sound of thin, cheap plastic. Not ideal, but then again just like the M3 I don't use the stereo too much in this car anyway, so I don't really care. Congrats on having both a GT4 and E9x M3 -- not a bad combination of cars at all!

[endur0]

jphughan I'm about 5 years late to this party, but thanks for this thread. Presently a ~7 year e90 owner and V250 on a 718 GT4. On the fence about keeping the M. After reading this, I think I'll keep it for a while after the GT4 arrives before deciding on selling. Among the several high performance cars I've owned, the S65 is one of my favorite engines and I really enjoy it combined with the M3's chassis when pushed hard. I'll post up a similar review after a few months of driving the 718 version.

[ChiTownM]

Originally Posted by endur0

jphughan I'm about 5 years late to this party, but thanks for this thread. Presently a ~7 year e90 owner and V250 on a 718 GT4. On the fence about keeping the M. After reading this, I think I'll keep it for a while after the GT4 arrives before deciding on selling. Among the several high performance cars I've owned, the S65 is one of my favorite engines and I really enjoy it combined with the M3's chassis when pushed hard. I'll post up a similar review after a few months of driving the 718 version.

I'll give you my viewpoint, as I have various different sport cars and also just got the M2CS. Every time I plan on selling the e92 I go for a drive and realize that the car is just different than anything else and I will regret selling it. I believe that the good e92 cars will increase in value vs. the current market.

Enjoy your cars!

[endur0]

Originally Posted by ChiTownM

I'll give you my viewpoint, as I have various different sport cars and also just got the M2CS. Every time I plan on selling the e92 I go for a drive and realize that the car is just different than anything else and I will regret selling it. I believe that the good e92 cars will increase in value vs. the current market.

Enjoy your cars!

Yep, I suspect if I sell it, ~3 years from now, I'll be buying another that's less sorted and at a higher price. You hit the nail on the head; it's a unique combination of desirable characteristics, and mine is fully depreciated.