Track forum general chit chat.

[Kelse92]

All you guys over here debating which compound of PFC's...
I've been very happy for the least 4 years with my variety of Cobalt Friction pads. I've had sets for the M3 when I was more novice with stock brakes, all the way up to aggressive sets with bbk and slicks, and now on my FRS. I've also heard great things about the CSG pads and may end up trying a set of those soon too.

Stainless lines are worth the upgrade on older cars like these are getting to be, they're worth the extra little spend. Castrol SRF and Endless 660 are my two favorite fluids. I used to be a die-hard SRF fan, but the Endless bottles are smaller and I can easily do a quick bleed with one and not feel like I'm wasting as much.

[leftfootbr8king]

Ss lines are not a performance upgrade where the lines being replaced are already in good shape.

they make sense if you want to feel confident in your brake maintenance schedule, and would be replacing the oem lines anyway (which themselves are mesh lined)

[Kelse92]

Yeah, that's more what I was getting at too. They're an upgrade to a stock part that is not as high-quality and old, but don't do anything really measurable for performance.

[M eyedoc]

Originally Posted by Redd

For those of you running Vorshlag camber plates, which caster holes/setting are you using? Trying to see what is max positive caster I can get without grinding out the strut top hole.

So apparently I am not smart enough to upload a picture, but I am in the two holes towards the front.

[Richbot]

Originally Posted by leftfootbr8king

Ss lines are not a performance upgrade where the lines being replaced are already in good shape.

they make sense if you want to feel confident in your brake maintenance schedule, and would be replacing the oem lines anyway (which themselves are mesh lined)

Pretty sure you're not allowed to say this on the internet

[leftfootbr8king]

Originally Posted by Richbot

Pretty sure you're not allowed to say this on the internet

But but but! After new ss lines my pedal feels so much better!

….Because all the new fluid that's running through those lines would have NOTHING to do with pedal feel.

Wait

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Redd

For those of you running Vorshlag camber plates, which caster holes/setting are you using? Trying to see what is max positive caster I can get without grinding out the strut top hole.

Just give Vorshlag a call. Terry or Jason can probably give you some guidance.

[leftfootbr8king]

Originally Posted by dparm

Just give Vorshlag a call. Terry or Jason can probably give you some guidance.

He's in Malaysia. Picking up the phone might prove challenging

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by admranger

I’m stunned that you’ve had those issues with 08’s. I’ve run them in some hot conditions at COTA and Spring mountain. No issues with NT01s at SM. Re-11’s at COTA, so not as much torque but still…. I’ve been known to overbrake vs under brake. Castrol SRF fluid for me.

Not saying you didn’t have issues, but I’m surprised (especially on the p-car). Faster driver, new issues arise I guess.

yeah idk seems odd. The idea behind an endurance compound is usually to sacrifice peak torque to maintain a flat torque curve across a broader temp range... I've tried a handful of different pads and always went back to pfc-08. They just work great and are consistent from low to high temps.

Here is the data on PFC pads (to see how they should perform on paper) instead of relying purely on anecdotal feedback:
https://pfc.parts/motorsports/pfc-compounds/

The charts show the friction coefficient of PFC pads up to 800c which is beyond the point of rotors glowing in broad daylight...

You can see how if someone has driven on pfc11 and then went back to pfc08 they may feel the 08 is lacking...because the 11 compound with some heat in it rises quite a bit whereas the 08 has pretty much a flat torque curve (rising a bit).

[Richneerd]

For anyone attending:

11/26/2021 Thunderhill East 3 Mile & Time Attack Round 7

https://www.turn8racing.com/event-de...attack-round-7

Anyone want to roll together? I'm coming from San Jose.

My last meet up going to Thunderhill West around 4:30 AM was:
76 Gas Station - 1700 Powell St, Emeryville, CA 94608

7 of us then rolled together.

[M eyedoc]

Originally Posted by dparm

Just give Vorshlag a call. Terry or Jason can probably give you some guidance.

That's actually the best idea. I talked to them when I had the bearings replaced. Great communication!

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

yeah idk seems odd. The idea behind an endurance compound is usually to sacrifice peak torque to maintain a flat torque curve across a broader temp range... I've tried a handful of different pads and always went back to pfc-08. They just work great and are consistent from low to high temps.

Here is the data on PFC pads (to see how they should perform on paper) instead of relying purely on anecdotal feedback:
https://pfc.parts/motorsports/pfc-compounds/

The charts show the friction coefficient of PFC pads up to 800c which is beyond the point of rotors glowing in broad daylight...

You can see how if someone has driven on pfc11 and then went back to pfc08 they may feel the 08 is lacking...because the 11 compound with some heat in it spikes like crazy whereas the 08 has pretty much a flat torque curve (rising a bit).

It seems odd that a sprint (i.e. pushing as hard as possible and producing massive heat) pad would work in a higher temp range than an endurance (i.e. driving more conservatively) pad?

That link you provided has a chart with temperature tolerance (and no scale given, but manufacturers like to be vague so it makes sense). However, it seems to show higher heat tolerance for 11 vs 08. Hmmm.

[redpriest]

Originally Posted by Richneerd

For anyone attending:

11/26/2021 Thunderhill East 3 Mile & Time Attack Round 7

https://www.turn8racing.com/event-de...attack-round-7

Anyone want to roll together? I'm coming from San Jose.

My last meet up going to Thunderhill West around 4:30 AM was:
76 Gas Station - 1700 Powell St, Emeryville, CA 94608

7 of us then rolled together.

Is Emeryville actually safe to do this at? Lol, only time I've ever almost gotten carjacked was at a gas station in Emeryville.

[Redd]

Originally Posted by dparm

Just give Vorshlag a call. Terry or Jason can probably give you some guidance.

Wanted to hear from owners as well. Cos I see most of the Vorshlag plates on our cars are installed with minimum caster and was curious why.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

It seems odd that a sprint (i.e. pushing as hard as possible and producing massive heat) pad would work in a higher temp range than an endurance (i.e. driving more conservatively) pad?

That link you provided has a chart with temperature tolerance (and no scale given, but manufacturers like to be vague so it makes sense). However, it seems to show higher heat tolerance for 11 vs 08. Hmmm.

Maybe I am reading it wrong then because I see the PFC08 (orange line) rises a bit all the way out to 800c. The PFC 11 (gray line) Also rises all the way out to 800c but at a significantly greater rate. They are the type of pad that will grab harder and harder deeper in the corner which some drivers dislike. Rolling off the brake is necessary just to maintain equal braking let alone allow for weight transfer off the front wheels before turning in.

Neither pad falls off in brake torque all the way out to the point that your rotors would be glowing...

You are right. There is no scale shown in terms of brake coefficient (like you said, there is no standard so comparing mu between brands is pointless anyway). However, the graph is useful for showing the relative performance of each pad.

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

It seems odd that a sprint (i.e. pushing as hard as possible and producing massive heat) pad would work in a higher temp range than an endurance (i.e. driving more conservatively) pad?

Yes odd based on how I understand the different materials used to make the pads. Sprint pads usually sacrificing brake pad wear and other characteristic to achieve greater brake torque. Endurance pads need to last a long time and the materials they are made out of produce a flatter torque curve across a broader temperature range.

Look a the other PFC offerings and you'll see what I mean. The pfc11 is actually a medium distance pad. Their actual sprint pads 333/13 compounds have a really high peaky torque curve but "fade" at 500c+. The torque falls off a cliff. When you call the pfc11 a sprint pad that is what I would think of. The PFC11 is basically a little more aggressive pad than the pfc08 but you shouldn't be getting brake fade with either pad. Is it possible that would could be interpreted as brake fade could actually be overheated tires and a more aggressive driving style as you get later into a track day?

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by bbnks2

Maybe I am reading it wrong then because I see the PFC08 (orange line) rises a bit all the way out to 800c. The PFC 11 (gray line) Also rises all the way out to 800c but at a significantly greater rate. They are the type of pad that will grab harder and harder deeper in the corner which some drivers dislike. Rolling off the brake is necessary just to maintain equal braking let alone allow for weight transfer off the front wheels before turning in.

Neither pad falls off in brake torque all the way out to the point that your rotors would be glowing...

You are right. There is no scale shown in terms of brake coefficient (like you said, there is no standard so comparing mu between brands is pointless anyway). However, the graph is useful for showing the relative performance of each pad.



Yes odd based on how I understand the different materials used to make the pads. Sprint pads usually sacrificing brake pad wear and other characteristic to achieve greater brake torque. Endurance pads need to last a long time and the materials they are made out of produce a flatter torque curve across a broader temperature range.

Look a the other PFC offerings and you'll see what I mean. The pfc11 is actually a medium distance pad. Their actual sprint pads 333/13 compounds have a really high peaky torque curve but "fade" at 500c+. The torque falls off a cliff. When you call the pfc11 a sprint pad that is what I would think of. The PFC11 is basically a little more aggressive pad than the pfc08 but you shouldn't be getting brake fade with either pad. Is it possible that would could be interpreted as brake fade could actually be overheated tires and a more aggressive driving style as you get later into a track day?

You are missing the second chart on the page you linked. There is a category called “temperature tolerance”.

And no, there is zero chance I’ve misinterpreted overheating tires for brake pads fading. I’m not exactly a novice.

I’m not sure why you are so adamant that 08’s on oe brakes can’t overheat and fade, and that 11’s can’t have a higher temp range. If you’re slow, or the track isn’t demanding on brakes you may not get fade, but it’s as if pad fade just isn’t possible in your mind, so I give up. I’m not trying to battle over this. Next time I’ll just keep my experience to myself. I was just trying to let a fellow M3’er know that there is a chance that the 08 will not be up to the task, and that if this becomes the case for that person then there may be another option for the oe brake system that is up to the task.

[Gouki]

Anyone doing Sonoma 11/8, Speed SF shared with Lotus?

[leftfootbr8king]

Tire and Brake component recommendations should come packaged like a baseball card. On the front you see the recommended component and by who, and then you flip the card over and see their tracks run, ave pace and fast lap.

Or you just take and give advice on these forums with a heavy pinch of salt.

On DE days where nobody wins everyone has their own idea of what considered "fast"

[Richneerd]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Is Emeryville actually safe to do this at? Lol, only time I've ever almost gotten carjacked was at a gas station in Emeryville.

LOL, I don't know, I didn't choose it, but if anyone that's going got a better meet up place, lets go

[dparm]

Originally Posted by leftfootbr8king

Tire and Brake component recommendations should come packaged like a baseball card. On the front you see the recommended component and by who, and then you flip the card over and see their tracks run, ave pace and fast lap.

Or you just take and give advice on these forums with a heavy pinch of salt.

On DE days where nobody wins everyone has their own idea of what considered "fast"

Look at who is winning championships and on what tires. Copy that setup.

[bbnks2]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

You are missing the second chart on the page you linked. There is a category called “temperature tolerance”.

And no, there is zero chance I’ve misinterpreted overheating tires for brake pads fading. I’m not exactly a novice.

I’m not sure why you are so adamant that 08’s on oe brakes can’t overheat and fade, and that 11’s can’t have a higher temp range. If you’re slow, or the track isn’t demanding on brakes you may not get fade, but it’s as if pad fade just isn’t possible in your mind, so I give up. I’m not trying to battle over this. Next time I’ll just keep my experience to myself. I was just trying to let a fellow M3’er know that there is a chance that the 08 will not be up to the task, and that if this becomes the case for that person then there may be another option for the oe brake system that is up to the task.

You seem to be missing where I made a generic comment about sprint pads vs endurance pads... and then pointed out that the pads ACTUAL characteristics (my generalization not being applicable anymore) might explain why you would feel pfc08's fade as compared to a pfc11.

I didn't say PFC11 can't have a "higher temp range." In fact, I linked to the manufacturers data showing PFC11 actually rise in brake torque as they get hotter. That is literally how to measure "heat tolerance..." I was basically proving that PFC11 have a better heat tolerance and merely providing a visual of that fact.

I do absolutely believe it's possible that any number of factors could extend a braking zone other than a brake pad that is supposed to provide the same friction out to a blistering 800c. I believe the charts are accurate enough. If you're getting true brake fade due to the PFC08 compound then I would personally recommend that you address your braking system itself instead of switching to a different pad.

If you're hunting lap times then of course there are better pads suited to the task. A significant numbers of pads produce a greater brake torque than the PFC08. You'll be bale to brake later and deeper with those pads picking up time in every corner. The PFC11 looks to be a nice bump but I was merely pointing out the above about what heat a PFC08 can actually handle before "fading." Fading meaning brake torque DROPPING due to heat. Again, look at the sprint pads (PFC333/PFC13) which FADE at 500c+ long before a PFC08 should be changing characteristics. They still produce greater brake torque up to 800c but that drop in friction is a visual of "fade."

[derbo]

Originally Posted by redpriest

Is Emeryville actually safe to do this at? Lol, only time I've ever almost gotten carjacked was at a gas station in Emeryville.

That Denny's next door is HOODRAT