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03-13-2011, 09:08 AM | #111 | ||
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Remember, I've already fully acknowledged that the DCT can be classed differently from a traditional planetary automatic. I've even said it makes sense to do this depending on context. The issue here is that you won't allow DCT to be classed in similar terms to any transmission that does not have two concentric clutches, regardless of whether a given term is suitably abstract such that the mechanical coupling and, in fact, the entire internals of the transmissions are not even in play. Earlier you suggested the term automanual fit the DCT, right? Now, let's see if what I just said in the last sentence of that last paragraph is true or not. Here's the hypothesis: Both the M-DCT and a BMW's Steptronic, a modern planetary transmission, are automanuals. True or false? And you're answer to this is? Quote:
Now, this is still a hybrid - because like you said in your post "Nonetheless, still 2 engines in parallel". The prius crowd doesn't like my car because it doesn't have an electric motor. But hey, I still got the diesel there, and it is very efficient. Doesn't matter to them though, they won't acknowledge that my new beast is a hybrid, and refuse to call it that. |
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03-13-2011, 06:07 PM | #112 | ||||
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Again with the wealth of transmission types and all of their associated implications (feel, performance, user interface, speed, efficiency) there is so little to be gained from forcing everything into 2 categories. Call an apple and apple and have multiple categories. Quote:
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03-14-2011, 08:51 AM | #113 | |||||
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And such strictness is great, but for better or for worse it happens that today's coloquial term "automatic" is the de-facto way to refer to a transmission when casually talking about a car. The interface is what was important to casual people, so that's the term that stuck. And, yes, it also just so happens that this is often a misnomer since a lot of transmissions have both a manual mode and automatic mode. Quote:
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I don't care what we call it, but if we define some term to mean "a transmisison that has both manual and automatic operation" then MDCT and Steptronic are both going to fit. Quote:
Also, no less can be gained by grouping passenger car engines into the two categories - say, diesel and gasoline. Yet, sometimes it absolutely makes sense to do that. And of course sometimes it makes sense to break them down based upon head configuration, induction type, or piston configuration., etc. |
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03-14-2011, 09:30 AM | #114 | |
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The car chris harris has driven was an prototype-car ... an it is no secret that the M-GmbH has build F10 M5s prototypes with M-DkG ... but to my infos they ruled out the DKG for the production-cars mostly because of cost issues ... the ZF 8-auto is much cheaper than the Getrag DKG ( and also because it was costly to modify the M-DKG so that it could withstand the torque from the M5 engine in longterm quality ) ... and electronic could make the ZF8 feel like an DKG. It make no sence to bring the new M5 with an Auto and with the M-DKG ... and people who had seen the real productin-car quoted, that this has the ZF 8-gear Automatic ... and also remenber the interview with an M official not long ago, were he praises the ZF8 and how sporty it was ... but: We will see !!! I hope my infos are wrong ... not because I would buy an M5, but for the consequence this would have for the new F32 M3. With an Auto in the M5 I could live ... with an Auto in the M3 I couldnīt !!! Last edited by Uli_HH; 03-14-2011 at 09:53 AM.. |
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03-14-2011, 10:23 AM | #115 |
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I hope we get this info next month when the Concept M5 debuts. The transmission choice they make for the M5 could very well have implications for the rest of the M lineup going forward. Of course we won't really know to what extent for a while, but to me it would not bode well for the future of M-DCT in any M passenger car if they give the M5 the ZF8.
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03-14-2011, 11:17 AM | #116 | |
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BC
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03-14-2011, 11:40 AM | #117 |
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X5 and X6 M are also autos, so it's not like it'd be a huge change now for the M5 to have one. I wouldn't necessarily want one, but the 8SP is a great transmission from what I've read.
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03-14-2011, 02:20 PM | #118 | |
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Cheers.
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03-14-2011, 03:00 PM | #119 | |
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The problem with terms like Steptronic is that it is simply a mostly aribitray, concocted word without much intrinsic meaning. You can contrast that against dual clutch transmission, which describes a great deal about the unit. Also, technically speaking, any old school automatic with a lever and button on the tranny tunnel also has a manual mode... However, I think anyone will agree that calling that an automated manual is absurd.
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03-14-2011, 03:18 PM | #120 | ||
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If the transmission feels like a DKG and performs like a DKG (shift speeds and efficiency), in my opinion, I would have no objection to such a transmission in a sports car of mine, M3 or otherwise. It will be VERY interesting to see how a true modern automatic would be named and marketed in the M3. There is simply too much stigma associated with automatics. That brings the discussion right back to the jargon discussion we got side tracked with right here! I have not sampled it personally, but from what I have read the automatic ZF transmissions in the XK and XF are about the best out there and feel awfully close to a DCT.
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03-14-2011, 03:21 PM | #121 | |
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"dual clutch pedals"???
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03-14-2011, 07:16 PM | #122 | ||
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http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...117961249.html Lot's of interesting language in there - interesting from a mass marketing perspective, I mean. Some things stick out like: "Ford Six-Speed PowerShift Automatic" "Ford's new dual-clutch PowerShift automatic..." "PowerShift is an automatic because the gear changes are coordinated by a computer that directs the clutches to engage and disengage in a way that provides seamless delivery of torque to the wheels, even during gear changes." They really are gearing up to convince buyers this is a very fancy new type of automatic transmission. For enthusiasts and for marketing of performance related vehicles I could see the term "automatic" perhaps being avoided as much as possible especially in the near term. But if DCTs do start to steal significant marketshare away from traditional automatics in basic appliance-type applications (which is by no means guaranteed, granted), accompanied with marketing campaigns and press releases like the one above, I think the momentum will be become tough to overcome such that eventually most everyone will just give in and call them automatics. I don't mean OEMs will necessarily only refer to them as such - they'll probably have tidy marketing names like Fords. But they probably won't waste too much money painstakingly trying to avoid associating them with the term "automatic" at all costs. After all, like I say, the point of the marketing from Ford (and probably others to follow, I suspect) is to convince everyone that these are some damn fine automatics. So nothing to be ashamed of there. And there's going to be a lot dollars spent on that message. As a player in the same industry at some point you may just find it in your best interest stop fighting those dollars and start piggybacking off of them. Quote:
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03-14-2011, 07:23 PM | #123 |
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Hey, I would never order another car without that Variable Vehicle Assistant. That thing has saved my ass many a time.
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03-14-2011, 08:26 PM | #124 | |
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A good discussion pretty well winding down. Sorry for boring those not concerned with this. I quite enjoyed the discussion and appreciate keeping it pleasant. I know I've already said it but I'm super keen to hear what the final M5 tranny will be and how it will perform. However, even more than that I want to know the curb weight of the next F3X 3er as that will tell us a lot about the potential for the next M3 to be lighter (or heavier) than the existing one. Uil: Any good information or rumors on that from Germany?
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03-15-2011, 10:34 AM | #125 |
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Without rancor, I disagree. "Dual Clutch" is only meaningful to folks like us, who can get excited by essentially new technology (counting the sophisticated computer control, which separates this design from the old Porsche unit). "Automated manual" is OK. "MultiClutch" might work, although that might also apply to a typical automatic. Come to think of it, "Dual Clutch" might also be used to describe the old Chevy Powerglide two-speed. Something like "AutoStick" would be better from a marketing standpoint. Or even better, "LightningShift" or some such. I'd leave it to the marketing types to come up with a better differentiator, but "DCT" and "DKG" clearly don't conjure up anything of value to a casual buyer.
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03-15-2011, 10:51 AM | #126 |
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This is the last interior-pic I have seen ... on the first look it looks like an M-DKG(DCT) Shifter, but if you take an closer look the shift-gate looks like typical for an eletronical shifted Auto ... but also AutoBild + AMS quoted it as DCT and I donīt think that BMW fools them by let them drive an prototype with the "wrong"-gearbox:
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03-15-2011, 11:11 AM | #127 | |
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Thanks. On the naming trends, it seems as if both BMW and Porsche have badly missed the boat, but marketing types have tried to distinguish their products with all sorts of terms, starting with "Hydramatic" of course. I assume that name was designed to highlight the fluid clutch in that unit. As automatics became more popular, we were treated to jargon like "Powerflite", "Torqueflite" (Chrysler), "Powerglide", "Turboglide" (Chevy), "Turbo Hydramatic", "Roto Hydramatic" (other GM), "Fordomatic" (I assume the marketing department was off that day) and "Cruise-O-Matic" from Ford, and, my favorite of all time, "Flight-O-Matic" from Studebaker, I think. Fanciful naming continues today, of course. As an aside, it's also been common to differentiate between even stick transmissions. Beginning in the '50s, "stick" wasn't enough. It became "three speed", "four speed", "three on the tree", "four on the floor", etc. Then Ford came out with their "Top Loader" four speed, named for its internal linkage. etc. Even today, folks tend to differentiate. For example, when people ask me what type of transmission I have in my Subie, I'll refer to it as a six-speed. Of course, this can lead to confusion. I've been privy to a conversation between 3 series owners, wherein one said he had a six speed, and the other said "They're both six speed. Which one do you have?" |
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03-15-2011, 08:01 PM | #128 | |
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The term is very descriptive especially compared to a lame one like Steptronic. However, I agree that it is not a majority of non-enthusiasts that know exactly what a dual clutch is. To give the term more credit though most folks do know what a clutch is and if a car is described as having 2 of them it will better spark some investigative curiousity, even for the non enthusiast. On a loosely related note it would be VERY interesting to know what % of M3 owners who have M-DCT know roughly that M-DCT is a twin clutch, parallel manual transmission and roughly how it works. I suppose I don't really want to know that answer. Great term listing in the post just prior as well! Enjoyed hearing some old ones and many new ones as well.
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