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03-06-2011, 03:47 PM | #89 |
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I do but it really has nothing to do with whether one transmission is a more of a technological leap than another, which was the central point of your retort as I read it. When it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter if we are talking about the first transmission ever concevied or some new transmission built using alien technology or wizardry.
Instead, it is simply a matter of avoiding a falacy of misclasification. Manual transmissions -------------------- H-gated, clutched Sequential manual (no clutch pedeal) Sequential manual (with clutch pedal) Automatic transmissions ----------------------- Planetary with torque converter Planetary with wet clutch Electrohydraulically clutched (what BMW improperly termed "SMG") Belted CVT Toroidal CVT We could go on, I'm sure there are others. The important part here is that all transmission will fall into one group or the other. Or if you really want, make that automatic group the automanual group instead (it's more accurate after all, as I've conceded earlier). What doesn't make sense - unless there is some ulterior motive, IMHO - is to insist that the DCT be set apart from all these others merely because its innovative. If anything, one could argue CVT is the odd man out here, deserving its own category since these transmission don't really shift at all in the traditional sense (well some do, but this is done artificially). |
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03-06-2011, 03:57 PM | #90 |
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03-07-2011, 08:15 AM | #91 | |||||||
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I meant to reply and make these comments yesterday, but ran out of time.
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03-07-2011, 09:09 AM | #92 | |
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03-07-2011, 10:28 AM | #93 |
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Read closely. I am not talking about the difference between BMW's SMG and BMW's (or anyone else's) DCT. Those two are both automatic transmissions - both electrohydraulically shifted automatic transmissions, in fact (albeit with very dissimilar implementations, yes).
His point - at least the one I agreed with - is that a true sequential manual transmission is not an automatic transmission at all, and secondarily cannot, in fact (very much by design) shfit gears in any way other than sequentially. Note Ferrari, Lamborghini and Aston Martin all have gearboxes that are the same in user operation and in internal mechanics to BMW's "SMG". Unlike the term "DCT" however, which is often applied generically to the dual clutch gearboxes used by BMW (Getrag), Audi (BW), Porsche (ZF), the term SMG has never been genericized to cover all single clutch automatics or auto-manuals. The reason for this is basic - its because that term was incorrectly used by BMW to begin with. Everyone else got it right. |
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03-07-2011, 06:49 PM | #94 | |
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Dogmatic insistence that every single transmission fit neatly into one of two categories does a disservice in my opinion. Disservice to all who want to know what it is and how it will feel and work in addition to something about the user interface. Also the clutchless sequential offers an interesting case. It is automatic in that the clutch is automatic. Your "bar" must then involve rising to the automatic category only if both the clutching and gear lever movements are automated? Finally, calling terminology opinions different than yours a "fallacy" is a bit of a stretch.... I am going to ask the mods to split off this topic and make a new thread for it.
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03-08-2011, 02:33 AM | #95 |
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To end all discussions about manuell and automatic-trannys ... and if an DCT/DKG ist more than an "auto" or an "manu" ... my infos about the new M3 F32 (no F30!) are:
This next M3 gets an 3.5ltr I6 TTT and an automatic-tranny only ... and because for me the M-DKG is to 100% an manuell-tranny, that meens that the new M3 gets the same ZF 8-Gear-Auto as the new M5! The engine of the new M3, an inline 6 with 3.5ltr. and 3 Turbos develops more than 450HP and more than 500NM (Redline max 7.500), so that the current M-DKG doesn´t work and the M-GmbH won´t spend the money to make it fit for more than 500NM ... also the ZF-Auto is much cheaper than the M-DKG ... and BMWs M-GmbH has developed the electronic, that it could make this 8-Gear Auto feel like the real M-DKG !!! So my current M3 with V8 and DKG would be my last one ... and would stay in my garage for long time. The only possible new M3 for me was an "newer" e90 M3 with V8/DKG and CP ... an decision to make this year! Greets Uli_HH |
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03-08-2011, 03:48 AM | #96 | |
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And supposedly this monster put out 750 HP and had a very quick ring time... Well, it was done as a one off (I think two were made), and it was done by M Division--you don't think any of them had said "hmmmm, a X5 M?" ? that X5 LM is the precursor, the spiritual daddy of the X5/X6 M |
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03-08-2011, 08:08 AM | #97 | ||||
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First, this same "disservice" has been done for decades to those who want to understand the internal workings of a planetary box. DCT technology changes nothing in this regard. In fact, the anecdotal evidence regularly bears this out in that by and large, even among enthusiasts, very few appear to genuinely understand how a "traditional automatic" with planetary gear sets really works. Sure, we all learn about torque converters at some point early on, usually in the context of why they "suck" and how they sap power as compared to a clutch (increasingly outdated notions these days). But the rest gets glossed over mainly because it is quite complex, IMHO (probably the most complicated mechanical system in a car, and this was especially the case in decades past before sophisticated computer-enhanced AWD systems and differentials appeared). But what about this notion of a "disservice"? Here you are missing the bigger picture. The fact is, categorization can take place over a number of different properties or attributes. Our debate boils down to whether the set of all transmissions can be partioned over the properties "automatic" or "manual". Maybe it can't, so for the sake of argument, we'll also add in your "automanual" term as well. Remember, just because we know that it is elementary to alternatively classify transmissions via how they operate internally, does not mean we cannot pick some other partition that is also perfectly valid as well. This is no different than observing that while we might typically classify flowers based on their species, we could just as easily classify them based on their colors as well. Both are valid. And while a botanist might scoff at the idea of the latter in general, a group of laymen might find the color classification very helpful. So can we effectively partition the set of all transmissions over the terms manual, automatic, and automanual? Sure we can. In fact, this takes place even as two transmissions with the same basic internal workings could land in seperate categories (just like with my flower example above, the same might happen with two of the same species of flower when grouping by color). For example, as discovered earlier, there are already both automatic (proper-automatic, I mean) DCT and "automanual" DCT on the market today. The two would then necessarily be in two different categories. And how do we classify? The criteria is simple: automatic means that user involvement in selecting ratios is never possible, automanual means user involvement in selecting ratios is possible but not necessary, and manual means user involvement in selecting ratios is mandatory. And that's it. In fact it is easy to see that these three criteria do represent a partition of the set of transmissions. Of course, as I mention earlier, we could instead partition on the internal workings. But if we do this, we must not attempt to put the planetary box in some subset we decide to term "automatic" while putting the DCT in some other subset we've termed "dual clutch" or "eletrohydraulically clutched" or somesuch. If we do, then we end up with a fallacy of misclassification. I.e. we are trying to sort things out based on two competing criteria, and it will result in invalid subsets (they won't form a proper partition). Quote:
But even if we redefine the term "automatic", that doesn't change how a DCT and planetary box operate today, nor does it mean that we can no longer partition the set of transmissions properly with this term and the related ones I use above. Instead if just means you now have added another set; maybe call it "partially automatic" and then rename the "automatic" to "fully automatic" or whatever else you want to call them. It does not under any circumstance mean that we have to throw away the whole idea of partioning them based on the criteria of how the user interacts with them, and now insist that they can only be partioned using the criteria of how they operate internally. Quote:
Last edited by mkoesel; 03-08-2011 at 08:13 AM.. |
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03-08-2011, 08:42 PM | #98 | |
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Good post (all of it). I continue to enjoy the discussion. I did ask the mods to move all of this to another thread which has obviosuly not been done. Seems a bit odd as they are usually quite responsive to reports made with the "!". Maybe you should report yourself as well!
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Let's take the most obvious example, in your scheme a DCT (not necessarily the M-DCT, just any dual clutch unit) can be called an automatic. Let's compare a very traditional automatic (say shifter on the tunnel, planetary gears and torque converter) to the DCT. An appropriate set of attributes might be the feel (subtleties of smoothness, jerk, shift feel, shift speeds, feel during launch, etc.), user interface, performance, sound and internal construction - really anything you can experience about the two transmissions. Are any of these experiences going to be similar between the two units? Certainly to an enthusiast they won't be and that is key to me. But also, even to anyone mildly observant about their vehicle, they will not be similar. In fact the only thing similar about them is that they both can select ratios automatically, your key differentiator. This is about as clear of a "disservice" as I can describe. This is again why journalists and manufacturers typically do refer to dual clutch units as such and CVTs as such. It would only be foolish for me to argue that these two transmissions can not select their own ratios obviously they can. Let's look to another automotive area for inspiration and relevance. Is the only important thing about an engine its number of cylinders? Is it being gasoline or diesel powered, is it 2 cycle or 4 cycle, is it NA or FI, V or inline, electric or hybrid? Most people absolutely care about more than one of these characteristics, especially in such a broad range of ICEs (and non ICEs). Claiming that we only need to describe gasoline vs. diesel is not entirely dissimilar to your scheme for transmissions!
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03-08-2011, 08:56 PM | #99 | |
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I do not find any of the details you posted surprising. Although I'm hesitant regarding true automatic transmissions, it is absolutely true that they have greatly advanced in recent years. If they can make a true automatic both feel and perform like a M-DCT, then I would not have a problem owning such a unit. We have discussed the displacement of the new M3 quite a bit and how to arrive at 3.5l is the question. Will it use the same bore spacing as the N55/N55? Perhaps it will be a stroked version? There is not a tremendous margin available on wall thickness between bores nor on piston speeds to get 7500 rpm. Will it have Valvetronic? See good discussions here and here. Well maybe not all of these threads are "good discussions" but there are plenty of smart posts. What do you say mkoesel, 3.5l we are hearing again?
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03-11-2011, 01:28 PM | #100 | |
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03-12-2011, 09:04 AM | #101 | ||||
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Thanks, yeah, its a good debate.
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For fun, let's assume someone comes up with never before seens type of combustion engine. Maybe it has variable displacement, HCCI, and an electromagnetic valvetrain. This engine, however, still has pistons (i.e. its not rotary, or turbine) and furthermore these pistons are arranged in a V. We'll call the engine ATCE (Advanced Technology Combustion Engine). Using that hypothetical, here's my best attempt at analogy to our debate, using engines: Person A: Boy, that new ATCE is a great V6, eg? Person B: Yep, it's awesome. It's not a V6 though. It's an ATCE. Person A: Well, yeah, ok sure, but it is still a V6 though. There are six pistons and they are arranged in a V shape. Person B: Yeah, but this thing is amazing! It uses HCCI, so its sort of like a diesel, but it burns gasoline instead. Very efficient. And no cam shafts either. You can't really group it in with today's V6 engines. Person A: Sure you can. Just because it offers a new design doesn't mean it can't be grouped in with previous technolgy. Otherwise we'd have to brake out all other engines based on different tech too - like direct injection, overhead cams vs. pushrods, etc. Person B: No because this is new and to gloss over all the advancements would be to miss the whole point of the engine. Person A: V6 engines have come a long way too, you know. What about all those advancements over the years? Person B: We still have to call this an ATCE. Person A: Then we can today's direct injected V6 something else too, maybe a GDI-DOHC. ...etc, etc, etc. I still say it is not practically possible using the current I6 architecture. And to come up with a new architecture now - unless it were to be the start of a new family to be used across all BMWs - makes no sense for a car that needs to hit the expected price point. |
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03-12-2011, 09:27 AM | #102 | |
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03-12-2011, 02:57 PM | #103 | ||
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03-12-2011, 03:24 PM | #104 |
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I assume there is (like my SMG). From any gear I can move the console joystick to neutral. However the system will select the appropriate gear when you move the joystick back (makes sense to keep the user from potentially overreving the motor). Same for M-DCT?
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03-12-2011, 03:31 PM | #105 |
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Levi: (OT again...) I like your signature. You don't really believe the MP4-12C will hit 7:00 in the Ring do you? My guess is 7:3X by Sportauto and 7:2X from a Pro/factory driver.
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03-12-2011, 03:34 PM | #106 | |
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I think they want some way to guarantee the transmission will go back to the same gear it was in before you went to N. It would be possible for someone to design one that worked that way (as long as speed is still close to where it was when in gear), but probably doesn't offer much value. I remember before I had a DCT thinking like those guys - that I'd want more control over when the car was in and out of gear. But once you try it you realize it's not as important as you thought it would be. |
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03-12-2011, 03:42 PM | #107 | |
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Both engines in your example are absolutely gasoline ICEs. That is "evolution" in my evaluation. Continuing with the engine analogy a DCT is somewhat more like a hybrid in that it is 2 transmissions running in parallel. Sure not a perfect analogy since a typical hybrid uses an ICE and an electric motor say rather than 2 ICEs. Nonetheless, still 2 engines in parallel. What do we (all of us) say powers such vehicle - we just call an apple and apple and say "hybrid"! Both the drive and the drivetrain are specialized enough that they very appropriately deserve and get their own terms. Doing otherwise does a disservice to all, hyper-milers, eco trendy soccer moms or tech inclined early adopters alike.
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03-12-2011, 04:34 PM | #108 |
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^^ 2 suggestions: 1) there should be an "ultimate tech" thread to hash out this type interpretive engineering and to keep every thread from getting hijacked, and 2) for every thread hijacker a 25 cent deposit should go into a central fund to be used for whatever (prizes, giveaways, donations to survivors of lost members, etc).
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03-13-2011, 12:07 AM | #109 |
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Ha, "inerpretive engineering". Funny term. Here it is really semantics and jargon at the center of this debate. I asked the mods twice to try to move the OT debate to another thread. They are usually more than willing to do so. Not sure what is going on here.
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03-13-2011, 08:52 AM | #110 |
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OT: The MP4-12C is now the best handling sportscar, and goes from 0-300 km/h in 24,5 sec. Even by Sportauto it may run the N-Ring under 7;25 min.
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