Track forum general chit chat.

[Richbot]

The notion on the internet about lower pressures also seems to bear out in testing. Sometimes.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

the variables in ambient driving conditions and driving style are going to make the small differences in those two sized negligible.
in a lab controlled test, i would theorize the taller tire would dissipate heat better.
tire carcass size is directly related to its thermal properties.

here is an experiment for you- slap your oem brakes back on with proper race pads, borrow some 18's and a 275/35/18 tire of your choice and smash your previous personal best. (sorry, had to go there.)

It's killing me how psyched he is about getting two days out of a shitty tire when he could be on NT01 for several days going faster for longer

[ThunderMoose]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

It's killing me how psyched he is about getting two days out of a shitty tire when he could be on NT01 for several days going faster for longer

I think his car chews through all types of tires.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

It's killing me how psyched he is about getting two days out of a shitty tire when he could be on NT01 for several days going faster for longer

Don't be so judgmental.
I am using inexpensive tires to test changes I made from last year. At $120 a tire, it served its purpose.

[Kelse92]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

It's killing me how psyched he is about getting two days out of a shitty tire when he could be on NT01 for several days going faster for longer

I dunno, I find it interesting.
At least there's somebody out there bucking the system and trying every cheap tire they can get their hands on. We all go back to the same 4-5 tires/compounds out there and recommend the same stuff over and over when the question gets asked around here...Yes they are all good options, and thats why they are recommended, but you never know when you might find something new that works for your situation without some testing. Hell, if there was only one track within a reasonable radius of my house to go drive at, I would maybe consider doing something similar just to keep things interesting vs driving thousands of laps over and over again on the same expensive tires. I'm just lucky I personally have 3-4+ choices of places and configurations to go drive on any given weekend. Plus, now there's some data somewhere about driving on track from a real-world perspective on different tires and not just Tire-Rack's tests.

Dollar-to-dollar in a regression analysis its probably a financial wash, but hey, it keeps things interesting.
However, this is all also coming from me, the type of person who documents every detail on conditions, shock tuning, tire pressures, spacers used, etc just for an autocross

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Don't be so judgmental.
I am using inexpensive tires to test changes I made from last year. At $120 a tire, it served its purpose.

Lol not really judging you. That is just not cheap at all to me, in any way (price to performance, price to life, perhaps price to survive in this case)

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Lol not really judging you. That is just not cheap at all to me, in any way (price to performance, price to life, perhaps price to survive in this case)

Not that many people do 1:40 at NYST with 3400Lbs car and M3 type coup. I wouldn't be quick to say I give up performance.

Also, two front R7 are $840. Two new FFI500 from eBay were less then $300. And I do as many track days as I can. It adds up! So economics matter.

I am not sure what I am giving up here, I am having fun and learning to control the car.

The last two days I was almost the entire day with DSC off. In fact, for the first time my lap time was better with DSC off compares to with Euro MDM on. To me, this was an achievement.

I am learning a lot from this forum, but there is a tendency to oversimplify a very complex and conflicting physics and economics requirements. Hence, just do this or that does not quite capture the complexity.

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by rhyary

Not that many people do 1:40 at NYST with 3400Lbs car and M3 type coup. I wouldn't be quick to say I give up performance.

Also, two front R7 are $840. Two new FFI500 from eBay were less then $300. And I do as many track days as I can. It adds up! So economics matter.

I am not sure what I am giving up here, I am having fun and learning to control the car.

The last two days I was almost the entire day with DSC off. In fact, for the first time my lap time was better with DSC off compares to with Euro MDM on. To me, this was an achievement.

I am learning a lot from this forum, but there is a tendency to oversimplify a very complex and conflicting physics and economics requirements. Hence, just do this or that does not quite capture the complexity.

I think his point is you would save money going 275 NT-01 square and get better performance. Those things basically last forever and you can rotate, although they sound like a jet fighter taking off so probably not much fun to drive to the track. Unless you have your own tire machine you are also paying someone to mount new tires every time which adds up.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by Montaver

I think his point is you would save money going 275 NT-01 square and get better performance. Those things basically last forever and you can rotate, although they sound like a jet fighter taking off so probably not much fun to drive to the track. Unless you have your own tire machine you are also paying someone to mount new tires every time which adds up.

The NT-01s don't come in sizes I need.

NYST is abrasive track, good for traction, bad for the wallet.

At 1:41 pace or faster Tires last two days of 7x20min (280 min) at best no matter brand or size. Pace matter.

As I said, it is complicated activity and there is no Nike solution (Just do it...man)

[turbo_joe]

Originally Posted by rhyary

The NT-01s don't come in sizes I need.

They come in the sizes you need, just not the sizes you want.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by turbo_joe

They come in the sizes you need, just not the sizes you want.

haha, good one

[Ximian]

Carbotech makes brake pads in the right shape for the ST60 kits. I'm trying to pick a decent compound to match a Carbotech front with a PFC 08 or PFC 11 rear. Any suggestions? There doesn't seem to be much experience with them.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Ximian

Carbotech makes brake pads in the right shape for the ST60 kits. I'm trying to pick a decent compound to match a Carbotech front with a PFC 08 or PFC 11 rear. Any suggestions? There doesn't seem to be much experience with them.

XP12 if you have a sticky tire and can get heat into the brakes. FWIW I tried Carbotech and couldn't justify the price over the Hawks. They were also a LOT noisier.

PFC can custom make pads for that caliper, BTW. Just call and talk to them -- I think they usually need an old set so they can measure.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

The NT-01s don't come in sizes I need.

NYST is abrasive track, good for traction, bad for the wallet.

At 1:41 pace or faster Tires last two days of 7x20min (280 min) at best no matter brand or size. Pace matter.

As I said, it is complicated activity and there is no Nike solution (Just do it...man)

If you have a decent alignment I'll tell you right now the NT01's will last much longer then 14 heat cycles.

It seems like you enjoy trying new things, ie. experimenting with different tire compounds and sizes. I don't know if the motivation is you just really like to try new things, which may be the case. Or you're trying to work around your setup (19" wheels) and are forced to. In the long run it will probably be cheaper to invest in some 18" wheels and run a good 275 r-comp that lasts (NT01, RR, AR1). Like someone mentioned above, it the cost of re-mounting and balancing tires that you go through in 1 day will add up, no matter how cheap the tire is. This is just how I look at it though.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by dparm

XP12 if you have a sticky tire and can get heat into the brakes. FWIW I tried Carbotech and couldn't justify the price over the Hawks. They were also a LOT noisier.

PFC can custom make pads for that caliper, BTW. Just call and talk to them -- I think they usually need an old set so they can measure.

For D1247 pad shape, Hawk DTC pads are 400-600 and PFC pads are 580+ on Zeckhausen. Not a great deal for 18 mm thick pads.

Carbotech XPs are 230-260. Noise isn't an issue as I'll swap to the street pads because nothing sounds worse than my PFC 08s.

[rhyary]

Originally Posted by tsk94

If you have a decent alignment I'll tell you right now the NT01's will last much longer then 14 heat cycles.

It seems like you enjoy trying new things, ie. experimenting with different tire compounds and sizes. I don't know if the motivation is you just really like to try new things, which may be the case. Or you're trying to work around your setup (19" wheels) and are forced to. In the long run it will probably be cheaper to invest in some 18" wheels and run a good 275 r-comp that lasts (NT01, RR, AR1). Like someone mentioned above, it the cost of re-mounting and balancing tires that you go through in 1 day will add up, no matter how cheap the tire is. This is just how I look at it though.

I like my setup the way it is.
If I want to change the setup, A GT3 rather than M3 is doing well at NYST.

I do like to experiment with tires and suspension setup. I like to make a change, and see how it feels. No matter what I, or anyone, chose to run, the challenge is to maximize the traction for that setup.

There is much hoopla over the choices between 18" and 19" wheel. But no one here yet ran R7 275/35/18 square and 265/35/19 and 295/30/19 and documented that one setup, on the same car is faster/better.

I see people gutting their cars, drilling holes, and removing wires but I don't see someone actually documenting the wheel setup.

For all the ones that suggest that I will go 18", let me make a suggestion, buy 19" wheel, go 265/33/19 and 295/30/19 and prove that the 18" is faster. Don't just recommend that I will change the setup.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Ximian

For D1247 pad shape, Hawk DTC pads are 400-600 and PFC pads are 580+ on Zeckhausen. Not a great deal for 18 mm thick pads.

Carbotech XPs are 230-260. Noise isn't an issue as I'll swap to the street pads because nothing sounds worse than my PFC 08s.

Wow, that's a really great price for a pad that big.

Originally Posted by rhyary

I see people gutting their cars, drilling holes, and removing wires but I don't see someone actually documenting the wheel setup.

It's because tons of people have tracked the E9X for years and there are setups that are proven to work. That doesn't stop you from finding out what you like best, but there is a reason that most people stick with one of a handful of different setups.

[Ximian]

Originally Posted by dparm

Wow, that's a really great price for a pad that big.

BW sold the PFC 83 compound for about the same $230 price for a similar pad shape but that's not quite compatible with ST60 which is why I have a "For Sale" post on that.

I've exchanged a few e-mails with Carbotech and was told not to pair their pads with my PFC pads in the rear for to stock caliper as I would be risking locking up the rear. Just seems very odd, like the expectation is that the torque from the PFC pads in the rear is greater than the Carbotech pads in the front.

[roastbeef]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I see people gutting their cars, drilling holes, and removing wires but I don't see someone actually documenting the wheel setup.

the fastest e9x m3's in the world run 18's in a few varieties of staggered and square widths. there is no research to be done with 19's- they aren't faster.

[tsk94]

Originally Posted by rhyary

I like my setup the way it is.
If I want to change the setup, A GT3 rather than M3 is doing well at NYST.

I do like to experiment with tires and suspension setup. I like to make a change, and see how it feels. No matter what I, or anyone, chose to run, the challenge is to maximize the traction for that setup.

There is much hoopla over the choices between 18" and 19" wheel. But no one here yet ran R7 275/35/18 square and 265/35/19 and 295/30/19 and documented that one setup, on the same car is faster/better.

I see people gutting their cars, drilling holes, and removing wires but I don't see someone actually documenting the wheel setup.

For all the ones that suggest that I will go 18", let me make a suggestion, buy 19" wheel, go 265/33/19 and 295/30/19 and prove that the 18" is faster. Don't just recommend that I will change the setup.

Originally Posted by dparm

Wow, that's a really great price for a pad that big.





It's because tons of people have tracked the E9X for years and there are setups that are proven to work. That doesn't stop you from finding out what you like best, but there is a reason that most people stick with one of a handful of different setups.

I love that you enjoy testing and documenting new setups.

People have suggested these things so you don't need to be replacing tires after 1, or at most 2 days (according to you), of track use. The caveat being, that's only if you are actually looking for a tire that lasts longer, I don't know. You could be completely content with your current setup and wear, in which case I understand why you don't feel the need to change anything.

Unfortunately it's not that simple to just test a 18" vs 19" setup. Are you using the same tire setup on both? Are you using the same wheel, but in 18" and 19", or an 18" and 19" wheel that weigh the same? You suggest a 275 square R7 setup on 18's compared a 265/295 stagger on 19's. To me, I don't see the point of this comparison, but since 19" limits you to those sizes I guess you don't have much choice.
Either way, the 18" setup would likely be faster. It will weigh less per corner, you'd have virtually the same, if not more, front grip with the 18's. And using an R7 on a NA car, a 275 rear is sufficient - the 295's on the 19's will just be heavier, have more rollin resistance for no real benefit.

Like dparm, roastbeef and others have said, there is a reason why the 18" setup is so common and popular. It's a tried and true setup. The fastest and best setup E92 M3's run 18's. Professional race teams (including BMW motorsport) set their cars up with 18's, whether it's for competition or lapping. There is a reason why you don't see 19's commonly used on this platform.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by roastbeef

the fastest e9x m3's in the world run 18's in a few varieties of staggered and square widths. there is no research to be done with 19's- they aren't faster.

Exactly. There are so many things to learn in the track world. Which tire/wheel setups to run on an E9X M3 is not, IMO, one of them

I do my best to stay out of this conversation. It's a waste of time. If someone wants to climb mount everest wearing their pjs and walking on their hands instead of their feet I don't want to waste time explaining that feet are for walking and goretex and technical clothing are good to avoid you from freezing

[roastbeef]

he's limited by wheel size because of his brake size, so i fully understand that part of his equation. but the notion of 19's vs 18's is just not up for debate.
he has brembo carbon brakes with fi-r wheels, by the way.