M3 vs 2012 C63 AMG Coupe

[gthal]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

C63 AMG Coupe.

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Originally Posted by gthal

The M3 being in it's almost production year played a huge roll in my decision. I can't wait though.

[miktrebla09]

C/D recently tested a 2012 C63 Coupe:


C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 3.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 8.6 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 14.0 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 4.3 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 2.5 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.7 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 12.1 sec @ 120 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 174 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 161 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.91 g



Compared to that of the 2012 M5:

[Ateam]

Am I reading that invoice wrong or does it say about 6k for the "extra 30hp"??

That is a total rip for 30hp. I would get the limited slip and call it a day. The thing does not need any "extra" hp for gosh sakes. You will never put that power down where it counts anyway.

[Jive]

RS5 vs 2012 C63 Coupe test: http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/08/f...nz-c63-amg-co/

Since in many of the RS5 vs M3 tests, the M3 triumphs, naturally i would think the M3 would have the upper hand over the C63 Coupe (at the track). The fun factor on the other hand... that C63 looked like a beast that needed to be tamed and it sure did look awfully fun. M3 or C63 Coupe, I don't think you can go wrong either way.

[Nine]

Originally Posted by Ateam

Am I reading that invoice wrong or does it say about 6k for the "extra 30hp"??

That is a total rip for 30hp. I would get the limited slip and call it a day. The thing does not need any "extra" hp for gosh sakes. You will never put that power down where it counts anyway.

[KonigsTiger]

Originally Posted by Nine

Ah, but more is always better!!

[IFX]

Originally Posted by KonigsTiger

Ah, but more is always better!!

lol exactly...

[mdosu]

Originally Posted by -=Hot|Ice=-

do you have to buy the lighting package?

[-=Hot|Ice=-]

Unfortunately, yes.

[bimmerj]

I drove bmws for the last 20 years. I am keeping my C63!

George

[Ateam]

wow it has 18 inch wheels as an OPTION? Can't believe at this price point and how big the car is 19s are not standard. 18s look tooo small

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Ateam

wow it has 18 inch wheels as an OPTION? Can't believe at this price point and how big the car is 19s are not standard. 18s look tooo small

18s are standard... there are two styles. 19s are an option... the same as the M3. The car is no bigger really than the M3 and the 18s look very nice compared to the 18s on the M3.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Ateam

Am I reading that invoice wrong or does it say about 6k for the "extra 30hp"??

That is a total rip for 30hp. I would get the limited slip and call it a day. The thing does not need any "extra" hp for gosh sakes. You will never put that power down where it counts anyway.

As a former 2009 C63 sedan driver I agree with you about the P31 package.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by gblansten

As a former 2009 C63 sedan driver I agree with you about the P31 package.

I look at the P31 package as a factory endorsed and warranted tune with extras. Lots of people spend the same to get 30hp on the M3 and lose warranty in the process (think tune and exhaust). Also, the package (in Canada) gives you the LSD which, IMO, is essential, suspension upgrades, real carbon fibre trim and upgraded brakes. Put that all together and $6k isn`t too bad.

[bimmerj]

From some dyno results, some people are saying the 30 hp is more like 55 to 60hp.

[Ateam]

Originally Posted by gthal

I look at the P31 package as a factory endorsed and warranted tune with extras. Lots of people spend the same to get 30hp on the M3 and lose warranty in the process (think tune and exhaust). Also, the package (in Canada) gives you the LSD which, IMO, is essential, suspension upgrades, real carbon fibre trim and upgraded brakes. Put that all together and $6k isn`t too bad.

You are missng the point (I know its your car so your choice) but the m3 could "use" more "torque" or pulling power down low especially and in general 414 hp is not difficult to put down in that car so another hypothetical 40hp would be a great benefit that WOULD be put down with ease and make a difference in both straight line and corning/track speed.

However with the c63 you are already going to be wild in the corners with even half throttle so 30 more hp is not needed. Straight line acceleration it can barely get off the line and put down the "stock" power, let alone 30 more. You would ONLY use 30 more hp on a top speed run on the autobahn and you are in the US so that is not going to happen.

Its your money to burn and 6k may be nothing to you and I am not saying dont do what makes you feel better but its one use of 6k on this car that I think will offer you absolutely nothing your entire life of the car that you would not get from a stock car. Its a marketing gimick for this car as 455 is already more than the chassis can handle .

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Ateam

You are missng the point (I know its your car so your choice) but the m3 could "use" more "torque" or pulling power down low especially and in general 414 hp is not difficult to put down in that car so another hypothetical 40hp would be a great benefit that WOULD be put down with ease and make a difference in both straight line and corning/track speed.

However with the c63 you are already going to be wild in the corners with even half throttle so 30 more hp is not needed. Straight line acceleration it can barely get off the line and put down the "stock" power, let alone 30 more. You would ONLY use 30 more hp on a top speed run on the autobahn and you are in the US so that is not going to happen.

Its your money to burn and 6k may be nothing to you and I am not saying dont do what makes you feel better but its one use of 6k on this car that I think will offer you absolutely nothing your entire life of the car that you would not get from a stock car. Its a marketing gimick for this car as 455 is already more than the chassis can handle .

I obviously don't agree (and that's OK ) and here's why...

1. Everyone puts wider rubber on the back to deal with the power. So, putting down power isn't as hard as you think and the "opportunity" to replace the tires will only be 8-10,000 miles away

2. The extra horsepower isn't extra torque so not a huge impact on navigating a corner on track. Torque is what you need to manage in corners and the P31 package does nothing here.

3. The extra power will make a real difference in any acceleration once the car is rolling... NOT just top speed runs. Lots of empirical evidence to support this and the difference is meaningful. A P31 car will pull several lengths on a non-P31 car from a roll and will catch one and then pull from a dig.

4. The LSD (which is part of the package) absolutely DOES makes a HUGE difference putting the power down. That option alone is worth the majority of the package price IMO.

5. Even with the package added... the C63 coupe (in Canada) is $10,000 less than the M3 so adding the package is irrelevant from a cost perspective (in comparison to an M3). In the US, the cars would be similar in price fully loaded so, again, the price is irrelevant unless you want a base, stripped car but not many in reality ever do this as a percent of cars sold anyway.

You are right that a stop light race will not benefit from the 30hp. So what. Who cares about stop light races? On the track at speed or on the highway, it will absolutely make a difference. C&D just clocked one at 12.1 @ 120mph for the quarter mile and 8.6s to 100 mph. Seems to me the extra 30hp does make a difference. Those numbers are close to GT-R numbers (no, I'm not saying it is as fast as a GTR but is getting close).

Until you have spent time with a NEW version of the C63 with revised suspension, etc, you can't say how the extra power will impact the car. However, I can tell you the chassis can absolutely handle it. All of these cars, M3... C63... RS5... CTS-V... are all about excess. They all have more power than we "need." But that is what drives enthusiasts. Look at all of the folks who supercharge their M3s. Can you put that power down as efficiently as a stock car? No way.

What I'm saying is that the package does add measurably more acceleration and performance (track and street) than without. Is it incrementally more? Yes. But everything we do with cars of this caliber are about incremental improvements. And, as I said, many people will spend as much or more in non-factory, non-warrantied mods to get similar increases in performance... whether a car "needs" it or not.

Is the base enough... sure it is. Is the P31 package better? Absolutely and until you drive one for a time, you can't suggest otherwise. Is the additional performance worth the $$... well, that's up to the buyer but I would suggest more than 50% of cars will be ordered with it. 3.7s to 60, 12.1 with a 120mph trap speed in the 1/4 mile isn't too shabby... oh wait, the car can't put the power down. Oh, that's on stock tires too... add a set of AD-08s in a 275 rear when the tires need replacing and see how that improves again. I agree that "need" is subjective but when you are spending >$70k on a car, does $6k really make that much of a difference? If it does, I would argue the car is too expensive in the first place.

So, to say that the extra power adds nothing to the car is not accurate and not correct based on comments from those who have owned the cars. There is data to show otherwise and the new version of the C63 does manage the power better than the older model years. So, you can feel that the extra benefit isn't worth it for you but to say it will add nothing to the car is just uninformed and completely unsupported.

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by Ateam

You are missng the point (I know its your car so your choice) but the m3 could "use" more "torque" or pulling power down low especially and in general 414 hp is not difficult to put down in that car so another hypothetical 40hp would be a great benefit that WOULD be put down with ease and make a difference in both straight line and corning/track speed.

However with the c63 you are already going to be wild in the corners with even half throttle so 30 more hp is not needed. Straight line acceleration it can barely get off the line and put down the "stock" power, let alone 30 more. You would ONLY use 30 more hp on a top speed run on the autobahn and you are in the US so that is not going to happen.

Its your money to burn and 6k may be nothing to you and I am not saying dont do what makes you feel better but its one use of 6k on this car that I think will offer you absolutely nothing your entire life of the car that you would not get from a stock car. Its a marketing gimick for this car as 455 is already more than the chassis can handle .

Well seeing he actually bought the car, I'm pretty sure he knows what the car is offering and isn't "missing" anything.

We've already had this discussion in another thread in the general M3 forum. Up here in Canada, where gthal is, a fully loaded C63 coupe is already a bargain compared to a fully loaded M3.

$90k?? No way. I have one quoted around $81,000 fully loaded, all in. That is $8,000 less than a fully loaded M3 and almost the same price as a fully loaded car in the US. Seems to me that Mercedes has a smaller price gap US to Canada than BMW does Makes buying a C63 in Canada to be a real bargain compared to the M3.

New C63 coupe bases at $66 900 with the M3 coupe at $71 900.

Full load is "only" $82 140 for the Merc while the M3 climbs all the way to $92 100 with DCT.

Additionally, as gthal already mentioned, the $6K is not just for the power upgrade. It includes:

AMG Carbon Fibre Trim
Performance Package
AMG Trunk Lid Spoiler in Carbon Fibre
Red Brake Calipers
Electronic Speed Limiter Deletion
Tire Pressure Monitoring System
Additional Horsepower
Limited-Slip Rear Differential

So for "only" $82K up here you get a fully loaded, absolute beast vs. those that spend $92K on a comparable M3 and then dump several thousand dollars into it for performance upgrades looking for the same power bump. If you've read any of the reviews on the new 12's, the gap has been closed between these two cars. Handling is improved and now the C63 has unmatched power in the class.

It's your money, but if you think $10K more is worth it for a much less powerful M3 feel free to burn it however you wish.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

So for "only" $82K up here you get a fully loaded, absolute beast vs. those that spend $92K on a comparable M3 and then dump several thousand dollars into it for performance upgrades looking for the same power bump. If you've read any of the reviews on the new 12's, the gap has been closed between these two cars. Handling is improved and now the C63 has unmatched power in the class.

It's your money, but if you think $10K more is worth it for a much less powerful M3 feel free to burn it however you wish.

I agree... obviously.

One thing though. I am NOT suggesting the C63 is a better overall car than the M3 because, IMO, it isn't. It is better in some ways (much faster) and not in others (the M3 is still a better chassis on the track) but they are now very close and the one that is "better" is based on personal preference of the buyer. Before the 2012 C63 coupe, I would have said the M3 was clearly the better overall car. I would probably still say that today but it is now very, very close. For a DD street car with only occassional track use, the C63 is now the better car IMO (interior, huge power and torque at all speeds, features and options). For those who spend a lot of time at the track, I would still take an M3 (better chassis balance, control, etc).

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by gthal

I agree... obviously.

One thing though. I am NOT suggesting the C63 is a better overall car than the M3 because, IMO, it isn't. It is better in some ways (much faster) and not in others (the M3 is still a better chassis on the track) but they are now very close and the one that is "better" is based on personal preference of the buyer. Before the 2012 C63 coupe, I would have said the M3 was clearly the better overall car. I would probably still say that today but it is now very, very close. For a DD street car with only occassional track use, the C63 is now the better car IMO (interior, huge power and torque at all speeds, features and options). For those who spend a lot of time at the track, I would still take an M3 (better chassis balance, control, etc).

I don't really disagree with anything you've said here.

At the end of the day, they are all great cars and the gap has been closed due to the benchmark that the M3 set. There isn't a "bad" choice in this segment, just personal preferences. It will be interesting to see what the new M3 looks like and how it's priced up here.

[Ateam]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

I don't really disagree with anything you've said here.

At the end of the day, they are all great cars and the gap has been closed due to the benchmark that the M3 set. There isn't a "bad" choice in this segment, just personal preferences. It will be interesting to see what the new M3 looks like and how it's priced up here.

ISF is a "bad" choice relative to the rest-have you driven one? RS5, C63 and m3 cannot go wrong that is forsure