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02-03-2024, 03:59 AM | #23 | |
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OK, so my favour bank is well and truly empty..... But I have factual information on the S65 rod bearings from the original drawing. Firstly the original bearings are NOT Clevite. They were 100% produced in Trento, Italy by MAHLE / Glacier Vandervell (MAHLE acquired them in around 2007). Previously DANA owned Glacier Vandervell as well as Clevite. The OE bearings are marked with the CL marking as well as 113- this does not indicate Clevite manufacture, but the internal material code CL113. At this time my understanding is all DANA material codes started CL. If there are any doubts on this information I can also confirm the original drawing is in 100% Italian with no English. For obvious reasons I cannot share the drawing, but I have attached a screengrabs showing the material code / bearing markings and you can see the drawing is in Italian. Note this drawing will NOT be shared, so please retrain from asking The original bearings were manufactured in 2 grades (blue & red), which is normal for OE bearings. Running the data on housing size, crank size and all possibilities of bearing grade being used gives the following information: mean clearance was 0.046mm and the grading scheme allowed a total range of 0.029/0.062mm In reality I would not expect the engines to have left the factory with both thicker grades if the clearance was at the lower end of the range - but this is an assumption on my part Hopefully this will help end (or fuel!) the debate on these bearings |
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02-03-2024, 06:05 AM | #24 | ||
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As I mentioned in the m3cutters thread, MaximumBob's claim that there are more engine failures in the US than the UK, is, so far, unfounded. He has not produced any numbers to substantiate that idea, again, so far. [belated edit] On the 4th MaximumBob did actually post some data on this (see here). Interestingly it's a slightly updated version of the list started by SeniorFunkyPants here in 2014, last updated 2015. Although this is some supporting data to his theory, a major problem with this dataset is that most people posting here and thus of engine failures are from the US, so the data is inevitably skewed towards US engine failures. Even were he to, that doesn't change the fact that nearly every single OEM lead/copper bearing removed is knackered to some degree, this seems to be routinely 'forgotten' over at m3cutters for some reason. Even the later tin/alu/copper bearings are routinely pulled out showing some excessive level of wear (even though, so far, none seemed to have gone through the babbitt). Quote:
Btw those clearance numbers from BE wiki are measured clearances from an unknown(?) number of shells, but even if it were a couple of dozen, it still wouldn't have told us what BMW's target/nominal clearances are. What bearings have you got? And have those bearings been running 5/40 since new? If not you'll have no idea whether that oil has had any bearing (no pun intended!) on their condition.
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. Last edited by Assimilator1; 02-06-2024 at 03:15 PM.. |
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02-03-2024, 01:51 PM | #25 | |
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Interesting to see Hondas F20 is running on 5w30 without bearings issue and S65 10w60 with bearing problems. Them having the same clearances makes me curious about mine in the 5w40 |
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02-03-2024, 05:59 PM | #26 | |
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02-03-2024, 07:27 PM | #27 | |
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02-03-2024, 08:46 PM | #28 | |
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02-03-2024, 10:56 PM | #29 | |
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“So there are two camps: Federal Mogul, which owns Glyco and Goetze and Fel-Pro. Mahle, which owns Clevite, Vandervell, Victor Reinz.” |
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02-04-2024, 07:27 AM | #31 |
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Yea I wondered why he asked that, I'm curious.
I wouldn't have thought it would illuminate the EML, unless there was a severe drop in oil pressure! Green-Eggs That was resoundingly disproven in the bearing wiki thread by comparing the number of failures in both places on a per-capita basis. Can you remember where that is? Also, does the bearing wiki say anywhere how many OEM bearing sets were measured? I couldn't see that anywhere. "Supporting measurements" list 12 engines, is that how many OEM bearing sets were measured? If so, how many of each type?
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. Last edited by Assimilator1; 02-04-2024 at 07:54 AM.. |
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02-04-2024, 10:14 AM | #32 |
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02-04-2024, 11:00 AM | #33 | |
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MAHLE don't own Victor Reinz. They used to use the brand under license for the US market only. Victor Reinz is still owned by Dana |
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02-04-2024, 11:17 AM | #34 | |
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02-04-2024, 01:12 PM | #35 |
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Around 2010 was the change date from memory. EU mandate banned lead in car production from, I think, 2011.
After this date all OEM / OES bearings were the Glyco lead free parts which superceded the earlier Glacier Vandervell parts containing lead. |
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02-04-2024, 01:49 PM | #37 |
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Glyco has been supplying BMW since the E30 m20 engines. It’s seems funny that they would go from Glyco to Glacier then back to Glyco. I have never seen anything other than Glyco come out of a OEM BMW. I could be wrong
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02-04-2024, 07:25 PM | #38 | |
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At the time the S65 bearing wiki was created, BMW had already switched to Glyco, I think a few years back. Finding any virgin 088/089 shells was nearly impossible. We found one set left in BMW inventory, and it took phone calls up the chain of command for them to search and find them. So these measurements represent a single set. The 702/703 measurements come from a single set as well. Many people forget this, and get reminded when they claim that Bert "proved" the newer shells have extra clearance. That clearly was not the case. |
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02-05-2024, 03:53 AM | #39 | |
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Too funny....green eggs is such an inveterate liar. My 2009 E92 M3 oil test results from Blackstone were posted in the Oil analysis thread (post#136) on 10-24-2013 where I inferred that it was one of the highest copper content recorded to date. I kept my 2009 M3 for another year and then traded it in with ~60k miles for a 2013 E92 M3 with 3k miles. I traded the 2013 E92 M3 in 2017 for an F82 M4 (a very disappointing car). So now we finally have the official original BMW E9x M3 OEM RB mean clearance taken from the original drawings held by Mahle of 0.046 mm. Not to be confused with side clearance obviously...as some clown did above. Lol. An RB clearance that looks remarkably similar to the clearance quoted for a large number of other BMW engine in the wiki. AFAIK none of which have suffered the same catastrophic RB wear. What now for the tight bearing house of cards?...much obfuscation and deflection I would imagine. On UK engine failures: There continue to be very few UK engine failures as a function of productions numbers..not per capita as that would just be stupid. What is the total number of USA engine failures at the moment...must be in the many hundreds by now. On usernames... You: Pencil geek..banned Regular guy...banned OM VT3...shill username used to discredit other bearing suppliers Green Eggs...hilariously pretending not to be part of BE bearings. I can't believe I've been sucked back into this nonsense. Last edited by Sneaky Pete; 02-11-2024 at 03:10 AM.. |
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02-05-2024, 08:57 AM | #40 |
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Why would Honda spec a 5W30 oil viscosity for their S2000 and BMW spec a 10W60 oil viscosity for the S65 E9X M3 when the rod bearing clearances are similar?
>>> The Honda S2000 Honda S2000 (F22C1) Engine capacity - 2 ltr Engine power - 237 hp Hp/ltr - 118.5 Redline - 8000 RPM Preferred oil spec - 5w30 Rod bearing clearance variance - 0.02-0.06mm Crankshaft pin/rod journal diameter - 49.988mm Clearance to Journal Size Ratio - 0.008mm S65 specs Engine capacity - 4 lts Engine power - 414 bhp Bhp/ltr - 103.5 Redline - 8300 RPM Spec'd oil - 10w60 Nominal rod bearing clearance - 0.0381mm (0.00150") Rod bearing clearance variance - 0.0292 - 0.0508 mm (from BE's S65 wiki for the later Alu/tin shells, which apparently have a slightly higher minimum) Crankshaft pin/rod journal diameter - 51.9786-51.9887 mm (official specs posted in the S65 wiki) Clearance to Journal Size Ratio - 0.0007mm Source Assimilator1 's thread: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1827360
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02-05-2024, 10:07 AM | #41 | |
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All early S65 bearings marked CL 113 (which is assumed incorrectly to be Clevite) were manufactured by Glacier Vandervell (now owned by MAHLE) in Trento, Italy. |
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02-05-2024, 10:12 AM | #42 |
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Unfortunately I have no information on the Glyco bearings and no way of "acquiring" it either. I would expect that Glyco would design a new part based on their own data and not "copy" another bearing design. I've never known that to happen at OE level.
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02-05-2024, 11:24 AM | #43 |
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Where did BMW get the cocaine they used when they wrote the specs
christ
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02-05-2024, 03:31 PM | #44 |
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What is the third commandment?
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