(ENGINE RUNS!!!!) Broke down my engine block and changed the engine

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by jvictormp

I bet more on an inline fuel filter, but I can't figure out where to install it yet.

But there's already a filter in the tank, right? So why bother?

Your car sounds great btw

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

But there's already a filter in the tank, right? So why bother?

Your car sounds great btw

I think that if it doesn't clog, then it doesn't filter. It just holds big solid particles.

[Assimilator1]

Hmm, ok, I've not come across this being a problem for petrol cars in the years I've been a mechanic, but never say never!

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Hmm, ok, I've not come across this being a problem for petrol cars in the years I've been a mechanic, but never say never!

Taking advantage of your experience history, have you ever seen any car not using any fuel filter after pump?

[spammysammich]

Originally Posted by jvictormp

Taking advantage of your experience history, have you ever seen any car not using any fuel filter after pump?

In my experience, modern Subaru STI haven't had an in-line fuel filter since 2007. They use in-tank filter systems, I have a 2008 and still on the original with no signs of fuel pressure issues or clogged injectors. I'm still on my first set of coils and injectors for that car in fact. I should probably change at least the in-tank filter. It feels weird to not change a fuel filter with more than 160K miles on a car.

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

In my experience, modern Subaru STI haven't had an in-line fuel filter since 2007. They use in-tank filter systems, I have a 2008 and still on the original with no signs of fuel pressure issues or clogged injectors. I'm still on my first set of coils and injectors for that car in fact. I should probably change at least the in-tank filter. It feels weird to not change a fuel filter with more than 160K miles on a car.

At least, you can change it.

BMW didn't want us to change it, because it's locked in the pump case, right? You have to change the entire assembly.

Anyway, if the example you said runs for 160k miles and doesn't clog, I feel the same about BMW's. Maybe the injectors are not prone to fail like BMW's are.

I don't know, just thinking.

[spammysammich]

Originally Posted by jvictormp

At least, you can change it.

BMW didn't want us to change it, because it's locked in the pump case, right? You have to change the entire assembly.

Anyway, if the example you said runs for 160k miles and doesn't clog, I feel the same about BMW's. Maybe the injectors are not prone to fail like BMW's are.

I don't know, just thinking.

I got really lucky, previous owner of my e92 changed the fuel pump/transfer pump, injectors and fuel pressure sensor before I bought the car so I'm not so worried about my car. I'm very interested to see how we collectively go about mitigating fuel problems in the future.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by jvictormp

Taking advantage of your experience history, have you ever seen any car not using any fuel filter after pump?

Until spammysammich mentioned the STIs upto 2007, I didn't think any petrol engined car since roughly the early 2000s (not sure exactly when tbh) used inline fuel filters after the pump.
I very rarely work on Subaru's (possibly the last one was prior to 2013 when I left my previous job), mostly I work/worked on the 'regular' models from Ford, Vauxhall (aka Opel), VAG cars, BMW, Citroen, Peugeot, Renault, Rover, Honda, Toyota, (probably missed some other common manufacturers) and since 2013, largely (3/4?) Suzuki's.
You'd think that would have changed with direct injection on many petrol engines now, but unless I just haven't seen it, lol, or been given one to do yet, Suzuki at least still don't have an inline filter for their DI petrols.

[spammysammich]

This was in my YouTube suggestions today and may be relevant to m3 ownership

[kyrix1st]

Maybe this is a US specific issue because of the ethanol content?

[spammysammich]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Maybe this is a US specific issue because of the ethanol content?

Could be.

[Assimilator1]

What is US ethanol content?
UK and EU for regular unleaded is up to 10% now (super UL is still 5%).

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

What is US ethanol content?
UK and EU for regular unleaded is up to 10% now (super UL is still 5%).

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Maybe this is a US specific issue because of the ethanol content?

Originally Posted by spammysammich

Could be.

Brazil's gasoline has got 27% of ethanol.

[amrazM]

Originally Posted by spammysammich

So I've been very curious about your initial issue that bent the rod; leaking/bad fuel injector/hydrolock. This is supposedly something the S85 engine is notorious for. Injector leaks are infamous for bore scoring in Porsche engines. Considering that a lot of us park our cars for a long time or use them only for weekend use or possibly have access to bad quality gas, should we be using fuel additives more often? Would techron or PEA based additives even make a difference for us?

Porsches suffer similar damage because they have a similar cylinder finishing process, the 928s also used an alusil liner which is subsequently prone to getting scored rather easily.

The issue I think here is really just running the fuel level low periodically and causing sediment and other debris to be picked up by the fuel system, theres not much you can do about this. It really doesnt matter where you get your fuel as you can encounter contamination from really any storage location of the fuel after distillation. Most top feed injectors eventually see failures.

Injectors are cheap enough where we are at a point to replace them as a preventative factor.

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by amrazM

Porsches suffer similar damage because they have a similar cylinder finishing process, the 928s also used an alusil liner which is subsequently prone to getting scored rather easily.

The issue I think here is really just running the fuel level low periodically and causing sediment and other debris to be picked up by the fuel system, theres not much you can do about this. It really doesnt matter where you get your fuel as you can encounter contamination from really any storage location of the fuel after distillation. Most top feed injectors eventually see failures.

Injectors are cheap enough where we are at a point to replace them as a preventative factor.

By the way, the cylinder walls on the bad engine were all good, except for the specific damage when the rod hit them.

[Assimilator1]

Originally Posted by amrazM

Porsches suffer similar damage because they have a similar cylinder finishing process, the 928s also used an alusil liner which is subsequently prone to getting scored rather easily.

The issue I think here is really just running the fuel level low periodically and causing sediment and other debris to be picked up by the fuel system, there's not much you can do about this. It really doesn't matter where you get your fuel as you can encounter contamination from really any storage location of the fuel after distillation. Most top feed injectors eventually see failures.

Injectors are cheap enough where we are at a point to replace them as a preventative factor.

Sorry, but I think the idea that running fuel low will pick up extra rubbish is a myth, remember the fuel pump is always pulling from the bottom of the tank anyway. So if there is gunk down there, it wouldn't need low fuel to pull it up.
Also the filter in the tank will stop that (but not water or very fine dirt).

Not sure what you mean by top feed injectors, I can't think of an injector that isn't, unless I've completely mis-understood you!?
Now, I've never worked on Porsche's (or super cars), and have only ever worked on my own M3, but in the 27yrs I've been a mechanic (15+ yrs involved with diagnostics) I only ever recall 2 port injector injectors fail! (I'm in the UK FWIW). So Porsche aside, it's very rare for them to fail.

I've wondered myself whether it would be worth changing them preventatively, you could be right, but it's so rare for them to cause problems for the S65, hmm....

Originally Posted by jvictormp

Brazil's gasoline has got 27% of ethanol.

My, admittedly limited, understanding of ethanol in petrol is that in can cause problems for certain types of rubber (corrosive to it IIRC). I'm not aware of any issues for injectors.

Though, can ethanol hold more water than neat petrol? (something about that rings a bell).

[spammysammich]

Quite common for Subarus to use side feed injectors. For packaging constraints. A lot of built EJ engines are converted to normal top feed.

[spammysammich]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

Sorry, but I think the idea that running fuel low will pick up extra rubbish is a myth, remember the fuel pump is always pulling from the bottom of the tank anyway. So if there is gunk down there, it wouldn't need low fuel to pull it up.
Also the filter in the tank will stop that (but not water or very fine dirt).

Not sure what you mean by top feed injectors, I can't think of an injector that isn't, unless I've completely mis-understood you!?
Now, I've never worked on Porsche's (or super cars), and have only ever worked on my own M3, but in the 27yrs I've been a mechanic (15+ yrs involved with diagnostics) I only ever recall 2 port injector injectors fail! (I'm in the UK FWIW). So Porsche aside, it's very rare for them to fail.

I've wondered myself whether it would be worth changing them preventatively, you could be right, but it's so rare for them to cause problems for the S65, hmm....

My, admittedly limited, understanding of ethanol in petrol is that in can cause problems for certain types of rubber (corrosive to it IIRC). I'm not aware of any issues for injectors.

Though, can ethanol hold more water than neat petrol? (something about that rings a bell).

Yes I think the fact that high ethanol content petrol can have more water and attack rubber seals makes it problematic for fuel injectors not designed to use it. I recall listening to a talk from PCCA describing the interaction of e85 and such fuels on the fuel systems not specd to use it.

[Assimilator1]

jvictormp

I can't remember what the final thoughts were on what caused your engine failure now (I don't fancy trawling through 11 pages either ). I want to update the 'blown engines' thread list.

Could you update the op with the latest info?
(actually, am I right in remembering it was it thought that the earlier injector failure had caused a partial hydro lock, likely weakening the rod? And that the rod bearing on that cylinder was ok, or at least not seized?).

I trust it is still running well?

[bigjae1976]

Congrats on the getting the car running again!

Couple of things...

clutch issue -

you could overextend the slave piston if you don't reset the SAC and step on the clutch pedal.

engine failure -

S65s had a bad batch of valve springs with the 2011 model year. I had one on my 2011. I was driving around town and the drivetrain malfunction came on. I would imagine that engine failure is a lot more likely at higher RPMs.

Hard to tell which cyl was which but if the bottom on the head on cyl 5 is clean then that would indicate that piston came into contact with the head.

old engine serial # -

If you check in ISTA and pull the vehicle info, you should be able to get the engine serial #. See if it matches with what's stamped on the block. At least in BMWNA, dealerships won't update the serial # if the engine is replaced.

fuel quality -

Yes, base gasoline is generally the same within a given area. Comes from the same refinery..or 2 -3 depending on location. The variables in quality are with ethanol and the additives (quality and amount).

Ethanol depends on laws - E10 can be 10%, more than 10% or less than 10%. Some states mandate at least 10%, some say no more than 10%. If you're in a state that mandates "at least" you probably have a higher ethanol content because ethanol is much cheaper and increases profit margins.

Additives - your gas could literally have zero additive in it. Gas additive is driven by EPA regulations which mandates a certain amount of "IVD" in gasoline and is reconciled on a monthly basis. A fuel terminal can load gas with no additive and then add a bunch of additive to a couple of loads at the end of the month. So if it balances out on a monthly basis...good to go! What typically happens is an injector malfunctions while the fuel tanker is being loaded so that particular load will get no additives.

Top tier is also mandated by EPA - requires an additional amount of additive. Each company might have their own proprietary additive (shell, exxon, bp) and others will use a generic additive (walmart, costco, non-branded gas).

I know Shell closely monitors additive injection by load. That's what makes them the best.

So yes, brand of gas makes a difference.

AGAIN! Awesome work getting her running again!!!

[jvictormp]

Originally Posted by Assimilator1

jvictormp

I can't remember what the final thoughts were on what caused your engine failure now (I don't fancy trawling through 11 pages either ). I want to update the 'blown engines' thread list.

Could you update the op with the latest info?
(actually, am I right in remembering it was it thought that the earlier injector failure had caused a partial hydro lock, likely weakening the rod? And that the rod bearing on that cylinder was ok, or at least not seized?).

I trust it is still running well?

Yes, it's running perfectly fine.

This was today:

And you're right on the root cause. I'll update the OP.

Rod bearing on that cylinder was perfect, not even a single mark on it. The other 7 cyl's rod bearings had all of them oil starvation marks on the center (due to 20 seconds of engine running without oil pressure).

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

Congrats on the getting the car running again!

Couple of things...

clutch issue -

you could overextend the slave piston if you don't reset the SAC and step on the clutch pedal.

engine failure -

S65s had a bad batch of valve springs with the 2011 model year. I had one on my 2011. I was driving around town and the drivetrain malfunction came on. I would imagine that engine failure is a lot more likely at higher RPMs.

Hard to tell which cyl was which but if the bottom on the head on cyl 5 is clean then that would indicate that piston came into contact with the head.

old engine serial # -

If you check in ISTA and pull the vehicle info, you should be able to get the engine serial #. See if it matches with what's stamped on the block. At least in BMWNA, dealerships won't update the serial # if the engine is replaced.

fuel quality -

Yes, base gasoline is generally the same within a given area. Comes from the same refinery..or 2 -3 depending on location. The variables in quality are with ethanol and the additives (quality and amount).

Ethanol depends on laws - E10 can be 10%, more than 10% or less than 10%. Some states mandate at least 10%, some say no more than 10%. If you're in a state that mandates "at least" you probably have a higher ethanol content because ethanol is much cheaper and increases profit margins.

Additives - your gas could literally have zero additive in it. Gas additive is driven by EPA regulations which mandates a certain amount of "IVD" in gasoline and is reconciled on a monthly basis. A fuel terminal can load gas with no additive and then add a bunch of additive to a couple of loads at the end of the month. So if it balances out on a monthly basis...good to go! What typically happens is an injector malfunctions while the fuel tanker is being loaded so that particular load will get no additives.

Top tier is also mandated by EPA - requires an additional amount of additive. Each company might have their own proprietary additive (shell, exxon, bp) and others will use a generic additive (walmart, costco, non-branded gas).

I know Shell closely monitors additive injection by load. That's what makes them the best.

So yes, brand of gas makes a difference.

AGAIN! Awesome work getting her running again!!!

Thanks, mate.

Kind words and great knowledge on them.

In Brazil, we have 27.5% of ethanol in all gasolines available, and the best one is Petrobras Podium, with 102 RON octane rate, and the best additive package, which, IIRC, is injected when still in refinery.

[jvictormp]

First oil change after 500km (there was one oil change right after firing the engine, but no one after driving).

Some metal shavings retained in the filter, from old engine (I hope).

I think they came from oil cooler, filter housing, and/or oil pan, cause they were cleaned up and reused.

I'll put a magnetic drain plug and buy a boroscope to inspect the oil pickups. Can anyone suggest one to me?