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03-04-2024, 08:52 AM | #2993 |
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Another photo that was posted on a Facebook group. Owner said these have 40k miles of primarily racing on them.
They look pretty good.
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2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies... |
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03-04-2024, 11:11 AM | #2994 | |
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I'm very aware of the various publications, in fact I was part of the team responsible for one of them. Now, as we have established that the OEM bearings are not too tight, maybe you want to revise your conclusions? For reference, data from BE WIKI actual measurements gives the following if we use average and not best or worst case we find all currently bearings a remarkably similar i.e. less than 0.002mm (.00008") including OEM parts. If it is a clearance issue then failures will be occurring on all brands of bearing. Run the data. I have seen failed aftermarket bearings, I'm sure if you search you will also find cases here. I do agree, they haven't failed due to clearance, in the same way many OEM bearings haven't failed due to clearance. There is more misinformation than facts on this subject. So the debate continues. |
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03-04-2024, 12:56 PM | #2995 | |
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Please show me a case where a properly sized bearing has been the cause of engine failure in the S65.
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2011 E92 M3 - 6MT, ZCP, ZF LSD, ESS G1, Some other goodies... Last edited by Scharbag; 03-04-2024 at 03:05 PM.. |
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03-04-2024, 01:14 PM | #2996 | |
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And if I am understanding the Mahle paper correctly, maybe that coating coming off is just normal bearing behaviour and not a cause for concern anyway. Anyway, I dont have much of a horse in this race, I dont feel like changing my bearings to BE is going to cause my engine to explode, but lets be honest about how much data we have about "good" looking aftermarket bearings coming out of engines. What is it, 0.1% (being pretty generous here) as many photo examples as we have of used OEM bearings? The OEM ones don't visually look great coming out of engines especially with high miles but SOME of them actually do look alright, I think it would be silly to say that isnt the case, unless we saw as many aftermarket ones come out and had just as many visual examples, the 3-5 images of used ones I have seen seem to have a looooot of faith riding on them. Just some food for thought. I still am of the opinion that I havent seen many factory bearings come out "looking" good. Whether or not they were all about to fail I dont have the expertise to say. |
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03-04-2024, 03:15 PM | #2997 | |
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My OE 088/089 bearings looked about as good as you could ask for. But it is all statistics. Some people got lucky. Others got boned. Not every OE engine will blow up - that is for sure. BUT, until you look, you do not know. And given the work it takes to look, you might as well throw some proper clearance bearings in there. As for the examples of good proper clearance bearings - the sample size is minimal but promising. Also, no one has ever had an S65 blow up as a result of rod bearings when using properly sized bearings. I put my BE bearings in at 30TKM and I am now at 94TKM. Perhaps I will get bored some day and open the engine up to look. Sounds like a good winter project next year - give me a chance to replace all the suspension bushings and install some Bilstein B6s Cheers, Cheers,
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03-04-2024, 04:41 PM | #2998 |
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The goal of the BE Bearing Wiki has always been to provide accurate information in a common repository that people can use. Multiple manufacturers were allowed to proof-read what was written about their product to ensure accuracy of information. This was true for ACL and Mahle Motorsport, who both reviewed what was written for accuracy. Both suggested edits that were made to ensure the integrity of the information and to reduce the marketing spin. When newer information has come to light, the wiki has always changed to reflect that new information. Case-in-point, the change to Glyco bearings to reflect that they are a tri-metal design, not a bi-metal design as originally believed.
The wiki was always intended to provide real-world clearances from actual measurements. As time went on, some manufacturers began publishing shell thicknesses, which made it possible to calculate theoretical clearances. So, the BE wiki began adding theoretical clearances in addition to measured clearances. The latter allows the reader an added point of reference and comparison. The point is there can often be a difference between theoretical clearances and real-world/measured clearances. Now that Paul has posted updated information about the origins of OE bearings, the wiki will soon reflect that new information as well. Ironically, if you use google today and search for the Clevite stamp on the bearing shell, you may find multipole "<CL>" being posted. It's a very reasonable assumption, even if it is incorrect. In Paul's case, there should be 100% confidence of his information on this topic because it also includes the other markings ("113") from the drawing as seen on the bearing shell. |
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03-04-2024, 04:47 PM | #2999 |
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Can you please provide the shell thicknesses and shaft diameter that went into these calculations. Neither are published by BMW, and both are necessary to allow people to understand how these numbers were derived. Since you have a copy of the blueprint, both will be on there.
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03-05-2024, 06:25 AM | #3000 | |
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03-05-2024, 06:33 AM | #3001 | |
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As a side note, just to be clear it was Allen who did the calculations and provided the data before I had the print. I see nothing to doubt them however. As no one appears to be using OEM bearings as replacement parts, is there more value in documenting the aftermarket parts spec and tolerances? I have MAHLE Motorsport plus ACL and I have requested the tolerance from King. Outside of those there is only Clevite?. I assume they are using the same tolerance for the parts they make for multiple vendors, even if the bearing spec is marginally different? |
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03-06-2024, 12:11 AM | #3002 |
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2009 with 115,300 miles. As far as I'm aware, these are OEM.
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03-06-2024, 03:24 PM | #3003 | |
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So far their has been very few photos shown of pulled increased clearance bearings (btw I also have not seen any cases so far of increased clearance bearings pulled having failed, bar other causes).
There are a few examples I have here (also include std clearance coated bearings):- Good condition, aftermarket bearings pulled 1. Deansbimmer - (122k miles total) 52k miles supercharged with VAC/Clevite bearings (increased clearance), 14/1/20 - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1386 2. toolshed - 31k miles, BE bearings, 26/7/18 (only 1 shell shown) - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1114 3. Malek - 33.5k miles, old design VAC/Clevite (slightly reduced clearance! Also a close up of an LCI bearing), 30/12/14 - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1073979 4. maicol76 - 6-12k miles, lots of track use, VAC bearings, https://www.m3post.com/forums/attach...1&d=1522589580 5. SYT_Shadow - 25k miles on BE bearings, mostly track use. (No1 mains spun).Photos taken from 'blown engine thread pt2' - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...5&postcount=93 6. scrippy - 98k miles on WPC bearings, replaced due to cracked sumps and oil loss! Photo is poor quality, but bearings seem good. https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=612 7. akkando (from FB) - 40k miles, poor quality pics - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1947 8. Green-eggs - 4k track miles, nearly exclusively, ~1000hp!! BE bearings https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=2197 9. tlrid3r - OEM WPC shells, 48k miles, mostly track use, 15w/50! Only 2 shells shown - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=2406 10. turbotko - WPC shells, 50-60k - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=2614 11. CamasM3e93 - 65k miles, VAC Clevite, supercharged! - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=2885 12. charliev68 - 40k miles, WPC ???? - https://www.m3post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=2936 PaulGros One thing I wonder, seeing as the new Mahle MS S65 bearings have increased clearance vs OEM (and I do recall that you said they did that because of the composition they choose for their own bearings, different compositions require different clearances). I wonder what would their simulation program say the clearance should be for the OEM CL113 bearings? If it came out at 0.046mm still, then that would bolster your case for the OEM clearance not being the problem. However if it came out noticeably larger then that, then it could indicate that the OEM clearance was insufficient and contributory to the worn bearings. Quote:
The picture is a little on the small and dark side though, could you see copper on any of the bearings?
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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03-06-2024, 11:07 PM | #3004 |
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Finally got around to doing these. 2010 with 60,621 miles, factory serviced with 10w60 while it was still under the maintenance plan with the last dealer service being around 27.5k miles. The next OCI, about 5k miles, servicing it myself I switched to Mobile 0w40 for a few OCIs, also tried some LiquiMoly 5w40 for a couple of OCIs but the last couple have been Mobil 5w40. I've done 6-7 HPDEs with a few being 2-day events. I am religious about warming the car up, and ensure it gets exercised up to its 8600 redline every time I drive it. It's been running a TTFS tune since 36K miles.
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03-07-2024, 06:33 AM | #3005 | |
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Contact pressure Bearing Hoop stress Housing Hoop stress Clearances No anomalies were seen when compared to the original data. Unfortunately I can't share this data. It's interesting that your list also contains OEM WPC treated bearings. My understanding of the process is it has a negligible impact on material dimensions, yet they are showing no wear even though clearance in theory is unchanged? |
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03-07-2024, 08:29 AM | #3006 | |
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Move this stuff to your own thread, this is getting impossible to follow now. |
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03-07-2024, 09:08 AM | #3007 | |
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Move it to a new thread? I'm responding to a specific question I was asked and tagged in? |
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CSBM52845.50 Assimilator1615.50 |
03-07-2024, 09:41 AM | #3008 | |
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03-07-2024, 10:17 AM | #3009 |
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What I meant was, that this is a picture thread. EVERYONE who is discussing the technical and engineering aspects should create a new thread on that.
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03-07-2024, 02:24 PM | #3010 |
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Engine had about 27k miles on it.
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03-09-2024, 10:30 AM | #3011 |
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03-11-2024, 08:44 AM | #3012 |
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Not the case here; engine always run for about a minute or so before taking off [old school] and engine oil is religiously changed at 3k miles intervals.
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03-11-2024, 09:02 AM | #3013 | |
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Ps. Thought I was OCD with 5k interval, but there is always someone who is worse..! |
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