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11-26-2023, 09:09 PM | #2927 | |||
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https://bebearings.com/Overview.html provides a lot of good resources on why S65 bearings fail. the OEM bearing clearance (and potentially any aftermarket bearing such as VAC that maintains the same clearance, though that's up to debate) causes this issue. to summarize, Quote:
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11-27-2023, 07:26 AM | #2928 |
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... but, by increasing the clearance at the rod bearings, you're reducing oil pressure at the main bearings, potentially causing them to fail sooner. So, while the rod bearing life is increased by increasing clearance, engine life may not be-- and the part that is now failing is much harder to replace periodically (main bearing replacement is an engine out job).
After much deliberation, I put new OE (updated) rod bearings in my s85. Replacing them is an afternoon job-- like my S54, I will just do that on an interval I feel comfortable with. Too much potential risk associated with increasing their clearance, IMO.
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11-27-2023, 12:37 PM | #2929 | |
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All things considered, there have been no reports of main bearing failure as a consequence of this issue but plenty due to rod bearing failures. I disagree with your risk assessment but to each his/her own. |
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11-27-2023, 01:20 PM | #2930 | |
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The measured 4% pressure loss was before the bearings. As pointed out by IamFODI earlier in the thread, "we should remember that, for the aforementioned reasons, this means a pressure loss of at least that much everywhere else in the system – likely more at the source of the pressure loss (i.e. the rod bearings) and adjacent parts (e.g. the mains)." If nothing else, if increasing the clearance addressed the issue without consequence, why would BMW have not updated the factory parts by now? Super easy fix, and BMW does rolling fixes to address failure modes all the time, including after cars go out of production.
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11-28-2023, 02:43 PM | #2932 | |
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Does seem like a hell of a gamble, though. The S65 is one of an insignificantly small percentage of engines that call for one single, solitary oil in one viscosity. Virtually all other cars call for oil that meets a certain spec, e.g. BMW LL-01, API SN, MB 229.5, Porsche A40, etc. And for most specs, there are many oils that meet it, often in multiple viscosities, and any of them will work. No such thing for the S65. And while BMW has seemingly had no qualms about back-speccing newer, thinner oils for old engines, the S65 has been exempt. It's one of only three engines that they have insisted for 15-20+ years cannot possibly be consolidated with anything else in their lineup in terms of oil spec, including other M cars. Hard to imagine there's no technical reason for that. Last edited by IamFODI; 11-28-2023 at 06:43 PM.. |
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11-28-2023, 04:14 PM | #2933 |
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2008 E93 M3 6sp with 91k miles. Newly acquired so not sure about maintenance history. Definite wear on uppers along with some odd scoring on #1.
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11-28-2023, 06:35 PM | #2934 | ||||
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1. Collect all of the data for main bearing failures without rod bearings replaced. 2. Collect all of the data for main bearing failures with rod bearings replaced. 3. Remove all instances of supercharged engines. 4. Show us the data. Quote:
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11-28-2023, 06:40 PM | #2935 |
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People with S54 engines are still changing rod bearings periodically and BMW has never fixed the clearance issue right?
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11-28-2023, 08:53 PM | #2936 |
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WPC with ARP 2000. 40,000 miles.
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11-29-2023, 07:01 AM | #2937 | |||
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If so, that would be misguided-- engine failure would result. Quote:
If that's your criteria to move off aftermarket parts to stock parts (backwards logic, IMO), nothing is possibly going to compel you. Quote:
BMW redesigns parts ALL the time to address failure modes, including after production ends. All car companies do. All companies that make physical products do. As an example, the s54 vanos high pressure oil line fatigues under motion, causing it to crack and spray oil on the engine-- sometimes resulting in fire. BMW addressed it after e46 M3 production ended, with no recall, by adding an additional fixation point. If you buy that part today, it's no longer an issue. This is something that could literally set cars on fire, and they changed it with no recall. The recall cost would also be quite cheap-- less than an hour of labor to do the job. Much cheaper recall cost, much higher consequences if the part goes bad, they still updated the part and did not feel compelled to recall. S65 Engine failure pales in comparison. Or, more contemporarily, the S85 went through 3 major revisions over its production run to address failure modes. At no point did BMW recall earlier S85s to update parts to later versions, even though updating them "admitted guilt".
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11-29-2023, 03:39 PM | #2938 | |||||
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11-30-2023, 07:42 AM | #2939 | ||
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Data that S54s spin rod bearings, left unchanged? I'm pretty sure even instagram knows that's a regular S54 failure mode.
e46 M3 "big 3" that everyone talks about needing to be addressed when you buy one-- subframe, vanos, rod bearings. https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=e46+m3+big+3 Rod bearings, which have traditional clearances on the S54, should be treated as a wear item-- or your engine will fail. S54 doesn't have as many of the "lottery" (early mileage) failures of the s65/s85, but they wear pretty linearly with time spent at high RPM. On my hard driven, routinely tracked e46 M3 coupe I replace them at 100,000 mile intervals. On my only street, sometime kid carrying M3 wagon, I was comfortable with 200,000 mile intervals. Quote:
I meant, in the absence of data, the default position should be stock. Aftermarket is the position that needs to be justified-- not stock. Quote:
1,350,000 people are killed in cars every year. People will sue over anything they think they can make a buck on, and cars are complex (many, MANY possible failure points) and dangerous. Death and litigation are just another Tuesday for car makers.
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12-01-2023, 06:27 PM | #2940 | ||||
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For the earlier type bearings, your ones weren't too bad (but not right still), I don't think I can see any copper? Quote:
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Oil Pressure: Oil pressure does seem to decrease slightly with BE Bearings. This is most likely due to the extra clearance. But the amount of decrease is between 2-3 PSI, over a 70+ PSI average. Assuming the 73 PSI average, a 3 PSI pressure drop is equal to 4% of the total. Whether it was the 5%, 30%, or 50% throttle input, the results were all the same: a 2-3 PSI drop over a 73 PSI average. This is proof positive that the S65 variable displacement oil pump is doing its job. I say a 4% drop in oil pressure is insignificant because the oil pressure is still above the min control oil pressure stated by BMW for the S65 (I have confirmed this on BMW's AIR site), which is 4 bar. ************************************************** ****************************** Regarding BMW and recalls, the point about the VANOS pipe for the e46s, that is a cheap fix for a high risk of serious harm to people in the car (i.e catching fire). So perhaps not a very good example. Replacing engines would be a very expensive recall, and whilst blown engines certainly can catch fire (but not too likely I think) and have caused accidents, I think the risk is lower than the above example (as far as a fire goes). Countering that, BMW have and are engaged in a massive recall for checking &/or replacing EGR coolers for 100s of thousands of there diesels going back 10yrs or so (I think that's just UK figures too!), and with some cars having 3 recalls and 2 EGR cooler replacements! They have to replace so many that the factories can't keep up with supply! So as a result they are only (at the moment) calling in cars to be checked, and only replacing ones which are showing signs of leaking. This must be costing them vast amounts of money, so I don't get why BMW doesn't have a recall for the S65s (unless they're already spending too much on current and recent recalls! e.g e9x battery cables and fan plugs!). BMW state the EGR cooler leak problem does carry a very small risk of fire, and in the 9 months I've been at BMW I'm not aware of one having caught fire brought to our dealer. We have replaced a good number that have leaked though. So as to why BMW haven't sorted the S65s, I'm lost! lol
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. Last edited by Assimilator1; 12-01-2023 at 07:33 PM.. |
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12-01-2023, 07:38 PM | #2941 |
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Nearly missed this amongst the discussion, they look like they're in very good condition!
Have you (or anyone) posted these bearing photos before? Do you know what bearings they are? OEM?
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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12-01-2023, 07:44 PM | #2942 | |
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First time, never been posted before. Oem bearings with WPC Treatment, over 40k miles. |
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12-01-2023, 07:47 PM | #2943 |
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Interesting, and thank you, I'll add that to my 'good bearings pulled' list.
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Oil analysis for finding wearing rod bearings?. Collation of oil analysis reports with some rod bearing photos for the M3's S65. My categorisation of pulled rod bearings in the rod bearing condition thread. My updated 'Blown engines' list. |
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12-01-2023, 11:57 PM | #2944 | |
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5% throttle: http://wiki.rcollins.org/core/images...rottle_BEB.jpg 30% throttle: http://wiki.rcollins.org/core/images...rottle_BEB.jpg 50% throttle: http://wiki.rcollins.org/core/images...rottle_BEB.jpg Last edited by Green-Eggs; 12-02-2023 at 12:03 AM.. |
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12-02-2023, 01:27 AM | #2945 |
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Rod bearings serviced at 41k miles at Bimtech / Mashimarho earlier this year in Seattle WA. Car is pre-LCI 09-2009 build date.
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12-02-2023, 07:41 AM | #2946 |
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It’s wild to me how much wear these cars have at 40k miles, my ls2s bearings had zero wear at 120k miles with 8 owners and I didn’t baby it.
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12-03-2023, 08:12 AM | #2947 | |
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12-03-2023, 08:16 AM | #2948 | |
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The high pressure oil line is a good example BECAUSE how easy/cheap it would be for BMW to recall/fix. Green Egg's point was that they won't "fix" the rod bearings because if they did so it would be admitting fault and they'd have to recall/replace all engines. My point is that they would/do not-- and gave an example of a more significant failure more that would cost them order(s) of magnitude less to recall/replace, and they still chose not to. Nothing about fixing a design forces a recall, and they elect not to even when it would cost them nothing.
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