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05-24-2011, 02:49 PM | #67 | |
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One thing is for sure though, even though your setup can be very efficient its still in the nature of the water/air setup to suffer from some heatsoak from normal use. Plenty of articles and tests have proved this. |
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05-24-2011, 03:44 PM | #68 |
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all i can say i am glad we can have a civilized conversation about this.
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Rs7 : 10.4 133.50 with a 1.7 60ft Toyo R888 F10 M5: 11.308 131.96 with a 1.9 60ft Street Tires E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires |
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05-24-2011, 03:45 PM | #69 | |
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I read plenty of other threads...and IMG is a personal friend of mine as well. He didn't come in here bashing AA...it's as simple as that!
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2016 Indi F80 M3 - SMB|Amaro | Mode Carbon | ESS | Akra EVO | KW HAS...SOLD 2012 MR e92 M3 DCT, ESS SC, Brembo BBK, BBS FI... GONE but not forgotten! 2008 AW e92 M3 6MT, ESS SC, BBS LM's...SOLD! |
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05-24-2011, 03:47 PM | #70 | |
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Regarding Air to Air Intercooling
After reading those articles I think it is fair to say that TazaM3 is simply stating that when possible an air to air system is better suited for a street car when compared to a water to air system. I agree there are other variables that need to be taken into consideration. Installation complexity has always been one of the main reasons why a lot of companies go with Air to Water systems opposed to Air to Air. The biggest thing we have run into over the years of testing is cooling down the water after it get's hot.... which is why 'Ice induced' water to air systems have been so popular over the years but we do not see that as an option for the average BMW owner. I am sure many of you who have frequented 1/4 tracks over the years have seen cars with large ice bags, etc that are used to cool down the water..
Here is a good excerpt from one of the articles from Bell. Quote:
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05-24-2011, 04:04 PM | #71 |
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Hey Guys,
In regards to making fair comparisons, this thread does lack the necessary info to accurately generate quite a few conclusions. However it does seem there are a few assumptions going on such as charger efficiency and how the chargers RPM relates to power, etc... In other words it seems there is a 'stuck inside the box' mentality especially when it comes to chargers, efficiency and like data. It seems the understanding of being different is not coming across very well as if there is a standard on what works and what doesn't and if this so called standard is not achieved then it is not efficient, etc... However, certain important variables such as adiabatic efficiency, charger gearing, wheel size or design (gears vs friction) are being thrown out... For example: A recent model (5.0 Engine) Mustang will make ~412 and redlines at ~6500. An E9X M3 (4.0 Engine) will make ~414 and redlines at ~8400. With the current mind set, the Mustang would be more efficient and the M3 would be less efficient while generating more heat to compare... However, since we are on a BMW enthusiast forum that that is not the case, the two engines are different. It would also seem that the smaller 4.0 engine has won many of your hearts as many of us drive BMW E9X M3's but many recent posts would conflict with your choice of car since the Mustang is more efficient (based on the mind set touched on above) and less expensive. So what are we doing with M3's...? It would also seem the physical size of said chargers have become the deciding factor on power... However as mentioned above a different design and gearing will allow a proper sized wheel to fit in a smaller package while providing more Torque with the option to intercool a system (air/air). While the choice to use a larger charger is a viable choice, it does provide an issue since space is of concern and forces the use of water/air cooling as that becomes your only option not a choice... |
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05-24-2011, 04:12 PM | #72 |
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A lot of the talk in here is mumbo jumbo to me and some PR talk, I say let the pudding be the proof. There are literally dozens and dozens of ESS kits out there making claimed power, while AA is still in the mists of doing so (which is not a bad thing just need time to make its mark). Both make awesome products with years and years of experience. Just let the results speak for themselves!
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05-24-2011, 04:29 PM | #73 | |
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as one of the ESS owners who tracks, I can vouch for the fact that the ESS cooling system works perfectly. while I don't have a gauge to measure IAT's, I do monitor water temp and this car does an exceptional job of shedding heat from hard track use. I would also add, more specifically to Roman's first point above, that the placement of the intake has a considerable effect on IAT's. one of the biggest draws of the ESS system for me was the placement of the air filter to draw air from outside the engine bay. in any case, you can have intellectual debates over the merits of air/water or air/air cooling, but all that matters for us is which is more effective in a the e9x M3 application. Roman has posted plenty of information before on IAT's relative to ambient temp - those are the numbers that count. |
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05-24-2011, 04:47 PM | #74 | |
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you stated in the past that your kit doesnt need water/meth and its only for cooling/addintional cooling so why do you need water/meth cooling if your cooling system is fine? |
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05-24-2011, 04:53 PM | #75 |
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i think each kit is awesome, there is not a certain way to make a kit. Each company will defend their product because they spent countless hours working hard to try to please us enthusiasts who want more power. I don't think anyone can say "one" kit is better than other or more "efficient". Each kit is making power and proving itself worthy to be on a E9X M3.
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Rs7 : 10.4 133.50 with a 1.7 60ft Toyo R888 F10 M5: 11.308 131.96 with a 1.9 60ft Street Tires E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires |
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05-24-2011, 04:57 PM | #76 | |
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Rs7 : 10.4 133.50 with a 1.7 60ft Toyo R888 F10 M5: 11.308 131.96 with a 1.9 60ft Street Tires E90 M3: 11.2 126.7 with a 1.8 60ft Street Tires |
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05-24-2011, 04:59 PM | #77 | |
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None of our systems are required to run meth. We offer meth as an optional upgrade for stage 2 kits and recommend it for 91 octane cars. If you refer back to this thread you will find more information. http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=535345 Even on the systems with meth we do not tune dependent on the meth and we are aware there is power being left on the table by not doing so. Keep in mind when comparing these systems no where does anyone address heatsoak, how to prevent it, power loss associated with heatsoak, etc... Another member said it best.... There are a good amount of kits here on the forums and out in the world and you, the consumer have the ability to choose the one that best suits your needs... Best Regards, |
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05-24-2011, 05:01 PM | #78 | |
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Just enjoy your cars everyone |
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05-24-2011, 06:04 PM | #80 |
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Omar/Jean,
Quick question for you guys: What kind of intercooling system is utilized in the following OEM, high-boost, forced induction cars? BMW F01 750i BMW F10 550i BMW X5 50i BMW X6 50i BMW X5M BMW X6M BMW F10 M5 MB SLR MB AMG 65 Twin Turbo V12 MB AMG 63 Twin Turbo V8 MB AMG 55 V8 kompressor Jaguar XKR V8 kompressor Ford GT Ford Mustang GT500 Corvette C6 ZR1 I think you need to call the heads of R&D at BMW, BMW M, MB AMG, Jaguar, GM and Ford and teach them a little forced induction engineering because it seems they do not know what they are doing.. What they do seem to know is not to block off virtually all air supply to the engine radiator and use a pathetically underdimensioned kompressor, spinning it way over max rated RPM while developing large amounts of heat and hoping it will last at least until the warranty period is over. None of their cars seem to lose all power in the last 500RPM of the power band from a completely saturated blower either? I think they need some engineering input guys as this does not seem right following your logic or lack thereof.. Last edited by AJ@ESS; 05-24-2011 at 06:13 PM.. |
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05-24-2011, 06:28 PM | #82 | |
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Spoken like a true Gentleman... |
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05-24-2011, 06:35 PM | #86 |
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I too can make a list of cars that use air to air intercoolers... See where this is going... I guess BMW dropped the ball on the 335 and 1M too.
You should mention that some of the cars mentioned have a similar issue. Lack of space. Also rear engine cars tend to use and air/water due to the location of the engine... It's a real shame we can not have a civil discussion... Great post BTW... DBTG. Last edited by Jean@ActiveAutowerke; 05-24-2011 at 06:42 PM.. |
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05-24-2011, 07:06 PM | #88 |
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That's what I call European hard knocks intellect !!
And yes spoken like a true gentleman , bullshiting and beating around the bush is for woman!! There's two things in this world 1) right = works 2) wrong= doesn't work What side ofthe fence are you on ?? |
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