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11-24-2009, 12:03 PM | #177 |
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If so then I would agree, torque wouldn't be an issue. But frankly I don't think the majority of people drive that way most of the time and my example is the more common.
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11-24-2009, 12:09 PM | #178 |
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You guys are missing the point. Yes the M3 has to be pushed a bit to move it around, but that is part of what makes the car so much fun to drive. If you want lazy power, get a C63 or mod up a 335. What you will get is a car that is every bit as fast (or faster), but gets there with less emotion. It's just too easy. Where in the M3 revving up through 8400 rpms is magical. A lot of us like it this way. Please stop asking BMW to change it.
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11-24-2009, 12:17 PM | #179 |
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11-24-2009, 12:33 PM | #180 | |
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Considering M3's gearing where 3rd gear goes up to whopping 100 mph due to the 8400 rpm redline, it would be silly to use 3rd gear at only 30 mph in M3 to pass behind a group of slow cars. 2nd gear is what would make sense considering how M3 is geared and it could easily blast past all cars without any efforts. Now if the final drive was 4.1:1 instead of 3.8:1 then it would be a different story. Heck, I don't even do that in my 330 to use 3rd gear at 48 KM/H to pass other cars.
Case in point, every car is geared differently making the optimum acceleration different in different cars. Quote:
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11-24-2009, 12:42 PM | #181 | |
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11-24-2009, 12:53 PM | #182 |
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I disagree. Again it depends on which definition of faster you use, in a single gear, yes, always; across muliple gears, maybe yes, maybe not, depends on the specific car. Please have a look at the lengthy debate on this topic elsewhere on the forum. In addition don't forget that even now both the 6MT and M-DCT are pretty traction limited in 1st gear.
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11-24-2009, 12:53 PM | #183 |
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There is nothing "straw" about it. You are either cruising in 3rd and you should downshift, or you are already in 2nd (not hard to believe at 3600RPM) and you simply put your foot down.
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11-24-2009, 12:57 PM | #184 |
4th down; 4th quarter? Renegade.
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11-24-2009, 12:58 PM | #185 | |||
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Guys, I get the point, but people really drive the car that way? Hmm, okay. It's not what I see in my group of buddies who have cars with these engine characteristics. (Heck, my wife will automatically downshift....) That said, if "most people" would be in third and try overtaking they're going to be really unimpressed with the results. I'd be in 2nd gear at 30 MPH for any overtaking; I'd never think of third, it's just a habit to downshift as part of the overtaking procedure or wanting to get any semblance of performance out of this car. Maybe it's my years of driving my old DD (95 Integra GSR 5MT) that "trained" me do this (and maybe most people have different habits). In the Integra GSR you'd just bog and die in 3rd trying to overtake. That's kind of what happens, albeit to a lesser degree given the larger engine, in the M3. I had a 335 for awhile, and while the low-end torque was there I was always dropping the thing into higher revs (habit) to overtake and then kind of disappointed as the car ran out of steam in the higher revs. The car just didn't "feel right" to me. The higher-revving nature and characteristics of the M3 engine are the primary reason sold the 335 and bought the M3 (handling and the damn HPFP being the other two). Just as others here are disappointed in the low-end torque of the M3, I was disappointed in the top-end power and punch of the 335 (which is the polar opposite of the low-end torque disappointment that seems to be the heart of this thread). I guess it’s all about what makes an enjoyable driving experience for people. If low-end torque is desired and suits the driving style then this car isn't a good fit (just as the 335 was not the car for me). There's nothing wrong with that, it’s just a fact. It’s the same as saying you don’t want to drive an X5 or some other vehicle with very different characteristics from a GT/sports-car. There are plenty of other options out there for those who prefer lots of low-end torque that are just as good as the M3 (and probably "better" if they give you an engine that suits your needs). The best bet if the M3 isn't a good match is to sell it and get something that better suits driving style/preferences. Last edited by Finnegan; 11-24-2009 at 01:24 PM.. |
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11-24-2009, 01:01 PM | #186 |
4th down; 4th quarter? Renegade.
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11-24-2009, 01:33 PM | #187 | |
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I'd venture to say it's all about driving style/preference. If a person wants the car to do X and it doesn't, they won't be happy. That's fine and there's nothing "wrong" with that. (I don't like cars that have no top-end and have low redlines...it's a prefererence.) This car and its engine characteristics are not a good match for the person who wants low-end torque. That's cool. But that's a driver preference and not a "failing" of the car or its engine. Last edited by Finnegan; 11-24-2009 at 01:54 PM.. |
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11-24-2009, 01:54 PM | #188 | |
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11-24-2009, 02:02 PM | #189 | |
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And yes, that's just me! It's driver preference, and it's why I'm driving the M3 now and not the 335. Nothing "wrong" with the 335 or low-end torque, it's actually a nice motor (aside from the HPFP), good performance/economy. It's just that it's not my bag.... Anyone else feel like this is the perennial 6MT vs. DCT discussion in a different wrapper? (I noticed that when I started writing about "working the car, user involvement, etc.") They're both about "preference" IMO. Heck, I have a DCT now (formerly 6MT) and here I am talking about "involvement" while driving the DCT in the M3. Irony! |
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11-24-2009, 02:37 PM | #190 |
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Yeah! The M3 def makes me miss my EVO, I was putting down 330 AWTQ. Hopefully I can regain some of that feeling with boltons for the M3.
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11-24-2009, 03:24 PM | #191 |
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11-24-2009, 04:03 PM | #192 | |
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11-24-2009, 05:04 PM | #193 |
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You should maybe see this thread by Nawaz who came from a modified Evo IX. His modded M3 is now making ~500 HP crank and he does not seem to miss his Evo's low end:
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=322545
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11-24-2009, 05:04 PM | #194 |
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11-24-2009, 05:22 PM | #195 |
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If they did, there would not be enough of a market to support even having an M3 Seriously though, why would one want to drive at 5K+ in day to day driving to get good performance. Yes it is fun every so often, but (and this is especially true for those with aftermarket exhaust) your looked at sideways by almost every other driver out there when in the 5K+ range and whether your driving good or not, just the noise people take the wrong way and think you are being an ass. Again nothing wrong with a high strung motor, but at least give it enough TQ to be fun and rewarding without having to spend your day at 5K+
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11-24-2009, 05:30 PM | #196 | |
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Bottom line: The power band is really the torque band in any given gear, and when you're pretty high up on the torque curve (Look Martha! There's the horizon!), everything is good here in Pleasantville. In short, it's a pretty fuzzy thing, and it gets fuzzier when you realize the driver is not only reacting to acceleration, he or she is reacting to noise. You know how footie describes the last 1200 rpm in the M3? I've felt that myself, and it's a real thrill. Feels like right up there is where the one true power band is, but even though the M3 has an amazing torque curve that I've described with breathless prose awhile back, the car was pulling harder just a second or two before that magic last 1200 rpm that rang your chimes. It's just that it's making this terrific noise that gives you chills and raises the hair on the back of your neck. You'll also read about or hear about "the meat of the power band". Yup, it's just torque. Bruce PS - I personally believe that many folks feel as if the M3 is a little soft on the left-hand side of the tach because the really good noises don't start until you reach the right-hand side of the tach. It's not just acceleration you feel, it's the entire experience, including the crescendo in the last 1200 rpm. Capiche? |
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11-24-2009, 05:32 PM | #197 | |
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Having own 3 C5 Z06's I can tell you for a FACT that the Z06 is superior in every performance way, with higher limits in every performance catagory plus it weighs 300 to 400lbs less. Here are a few numbers from the C5 Z06: 405hp / 350hp corrected SAE dynoed at the wheels 405tq / 350tq corrected SAE dynoed at the wheels Weight: ~3150lbs 0-60: 3.9 seconds Lateral g= 1.06 From numbers/stats and my real world experience the Z06 beats the M3 by a good margin. This is all performance mind you, we all know the fit and finish and material quality is not the same. However they are two different classes of cars. The M3 is a GT, the Z06 is a true sports car
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11-24-2009, 06:40 PM | #198 |
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I can't attest to the numbers but the poster was referring to multiplied torque. The Corvettes have much taller gearing. Intuitively, the M3 would be putting down more thrust than a garden variety C6 since it's heavier but accelerates just as fast up to 150 mph or so.
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