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12-17-2008, 09:10 PM | #89 |
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12-17-2008, 10:23 PM | #90 |
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The new Moton twin tube is on my list if cost was no object and they will certainly excel at working with this high motion ratio rear suspension. The Dinan setup seems okay for modest upgrade but only in the spring rates where known. I doubt they did anything but scaled the stiffness slightly so you would maintain the same handling qualities (you need to ask them). I would not be surprised if they don’t offer some JRZ RS soon as well like they have for all M3 in the past.
It might be good time to tell Glen what you like out of system. E.g. do you want to maintain the same handling qualities but just slightly stiffer spring with ability to lower? The KW damper are reasonably good for the price point but based on the spring I wouldn’t buy them as is but because I like the handling of the M3 just the way it. It is hard to make better what is already very good. Orb |
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12-17-2008, 10:30 PM | #91 | |
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Your calculations are based on what BMW uses not using ones own calculations to improve. The basis you use could be applied to ALL applications?? Whether the application is for a M3, 335, Honda S2000, Ford Expedition... There is more than just spring rates, have you taken into account the valving of the shocks? Let alone from all the various manufactures? Different rim sizes (width & diameter) & tire set ups (compounds, sizes), tire pressures, sway bar diameters, strut bars, weight inside the car (people, junk in the trunk or lack thereof, aerodynamics along with everything else) (if you want to get technical)) My comment about physics is stating KW is actually measuring/testing it versus your calculations based on factory specs. You are trying to maintain the same calculations with a multiple instead of trying to improve/change the characteristics which means you like how the factory car acts/reacts. Keep in mind that YOUR driving style is different from someone more advanced (or less). Most people don't push their car to the limit so having something that is not well suited is useless. Try the race set up, see how you like them apples if that is what you are aiming for. Tools are limited to doing a specific job, variations need to be made for change/improvements. Do you know what a 7-post rig is? That is a machine that can simulate driving conditions of any track/road condition (very few suspension manufactures have it). Please go on as you must think that you are the know all & end all . With the information posted by you, you should start a suspension company that would shut the competition down Heavy Under Steer?? Get a roll cage to improve structural rigidity, some slicks, race specific alignment... like the car in BMW-M-Mexico's signature & tell us how it drives Will make a couple more posts regarding your previous comments |
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12-17-2008, 10:43 PM | #92 |
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12-17-2008, 10:50 PM | #93 | ||
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Finally back from my nice holiday! I can see that the lap I (did is) discussed all over the web. I can give you the following statement. “After changing the suspension on the Loaded-BMW, from BZZXXN to a full race-kit from KW, I finally could get around the Nordschleife without risking my life… Now we found a fantastic balance in the car and I could use the grip in the tyres in a good way. It was a great step forward of the development of the car.” Best regards Richard Do you know the Ferrari Formula 1 team gathers information from winning races & puts that into road cars - same thing with KW Quote:
To imbalance a perfect car? You think they use the same numbers with a multiple to improve handing? |
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12-17-2008, 10:54 PM | #94 |
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12-17-2008, 11:57 PM | #96 | |
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I’m not sure you even understand testing at all. You test to validate your assumption or design with a purpose or it is absolutely useless. This should be very clear. The 7 post rig is impressive but it only as good as the engineer using it. If we have an inherent design flaw in the suspension that needs addressing do you think this may be discovered using this machine or will one design the suspension upgrade with the inherent flaw. It is not a magical machine but yet another very useful tool. I can understand improving the design with softer rear springs as this will give the car better turn but it will take longer to take set. This can be very fast on the track for those whole like to pitch in the car with complete abandon and can live with a bit of under steer at the apex. The issue we are looking at is a very large change in biasing of the front and rear suspension stiffness. It is not trivial and will cause significant under steer. It can not be dismissed. I suggest we pose a question to the forum on how people would by a new system make the car under steer more. I doubt many M3 owners will but it their choice not ours. Glen said he would address this comment so why can't we let him do that without you being an as# and stirring things up because you’re pissed off. Your other post are…well, just angry so I kind just laughed and they seem kind of pointless without any information. It is very clear what your motives are and they are to sell KW suspension and discredit everything in this thread because it suites your needs. I could see that in the tone in your post so you got an aggressive response in the first reply. My motives are bit more selfless.... BTW, I'm sure Glen will be impressed that you speak for him and KW North America...well done. Orb Last edited by Orb; 12-18-2008 at 12:36 AM.. |
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12-18-2008, 08:18 AM | #97 |
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Oh great Orb,
Please share more of your wisdom with us. We wish to know the magic number from the Oracle you call Excel. |
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12-18-2008, 08:32 AM | #98 |
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This thread has been very informative and helpful to a person like me who doesnt understand all of the science behind a suspension setup. Its a shame to see it turn into a pissing contest.
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12-18-2008, 09:34 AM | #99 | |
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• http://www.optimumg.com/ - Goto tech tip which has an excellent series on springs and damper. The author did not mention that damper motion ratio is squared but it is. Claude Rouelle is the person who coined the phrase “Magic Number” in my worksheet. • http://www.racing-car-technology.com.au/ - Some interesting information at this site. • http://www.fromsteve.net/ - A quick guide. The article are well written and in layman terms. Orb |
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12-18-2008, 10:08 AM | #100 | |
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12-18-2008, 10:09 AM | #101 |
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... Racecar Engineering, Consulting, Software & Seminars ...
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12-18-2008, 02:44 PM | #102 | |
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While I appreciate everyone’s enthusiasm, this thread has gone a bit out of focus. What started as a thread of a fellow Driving Enthusiast who was happy with a product he installed has been Hijacked and turned into discussion about calculations and engineering theory. My intention as the Manufacturer on this thread was to provide the correct information regarding the KW product line as well as some of our experiences in the USA on local tracks with this platform. I do not hold either Sam or Orb in contempt in this as they both have their own points of view, and do not feel insulted by either’s efforts or posts. I am not an engineer, and will never be one. Allot of this theory and number crunching is beyond me at this point, but what I do understand and respond to is Customer Feedback & Lap Times. In this thread we have some of each, so here is a summary:
From this point, the Driving Enthusiasts that are interested can debate what is best for them, but for any of us to be Ignorant to the point of view of others is 100% wrong. Without trying to sound condescending in any way, we would need to inject additional real world testing from Orb’s project to come to any sort of conclusion. I feel compelled to let this community know that the email correspondence between KW and Orb has been discontinued this morning at Orb’s request, as he believes that there is nothing we can do to help him, as he feels KW is not accepting his findings. I have disclosed all of KW’s information on our setup and telemetry on the 1 Series testing. I am awaiting our 7-post dyno data on this platform as well, and will post once I receive it. In order to continue a rational discussion, we would need Orb to produce real world testing of equal value. I would invite Orb to post his current setup and any and all information on his vehicle and its performance issues and we can discuss openly with all involved.
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12-18-2008, 05:50 PM | #103 |
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I've been a KW customer on all my cars, E46 M3, E60 M5, and E92 M3. I'm very happy with my installation and the KW Products on all my cars. I've never had one compliant, it rides like a champ, handles like a champ, Best mod I've done on my car so far.
KW ftw.
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12-18-2008, 07:14 PM | #105 | |
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My motive is to provide a very good product that we believe in. We offer Bilstein, Ground Control, Tein & other brands but we like KW the best from personal experience ~ 8 years. For the people that know me, I'm not aggressive, give credit where it is due & don't get offended - just can't stand people that "know everything". If something is better then I will be happy to admit it. I've driven various cars & know differences of bad to great, here are 2 shop pictures as examples. We like real world driving characteristics |
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12-18-2008, 11:51 PM | #106 |
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I am a customer of Sams as a matter of fact that is my SS II M3 in the picture above and it has KW V3s on it. Anyway, those of you that know him know him know its pretty hard to argue with a guy that laid back.
Glen- I only speak for myself when I say that I wouldnt know what to do with the 7 post test numbers what Im am concerned with is how much if any under steer is in this setup compared to stock and does it change the weight distribution or load transfer(cant remember what Orb said) |
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12-19-2008, 08:51 AM | #107 |
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Nice pictures Sam and am excited to see my car at your shop!!
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12-19-2008, 01:24 PM | #108 |
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Sam & Zolti - FTW
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12-19-2008, 11:35 PM | #109 |
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Clarification on KW 1 Series Testing
Before I respond to the rest of Orb’s comments, let me make a clarification about my post on the KW testing with the 1 Series that I believed to be obvious, but Orb's post tells me otherwise:
Front: 215/40/18The only tired related data that was not posted on my sheet was the tire pressures used during the test. Any and all changes made to the vehicle were listed on the image on my post. If there was no additional data, that particular item WAS NOT CHANGED. The tests were performed in order that they are listed in my last post, for review, this was:
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